[Brujah]

worry, on 20 December 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm actually gonna try that out, BK.

Okay, I'm on Book 21, Page 237 of the Spacemapper Codex. Page 231-235 were good but 236-237 have been a slog. Might switch over to my reread of Book 7, Page 321 of the Swordhumper Chronicles. You know, Paragraph 3, Words 10-65. Sexy as hell!


IMG09238048340839.JPEG

That right there is the sword I bought to hump once I'm done with the series.

Jdkdkkdkkcuhbbhduxjxjj

[Tiste Simeon]

worry, on 20 December 2017 - 11:45 PM, said:

I'm actually gonna try that out, BK.

Okay, I'm on Book 21, Page 237 of the Spacemapper Codex. Page 231-235 were good but 236-237 have been a slog. Might switch over to my reread of Book 7, Page 321 of the Swordhumper Chronicles. You know, Paragraph 3, Words 10-65. Sexy as hell!


IMG09238048340839.JPEG

That right there is the sword I bought to hump once I'm done with the series.

Uncanny.

[Silencer]

Briar King, on 21 December 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

I don’t think QTs points are unfounded though. I agree with some of it in fact. I thought the movie was fantastic though.

The only eyebrow raise I got was not wanting to watch it again. I hated BvS so much. If I was by myself I would have gotten up and left theater about an hour into it. I have rewatched it 2 or 3 times now and don’t hate it as much.

I don't think many of them are unfounded either. As per my original post on the subject, I have issues with the film. The list of problems I have seems longer than the list of things I liked. But most of the problems were small and were not significant portions of the film. I liked it overall and there were plenty of scenes I liked. Like I said, I can see how and why QT doesn't like the film I just think he's going a bit far to say he hated it and I think he is misplacing his blame on this film and Rian (which I believe he admitted to some extent as well).

I reckon if QT gives it a year and watches it again straight after TFA without the pressing spectre of Twitter bashing him for his opinion he'll come around. But that is just a guess based on our previous conversations.

[Cause]

Salt-Man Z, on 20 December 2017 - 07:16 PM, said:

The Tico sisters' medallions were just that: medallions that they wore as sisters. Thus Rose cherished hers because it reminded her of her sister and her sacrifice.

I agree that Finn's potential sacrifice was likely going to be wasted; everyone was telling him to get out of there because he was going to be killed. But it doesn't matter whether he would have succeeded or not: Rose's point was that they needed to stop sacrificing themselves, period.

He should have made it though. A ton of metal or a ton of melted metal should have hit that cannon.

In any event that episode was a huge fail for me, made worse by the fact that it was supposed to indicate character growth. Po succeeded in his suicide run in the films beginning and took out a dreadnaught but lost 80% of his fleet, then he failed in his mutiny. Not a new suicide mission crops up and he realizes its more important not to waste lives and to live another day. Except this time they are trapped! He cant know that yoda is talking to luke. None of the outer rim allies have returned their hyper space phone call. Their gate is about to breached my mini deathtube. It was not a case of deciding not to seek glory and choosing to save lives it was choosing to die huddled in a cave rather than try to fight. If that was Po's character growth moment they destroyed his character worse than I had already thought. I mean he was already a mutineer and an unsuccessful one. Yet its okay, the admiral likes him. Most militaries kill mutineers.

[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 21 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

I reckon if QT gives it a year and watches it again straight after TFA without the pressing spectre of Twitter bashing him for his opinion he'll come around. But that is just a guess based on our previous conversations.

I won't watch it again.

[rant]

I mastered multi-quotes!

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

A lot of the EU was chaff...but there were bright shining beacons of excellence in there too. That said, I wholly agree that the basic structure of it is SO much better than what Disney has given us.

And not getting Jaina is the biggest pill I have to swallow. She was always my fave character.

Can I also be annoyed that we don't get the Hapes Consortium and badass Jedi Tenel Ka who made her lightsaber hilt form a rancour tooth?!

