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rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
I've yet to master the multi-quote, so apologies in advance.
No worries man, this works.
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
In summation though, I agree that a large percentage of this was a major FU from Rian to JJ...but I think the onus is more on JJ's mystery box style of story telling than on Rian's rejection of that.
I think my problem is that JJ set up what he set up, THE FORCE AWAKENS exists, and is canon...and instead of finding ways to follow that and continue the existing story in a good way, Rian rejects it outright and flat out REFUSES to make a second chapter. Everything from the "lightsaber shoulder toss" is him rejecting the story he was asked to "continue". I don't think anyone can watch TFA and chase it with TLJ and feel that they "fit" together. So Rian Johnson was hired to write the second volume in a trilogy...and he took the characters from the first one, but basically made his own First film in a trilogy. I can't fathom how Kat Kennedy was happy with that.
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
If something is set up, does it have to follow the expectations you were hoping for?
Not remotely. MY expectations don't enter into it. To pay off those plot lines in decent and feasible ways is the job of the sequel writer. If you count them out, Rian basically treats every JJ plot point as inconsequential.
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
What if this had been JJ's plan all along....built all of these nods in TFA to Rey's parentage, and then in HIS 2nd act (TLJ), the same reveal is made. Would you be angry, angrier, or placated because it was that author's vision all along. Just because you don't agree with the decision made doesn't mean there was no payoff.
JJ never planned what came next. In fact, one of my BIGGEST complaints about the whole sequel trilogy is there revelation after Rian was interviewed that there is NO overacting plan for the story. None. JJ didn't know what came next (I'm sure he had ideas about it)...and Rian doesn't know what JJ will do next either. It's a swamp of bad ideas to plan a "trilogy" of films in this manner with DIFFERENt storytellers with no crossover or oversight, and expect it to be great. Aint' gonna happen. This is why so many people LOVE shows like BABYLON 5....it had a planned beginning, middle, and end. With no drive to tell a cohesive 3 film story...what are we all invested in?
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
For example, how often does SE set our expectations and then subvert them? In my mind, that is better story telling. It is easy (lazy) imo to rest on genre conventions, and I think Star Wars as a brand is a genre almost unto itself at this point.
Absolutely. The difference here is that SE doesn't do it in one single story....he takes his time and sets up a long set of events to subvert...and he most certainly doesn't treat someone else's IP characters like garbage. Rian subverting things in this movie is stupid because no one yet knew enough about those things to CARE about them when he subverted them. Like Snoke. It works great...once. As a twisty twist....but it's such a facade that upon closer examination reveals how stupid it was to do it (leaving Kylo and Hux in charge of the FO?? I mean wot?)
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
As and aside, that was actually how I meant "Rian Johnson made the best film HE could" lol. I wasn't saying it was the best film (Star Wars or otherwise), just the best he could do, with what he was given (previous story and personal talents).
I think with the amount of almost full scenes and dialogue that he full-on CRIBBED from TESB and ROTJ so he could "subvert" them...he's not changing things as much as he and everyone else claims he is. He recreated the ROTJ Throne room scene down to the red guards and staying seated for most of it...and including dialogue swatches that are taken from that scene as well...up to and including the bad guy killing his own master...the only thing he subverts here is that Kylo doesn't turn and instead decides to be the new Emperor. It's literally the same thing...with one note changed. I shook my head, because it's also the most visually impressive scene in the film....but yeah, it's same same. I don't think you can claim you're taking the series sin new and different directions when you recreate entire sequences from the OT to serve your "twists".
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
I do think there is a meta-issue of multiple visions going on. The JJ-->Rian-->JJ train is dumb. It should have been JJ all the way through, with Rian getting his own stand-alone trilogy as is now happening. A lot of the things we're debating right now would be non-existent if JJ could have seen this trilogy all the way through.
Absolutely 100% agreed. Ic an't agree with this statement harder. Spot on.
rant, on 19 December 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:
I think what my ultimate opinion boils down to is that TFA is where things went wrong for me, and Rian did an admirable job trying to course correct into new and interesting territory.
Though I'd be most happy with a beat for beat repeat of the NJO lol, so that tell's you something about my skewed tastes haha.
Though I'd be most happy with a beat for beat repeat of the NJO lol, so that tell's you something about my skewed tastes haha.
Totally fair!
