[Mezla PigDog]

Yeah but you've never been milked.

[Cause]

Mezla PigDog, on 23 December 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

I was hoping I would sleep on it and come to a decision about the film but 4 nipples loom too large in my mind. Why couldn't it have been set up more like milking a cow than milking a human? It didn't need to be like that!

Did it bother anyone that it wasn't pasteurized?

[Tiste Simeon]

I mean, the scene was over pretty quickly. You could say it was past-yer-eyes before you knew it?

It's late and I should have gone to sleep ages ago...

[worry]

Personally I appreciated how organic that joke was.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Just saw the movie

I enjoyed it

[LinearPhilosopher]

Catching up on some of the previous discussions. I can definetly sympathise with and even agree with a lot of the objections brought up, such as the needless B plot, the decision point near the end between two important characters and what they did with Finn.

At the same time, I've kinda made my peace with the fact that this movie was not going to be an exercise in great story telling. Far from it.

Interesting thing to note.


SF debris has been doing a look at the creation of star wars and I came across an interesting slide. Rotten tomatoes went through some archives to see what critics were saying about star wars at the time of release.Though it should be noted there are some methodologically different between the two trilogies (see slide 2)it does appear as if tstar isn't exactly a critical masterpiece.

[D'rek]

Saw it this evening.

As an entertainment movie just by itself... yeah it was pretty fun. Some neat set-pieces, some pretty aesthetics, some big explosions and fun battles.

Within the context of the other Star Wars movies? TONS of plot-holes/inconsistencies, poor decisions of where the plot and characters should go, etc.

This past summer, Super Mario Odyssey came out, and some reviewers were talking about how while the game itself might be good and fun to play, it really shows off how there's no overall vision for Mario, he's just a brand that can be stapled onto anything (especially with how the game had a city level populated by non-Mario-proportioned humans, among other things). I get the feeling that Star Wars is undergoing the same thing, where it's losing any sense of consistency and overall vision, and rather is just becoming a brand name that Disney can choose to tag onto any sci-fi property it wants, and there's no expectation of trying to make it actually "fit" with the existing franchise aside from making sure the ships look like Star Destroyers and calling all the laser swords Lightsabres.

I mean, they even had paper in this one. PAPER! "No paper" was Lucas' number one rule!!!

[LinearPhilosopher]

Catching up on some of the previous discussions. I can definetly sympathise with and even agree with a lot of the objections brought up, such as the needless B plot, the decision point near the end between two important characters and what they did with Finn.

At the same time, I've kinda made my peace with the fact that this movie was not going to be an exercise in great story telling. Far from it.

Interesting thing to note.


SF debris has been doing a look at the creation of star wars and I came across an interesting slide. Rotten tomatoes went through some archives to see what critics were saying about star wars at the time of release.Though it should be noted there are some methodologically different between the two trilogies (see slide 2)it does appear as if tstar isn't exactly a critical masterpiece.

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[Tiste Simeon]

Hamilton speaks further about Luke, recanting his previous issues...
https://twitter.com/...3964309505?s=09

[Nevyn]

Haven't read any of the thread yet. Just saw it last nights.


Overall, it was an enjoyable popcorn movie, so big picture, it could have been a lot worse.

But I don't think I'll be rewatching it much and there were some story issues


Things I liked:

• I really like Rey's parents being nobodies. Nice lesson for an internet full of GoT and SW theorists who think every character needs hidden tie ins.
• I like that they had Kylo/Ben ditch the mask. It was iconic for Vader, but until the end of Return, Vader was not a character that really needed to emote. Becoming its own set of movies, far better to have this particular villain be able to act.
• I like that they are clearing the table setting up for a third film of Rey vs Kylo/Ben.
• I like that they have Poe learning larger tactical lessons.

Things I disliked:

• I mean, that is it for Snoke? I mean, I know they could still handle more backstory in a following picture, but that is it? It is nice to have the table set for movie as I said above, but the cost of doing that was a weird waste of a character. Where did he come from? If Kylo produces a light side opposite, why doesn't Snoke (since he didn't consider himself a consequence of Luke). You establish a guiding big bad as superpowered, and dispose of him almost comically. Luke's limited role I get. Not only is it not his story, but Hamill would probably constrain the action scenes unduly.
• I get, watching it, why they didn't reshoot to kill of Leia, although they likely could have found a way. It is always going to be a sticky problem, but they have just punted it to the next movie, where the offscreen death could cause greater story problems.
• The casino 'horse chase' was just playing games with 3D and computer graphics. Felt fake and silly and wasteful. An action beat for its own sake.
• They have kind of set themselves up in this trilogy with a bit more story than they have screen time for. The Luke/Kylo backstory could have used more buildup. The Rey "who are my parents" question went from 0 to 60 in .1 seconds. The original trilogy had its big revelations, but managed to weave them in in key moments as surprises. This one set up more obvious mysteries and questions, and carries the weight of prior characters, so has a constant tension between explaining and keeping the action going.
• Was there a valid in story reason to not tell all the captains and commanders of the rebels that they were going to sneak freighters out to a nearby rebel base? Because Finn's plan wrecks that plan, and there was no suggestion of a spy or mole. I mean, it makes a nice object lesson for Poe in following orders and having faith in his commanders. But they hid their plan from him because reasons.

Things I am on the fence about:

• I kind of like the set up of a new generation of resistance, and the more complicated ideas in the movie (like the resistance bombers being more important to the resistance than one 'fleet killer' is to the First Order, and that the next generation of rebels responding to a spark of hope being more important to winning battles, and a direction towards the dark and light side of the force needing balance. But while those are neat, grown up ideas, it is worth asking how much they actually belong in Star Wars. The original trilogy was so iconic in part through keeping it all iconic and simple. Good and evil, hope and despair, light and dark, and when you blow something up real good, that's a win. Yes, those are naive conceits, but for the style of movie they work. Sometimes it is nice having the story be polarized and simple. So this kind of feels like concepts I could have appreciate in a completely new story universe, but not the best fit in SW.
• I like my Star Wars movies having humour here and there. But I like the humour coming through chemistry and an evolving relationship between the characters. In the new movies it feels more overt and less organic. As if there was a live studio audience "laughter" sign blinking over the screen.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 27 December 2017 - 04:10 PM

[Nevyn]

QuickTidal, on 20 December 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

And I mean I get that...but I think it's the second last in a long line of narrative mistakes (that serve Rian's plot points and nothing else) that begin and end with all the resistance people failing, constantly.

From a narrative and filmic story standpoint, as the scene played out, Finn could easily have succeeded if he was not stopped by Rose. Just because everyone was telling him that he was going to die and fail, doesn't mean he was...ESPECIALLY in a film where the opening sequence had the exact same thing play out but with success (ish) where Poe is told not to try doing what he does against the Dreadnaught because it's a suicide run, that it's not going to work and he will fail. Yet he succeeds nonetheless. But he tells another character that HIS hail Mary run at the bad guys won't work... and all off the sudden what was true in the opening is not true in the closing?

I mean, it feels wrong for me to be defending a SW movie to QT , but on these points.

First, I don't think Finn really had a shot at success. His guns essentially melted. Would ramming the cannon stop it?

And the first mission wasn't really a pure suicide mission. It had a shot. The bombers getting lost in a chain reaction was a bad turn, as was Rose's sister's bomber almost failing. The concept there was not "don't go on a suicide mission you can't win", it was that sometimes even succeeding isn't worth the cost. With is why the bomber run was presented as a failure even though it succeeded (and Poe got demoted).

Rose's point is a bit different. It is less the tactical lesson for Poe, and more of an overarching moral lesson about the foundation of the rebellion being more about caring for and seeking to save one another than just trying to beat the other side.

Now as I said in my OP, that type of idea may have no place in a SW movie. And in fact it kind of flips the bird to the movies to date, where rebel lives are constantly thrown at long shot missions that just win but never fix anything longer term. He is introducing shades of great in what has always been a very black and white story.

[Nevyn]

I should also add that Johnson has left a tough task for JJ to complete the trilogy.

He seemingly told the story as if he would be the one telling all the rest of it, and now if JJ does not have the same vision, it is going to feel more like another hard thematic correction. Johnson has steered the overall narrative towards a specific type of conclusion. Setting up themes for where the resistance is headed, and the potential Rey and Kylo end game.

If JJ doesn't want to go with those themes it is going to leave TLJ as a bizarre sore thumb mid trilogy for all time.

So now all JJ has to do is kill Leia offscreen without it feeling weird, have the resistance grow through an inspired younger generation, have key resistance characters move beyond a "point and shoot" mentality while still having an action movie, and have some satisfying climax of Kylo and Rey where instead of one side winning, they either are both gone, or both individually achieve balance, and force use becomes more neutral. All with a satisfying end to the comic book villain general, and enough fun to still make it a popcorn movie.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 27 December 2017 - 04:23 PM

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 17 December 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

So I wrote up a whole long post about my feelings yesterday and my browser fucking ate it. I was pissed cause I spent a half hour on it!
Anyways, let's try again.
I want to start by saying, I liked it. I did. But the complexities of that statement are myriad, so I'll need to air them out...and I think it MIGHT sound like I didn't like it. But I did, I just have some farily glaring issues with it.