Hapes was awesome. Basically any of the self-ruling civilizations that implied it would be impossible to have a monolithic galactic ruling body (republic OR empire) added a lot of texture that I really appreciated. Plus, space Amazons.

Briar King, on 20 December 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

I forget Tenel Ka's hilt was some kind of bone. Not sure what.

No Jaina is shit(double for me and mine)

The final fight between Jaina and Caedus was one of the only things I really appreciated out of the books following the NJO. It was so brutal, like a back alley street fight rather than the gentlemen's duel force user fights typically are.


The more I think about the over-arching EU, the more I appreciate it. Jacen's meta-story is kind of intriguing, particularly the early characterization.

[QuickTidal]

I feel refreshed for more conversation today, let's do this.

worry, on 20 December 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Couldn't disagree more with this point. The motif throughout, from stopping Poe's coup to stopping Finn's "sacrifice", is to end these sentimental (in a macho way) but ultimately meaningless 'heroic' gestures.

Sacrifices are made...Holdo and Luke. Even Rose's sister in a micro sense. But that latter, in a macro sense, is a reflection of Poe's grandstanding, his glorying in war. Was her life his to spend? In a purely military hierarchic sense, sure I guess, but aren't they supposed to be fighting for a post-war galaxy? For people?

Finn's actions were a middle finger to the First Order, obv., but they weren't really an act of sacrifice for others. He had given up hope.

Rose's reasons are anti-futility, anti-machismo, anti-despair and thus, anti-Dark Side.

And would you like to know my problem with that thought line in the script?

This is high space fantasy. Not some nihilistic diatribe on "life" or "failure". The point of it was always the Allies beat the Nazis, sometimes at great cost.

Yes, Poe is a flippant, and hot-headed leader...but those same people won the original galactic civil war, head among them Han Solo.

Re: Endor bunker/shield mission: "That's a suicide mission, I didn't want t speak for you pal"

Re: ROGUE ONE...the Rogue One team pulls EXACTLY what Poe pulls. They go against Rebellion orders, and assault the Scarif Imperial base...getting whole swathes of Rebels killed, above and below. How on earth is that different?

I'm sorry, I don't see it. All I see is Rian Jonhson wanting to make some social commentary on "war" in a move called fucking Star WARS.

polishgenius, on 20 December 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

And, I mean, the opening does make clear that even though Poe's attack 'worked' it cost them more than it gained them and he shouldn't have gone through with it.

See my reply above. I fail to see the difference between the assault on Scarif in ROGUE ONE having major casualties as a result of going against Alliance plans, for a reward....and Poe going against Resistance plans, for a reward, and having major casualties result.

One is apparently fine. The other is not?

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

This, especially as it was made explicit with the Dreadnought - it was one of many. And *Finn* recognised the door-buster on sight, meaning that there presumably are more of these devices around- possibly even waiting to be dropped onto the planet the second the first one is destroyed.

Utter speculation. Sorry. Nowhere in the narrative is it evident that "they had another waiting". Finn's recognition of it just shows he knew what it was is all, and if I want to double down on that..Finn is not about to try to sacrifice himself to take out a thing he "thinks" they might have another one of waiting above to be dropped. There would be zero point. Nopers. Doesn't work with the story as it played out.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

The sacrifices are explicitly pointed out to be hollow and short-term.

In Rian's narrative, sure. But not in ANY canon Star Wars media that has ever come before. Biggest, I'd say is the ROGUE ONE story. But even a bunch of things in the OT speak of sacrifices that have longstanding results. The idea that they are short-lived is all invented in Rian's head because he went for nihilism.

That's fine.

That's not high space fantasy Star Wars.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Sometimes that is what's needed to help everyone else get away, but too often it's the choice the small and dwindling number of Resistance fighters take to "win" a battle, a strategy that both will ultimately lose them the war and make the war they're fighting pointless, because everyone they were fighting for will be dead.

Again, this not the result of organic storytelling, it's the result of the story that JJ and RIan (and I guess Kat Kennedy) wanted to tell, so they forced it. The First Order is a dialled back Empire. The Resistance is a small band of rebels going agsint Republic orders to fight the First Order (who the New Republic don't think is a threat), and the New Republic that everyone fought so hard for in the OT? They are small (5 planets...in one system is I think how TFA paints it....which ain't exactly a Republic), stupid (their entire navy is apparently all located in one system that the First Order blows up? Genius. Military Genius folks!), and taken out in the middle of TFA.

Just because they WANTED to set the story back to the OT default (Empire VS Rebels) doesn't mean that it was a smart idea, or that any choices they are forced to make as a result make any more sense.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

And yes, I think someone upthread nailed it QT - your rage at this movie seems unfounded, because you yourself point out that JJ did not have a plan or vision for this film.

You think was asked to? I doubt it. It sounds like Kat Kennedy asked him to script this one, and said "Someone else will write #2" as I THINK Rian was hired while JJ was till scripting.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Which means all those "Mystery Boxes" that he loves to set up had no point, yet. And knowing JJ, they would never have paid off anyway.

He set them up., I have no idea what his plans were for the payoffs...but it was Rian Johnsons JOB to pay them off, and he refused. That's such a childish, asshole thing to pull when asked to script a sequel that I can't imagine.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

He's not good at that. It all goes back to LOST and the 10 million pointless mysteries that were asked but not answered or were cheap misleads.

LOST's "answers" were handled by Damon Lindelof, not JJ Abrams. Abrams had very little to do with the show after Season 1. I'm fine with the notion that JJ is not great at ending things (I like most of his movie endings, though)...but this prevailing example of LOST is so wrong, and shows how people just want to blame one guy for the show's supposed failings...and they always pick the wrong guy.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

For example: why make such a big deal out of Rey's parentage? Because JJ. That's why. Not because he had something in mind.

That's odd. He specifically said in an interview that he did, and he even told Daisy about them. Your'e putting words into his mouth and thoughts into his head to drive some sort of agenda about how JJ screwed all this up. I admit his mistakes were the initial ones...but Rian was supposed to add meat to the bones. He didn't.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

But because he wanted to set up a Mystery Box that he didn't even know the contents of. It's what JJ does.

Not true. His film mystery boxes have always been satisfactory explained. Otherwise it would not work at all. People not being SATISFIED with those contents is another thing, and I get that, but it's not the same as "now knowing what's inside".

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

I think Rian did the right thing by fixing those up a bit.

He either ignored them, or treated them like flippant garbage.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

And he made a great movie with it.

He made a decent movie, with LOTS of plot and narrative holes...but he did NOT make a good Star Wars movie. Not by a long shot.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

And I loved TFA, too. They definitely work well together, though, I don't know what you're on about saying you don't think they follow each other. :S

When the second movie actively dismisses most of the major plot points of the first movie...they don't work well together. At all.

[rant]

Briar King, on 21 December 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

The Holdo/Poe thing is to me made sense. From her POV it didn't make sense to include Poe in on the plan. Leia slaps and demoted Poe for not following orders and getting the entire bomber fleet killed. Then there is the utter shock of FO being able to track them in hyperspace spy angle. Why take the chance? Who's to say that he would have gone along with her plan if he was in the know? It doesn't matter if she actually likes him. It made sense the way it played out to me. People really seem to hate this part of movie.

The problem I have is that to execute her plan, she HAD to trust some people to make it happen. Poe had just initiated a plan that resulted in the destruction of a major piece of FO military hardware......he seems like he could be trusted....even if just not to do something idiotic (like he did).

If we'd had a scene where Holdo explained the plan to her trusted advisors, or mused on how maybe they shouldn't trust Poe (his plan also resulted in the loss of all their bombers and most of their fighters.....maybe a FO spy would consider that an even trade given the Resistance's dwindling resources), or how he's reckless etc, I'd be satisfied. Instead we have the old plot contrivance of noone told me so I did something stupid.

Hell, they could have even had Poe go to Holdo, explain his plan...and she's like do it. That way she has two ways of saving their people.