Spoiler

Let's get the things I flat out hated out of the way first.

Rian Johnson completely character assasinated Luke fucking Skywalker. I now understand why Mark Hamill so disagreed with Johnson's take on the character. Deconstructing Luke after years of failure and introspection to the point where he questions everything is fine. I get that and I knew that going in...but what he did here is turn him into someone he's not and flies in the face of his hero's journey in the OT. Luke saves the galaxy by never giving up on his father in the OT...but darkness builds in his nephew that he can sense, and he gets paranoid and decides to kill him? Fuuuuuuuuuuuck you Rian Johnson. Fuck you hard. Above and beyond that having Luke seal himself off from the Force? Jeezus, wtf? A deconstructuion of Luke is fine, but what he did here was make him unrecognizable as the person he was. Look at Obi-Wan....HIS failure was WAY greater than Luke's was...not seeing his best friend falling to the darkside and ending a multi-thousand year order? Luke comes to him and he's still got hope that somehting can be done about Vader. Luke fails with Ben and decides to seal himself off from the force to go to an island and die (then why pick one wiht a Jedi temple?) and then REFUSES to train someone who obviously wants to be a new hope for the galaxy. Then, of all things (the one thing I didn't want to happen in this movie, Rian did), Luke dies...not in battle, not for any other reason than "I won't leave this planet, so I'll do some deadly (and let's be clear it's only deadly becuase Kylo told Rey earlier in the film that such an effort would kill her) astral projection force tricks to let the Rebels get away!" Then he fades away. So let's tally. Rian turns Luke into someone he never was, and then uses him as a plot device to let the Rebels escape the FO, and also table clear the Jedi for Rey. And Luke essentially CREATED Kylo Ren by losing faith in his pprentice and nephew. It's...Just....fuck this. Fuck it.

That brings me to my second point. JJ and Rian should be having a celebrity kickboxing match against one another. JJ set up a whole bunch of plot lines and mysteries in TFA, and Rian destroys every one in the name of "subverting the narrative" repeatedly. He spends 2.5 hours DECONSTRUCTING what JJ built and treating it all like garbage. This is where I feel the "there is no overarcing narrative plan for how the new trilogy would go" REALLY hurts the thing. But yeah, let's list the shit that Rian undoes from JJ's start:

-Kylo's mask (whch I liked) is removed and destroyed in minutes of him appearing on screen.

-Rey's parents are simple junk traders (now I knew she probaly would be random, and that would be fine...but JJ made it a mystery and I have to assume for a reason. I'd lovde to know who he intended her parrents to be...as I don't think this was his intention).

-Phasma is a wet fart again. Criminally underused (since Gwen Christie is a GREAT actor) and treated as a "look, cool looking character is in the movie for 5 minutes!" and dead. She's inserted in a spot she needn't be, and used to try to peddle some narrative with Finn that never blossomed into anyhting in TFA anyways. So it dosen't land.

-Snoke. Ugh. Killing Snoke (while cool, see below) was (I'm sure) NEVER JJ's intent. It's like Rian said, well I want Kylo as the main baddie, so let's show how SUPER powerful this guy is....and then unceremoniously kill him off without every getting into his back story (and how he co-opted Ben Solo). Becuase Kylo and Hux are somehow able to run the First Order when they are no better than petulant, squabbling siblings? I mean, TFA showed us how immature Kylo is..and Rian expects me to buy that he can run the FO?

-There is no longer a chance for any endgame for the FO. Snoke's goal with the FO appeared to be domination of the galaxy like the Empire. With him gone, you only have Kylo...and Kylo's ENTIRE exsitence was about fighitng the conlfict within him and killing Luke Skywalker (and teaching/turning Rey if he got the shot). There is nothing about Kylo Ren that speaks to a larger plan of why the First Order should succed and what they would do if they did.

-The Knights of Ren are (again) entirely absent. They get (I assume) a BRIEF mention by Luke (the students Ben took with him when he left)....but otherwise are non-existent. So they are either dead....or the second damned movie to speak of them refused to show them. Since Kylo is their "leader"...they should ahve been present in both films, but ESEPCIALLY this one. And nada.