[QuickTidal]

Also, to Rant. I saw one person mention that the Mandalorians would have been great villain for this series of films. A New Republic VS the Mandos post-Dark Saber ascendance to their own kingdom. It would have been an ideal set off political circumstances to set the new trilogy!

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

In Rian's narrative, sure. But not in ANY canon Star Wars media that has ever come before. Biggest, I'd say is the ROGUE ONE story. But even a bunch of things in the OT speak of sacrifices that have longstanding results. The idea that they are short-lived is all invented in Rian's head because he went for nihilism.

That's fine.

That's not high space fantasy Star Wars.

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

He made a decent movie, with LOTS of plot and narrative holes...but he did NOT make a good Star Wars movie. Not by a long shot.

I think these are an interesting set of points to talk about. What is a Star Wars film? I mean, I have an idea....earlier in the thread I mentioned that I believed Star Wars was almost a genre unto itself at this point. So what are the defining characteristics of a Star Wars story?

Is it the aesthetics (lightsabers, x-wings/tie fighters)?

You mention earlier that a defining characteristic is the Allies defeating the Nazi's even if it is at great cost.......does that one story have to be repeated over and over again? Because then it doesn't matter if its JJ/ KK or some other pair in 100 years.....every new trilogy they'll be resetting everything to the OT parameters with new faces/ titles (how many ways can you say rebellion?)

I'm not interested in that.

Is it the monomyth that Lucas is so enamored with? Because I'm not super interested in seeing Luke's hero's journey repeated over and over .

I mentioned in one of my first posts that I liked the turn Rian did with Luke, because it gave me really strong impressions of the original Dune series, and Herbert's criticism of blind hero worship. Our heroes are human, imperfect, and failures.

One of the things I was really excited about when Disney got Star Wars were the side movies they were putting out. I was excited to see a buddy cop Star Wars movie, or a movie that fully leans into Star Wars' western undertones (but in space!)....or a Star Wars heist movie...etc., etc. etc.....but if all of these are deviating from some underlying Star Wars genre....are they still Star Wars movies? Does that matter? Or does it only matter for the "Episodes"?

Genuinely asking lol.

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

And I loved TFA, too. They definitely work well together, though, I don't know what you're on about saying you don't think they follow each other. :S

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

When the second movie actively dismisses most of the major plot points of the first movie...they don't work well together. At all.

Ya I agree with this...the pieces don't fit well.

[rant]

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Also, to Rant. I saw one person mention that the Mandalorians would have been great villain for this series of films. A New Republic VS the Mandos post-Dark Saber ascendance to their own kingdom. It would have been an ideal set off political circumstances to set the new trilogy!

That'd be cool. I haven't kept up with Clone Wars or Rebels, so I'm unclear on the Cannonicity of the Mando's culture now. The last thing I remember is Obi-Wan loves a mandalorian queen (who isn't Mandalore, which bothered me) or something I think?

A cool premise would have been sort of what the later books focused on. The Galactic Alliance or New Republic or whatever, seeing itself tilting towards tyranny etc. in response to member states rejecting increased central control, a resulting civil war that was actually a sad war that wasn't a good vs. evil war from an external observers (our) perspective....but could be painted that way outside of it.

Well really, any premise other than an exact carbon(ite) copy of the OT would have been cool for me.

[QuickTidal]

rant, on 21 December 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

Also, to Rant. I saw one person mention that the Mandalorians would have been great villain for this series of films. A New Republic VS the Mandos post-Dark Saber ascendance to their own kingdom. It would have been an ideal set off political circumstances to set the new trilogy!

That'd be cool. I haven't kept up with Clone Wars or Rebels, so I'm unclear on the Cannonicity of the Mando's culture now. The last thing I remember is Obi-Wan loves a mandalorian queen (who isn't Mandalore, which bothered me) or something I think?

A cool premise would have been sort of what the later books focused on. The Galactic Alliance or New Republic or whatever, seeing itself tilting towards tyranny etc. in response to member states rejecting increased central control, a resulting civil war that was actually a sad war that wasn't a good vs. evil war from an external observers (our) perspective....but could be painted that way outside of it.

Well really, any premise other than an exact carbon(ite) copy of the OT would have been cool for me.

Manadlore becomes the Mandalore we all know and love during late Clone Wars and early REBELS. But yeah, basically, they've ALWAYS had a problem with the Jedi (hence the darksaber being their big "you're the king" item) and they were never comfortable with the Republic or the Empire...so they are the perfect fodder for a conflict with a New Republic years later.

And I agree, the end game of a uneasy and yet united Imperial Remmant and Alliance making up the GA was a great political turn of events.

[worry]

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

And would you like to know my problem with that thought line in the script?

Hey, you didn't wait for me to answer!

I kid, I kid. While your first description on this scene was uncharitable -- perhaps deliberately so, to match your disappointment with it -- if you and I actually read the scene the same way, and you just don't like the thrust of it, fair enough. It wasn't what you wanted AND you prefer what you wanted. Can't argue with that. To me, it was a surprise for exactly the reasons you mention AND, for those same reasons, I consider it better than what I had wanted.

And now that we've fully explored the two possible opinions of this divisive film, the thread can come to a clean and mutually satisfying close. Thanks to all who've contributed.

[Abyss]

I'm particularly annoyed about the siren-walrus milk thing. JJ would have had Luke gut the thing and make steaks, but Rian had to go and change everything and have him milk it instead. And then drink the stuff raw just to piss off the fans.

[Silencer]

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

Silencer, on 21 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

I reckon if QT gives it a year and watches it again straight after TFA without the pressing spectre of Twitter bashing him for his opinion he'll come around. But that is just a guess based on our previous conversations.

I won't watch it again.

That's a shame. I hope your hatred mellows to the point where you can see it again and reconsider. Because I genuinely think you'll like it more after you've had a year to cool off.

QuickTidal, on 21 December 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

*snip*

Silencer, on 20 December 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

And I loved TFA, too. They definitely work well together, though, I don't know what you're on about saying you don't think they follow each other. :S

When the second movie actively dismisses most of the major plot points of the first movie...they don't work well together. At all.

Suffice it to say, I pretty much disagree with everything you said in this post, culminating in this. Clearly our opinions differ so much as to be irreconcilable, but hey, that's the subjectivity of movies. Though I think your point about Damon and JJ's relative responsibility for LOST is true, but it doesn't change the fact that JJ was there to start and set up a whole bunch of mysteries that just didn't pay off. And that he's done that repeatedly. You say Rian ignored them, I say he dealt with them and in a better way than I believe JJ would have, while you seem to think JJ had some amazing storytelling genius to pull off and I really think he would have disappointed most people on that. I don't have much respect for him as a storyteller to be honest, at least when he's not just doing something basic and popcorny like the new Star Trek.

But seriously, hope you give it some time and rewatch.

[Traveller]

I'm enjoying the discussions and thoughts on this movie. Quite like this piece.

https://www.avclub.c...-jed-1821472840

[HoosierDaddy]

I loved it. Saw it twice.

Fight me in real life!

[Tsundoku]

Abyss, on 21 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm particularly annoyed about the siren-walrus milk thing. JJ would have had Luke gut the thing and make steaks, but Rian had to go and change everything and have him milk it instead. And then drink the stuff raw just to piss off the fans.

Oh please, it's free range AND organic! Throw in some space-coffee beans and you have a deconstructed latte. Inner city hipsters everywhere will be inundating their local overpriced everything-free stores to get some.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 22 December 2017 - 03:14 AM

[Brujah]

http://uproxx.com/hi...oke-apprentice/

Snoke apparently trained another apprentice besides Kylo Ren?

I've never read ANY of the book material. Is this in book material?

This post has been edited by Brujah: 22 December 2017 - 03:28 AM

[Tsundoku]

This article seems to sum up and attempt to counter some of the fan disappointment here and and on a billion other sites. Thoughts?

http://www.news.com....4acb1a51e55dac0