-Luke tossing his father's lightsaber....one he "lost" with his hand years and years ago...away. It's utterly fucking ludicrous and I shook my damned head. Worse, it's played for a laugh...and the less said about milking the teat of that space creaure the better.

-Finn is reduced to side character. He was essentaily the victim of "What can I come up with for Finn to do" and we end up with the nigh-pointless Canto Bight sequence. And don't get me started on pulling the one moment Finn had to be cool. If he'd have sacrficed himself to take out the big gun, what a great end to a heros journey where he began it on the other side of the conlifct. But nope. Pulled out from under us to serve a "love story" that is not remotely developed with Rose.

-Speaking of Canto Bight. Maz's code hacker "friend" was the PERFECT opportunity to bring in Lando. And at a gambling city to boot? But instead we get this weird switcheroo where they want this one guy to be that, can't get at him, end up in jail and SOMEHOW there is DJ who can code hack? And Benicio Del Toro is WASTED. He's not charming, or rogueish like he should be...he's just a waste used to make the overall plan not work with an obvious betrayal.

-The ENTIRE main plot is hinged on the fact that Admiral Holdo (for ZERO reason) keeps her plans from Poe about how to escape (never mind the stupidity of the "we are running out of fuel and they can track us through hyperspace" nonsense) and as a result ALL the other parts of that plotline kick off resulting in many casualties, and multiple failures. Yes, Poe is at fault for a lot of shit in this movie, but Holdo (written as a moron by Rian) is the reason that everythign that befalls the Rebels does. If she had told Poe (the main commander of the forces) the plan...none of the rest would have had to transpire as it did.

-Superman Leia. Ugh. I liked that we got a new force ability (surviving the vacuum of space) but this scene waa weird and overwrought. The only reason it was a nice get out of dying free card was becuase it allowed for a Luke & Leia reuniion at the end of the film.

-He killed off major characters in a stupid way. Admiral Ackbar is killed off in the bridge explosion...that pissed me OFF. The rebels are down to like 12 people by the end who can all fit aboard the falcon. I mean wot?!

-Where is Temmin Wexley? I guess the goodwill betwen JJ and his actor friend didn't extend to Rian's movie. Nevermind that he seemed to be second in command of Black Squadron under Poe.

-The crystal foxes are the biggest Checkov's gun in the new trilogy by FAR. Og, these mineral creatures that live here...yeah they may turn out to be important! Ugh. They looked cool as hell, but their use was hackneyed.

-No force ghosts for Anakin or Obi-Wan. Using Yoda was great! But the fact that Force Ghost Anakin and Obi-Wan were not present show how Rian was tailoring the narrative to serve his goals and not organically. By all intents the two ghosts SHOULD be present because of the insight they can shed on A GUY TURNING TO THE DARK SIDE FROM THE LIGHT AND BEOCMING A DARK LORD...and beating him or turning him back. Anakin's insight alone would hav helped Rey and Luke.

The only interesring narrative thing Rian attmpeted here was the almost turning back of Kylo in Snoke's trhone room (my fave scene in the movie) to the light...and I was like "Oh, this is awesome! Kylo will be turned back and we get to see what the aftermath of that will be, and how the anti-hero can redeem himself over a whole movie and a half!...then I realized Snoke was gone, and without an antagonist...yup, Rian pulls the rug and Kylo goes "Oh right, as you were, let's rule the galaxy as evil folk!". Now I get that Kylo pulls off what Vader never could (defeat your master and rule in his place)...but he's in NO way capable of that ruling fist. None. If anything, his failure on the Crait fields in the face of his old master shows that he's still just an immature, conflicted manchild. How is that a "big threat" going forward, I don't know.

Also, no lightsaber duels. Not one. The throne room and the Luke V Kylo were both non-lightsaber duels. Consider me non-plussed about that.

Now, this all makes it sound as if I hated this movie. I didn't. I liked a lot in it...but make no mistake, it's only becuase I have to disconnect it from "canon" in my head as it's gone completely off the rails in that capacity for me. Rian made everythign too different and changed everything in ways that feels unorganic and un-Star Wars. As a space opera film with Star wars stuff in it, I had a great time with it and there is lots of stuff to love. But George Lucas's restrained "It's a very beautiful film" whe asked what he thought of it...takes on whole volumes of subtletly now to me. He liked how it looked, and played, but didn't like what they did to his story. I concur.

Stuff I liked.

-Throne Room fight. Amazing start to finish. Just a gloriuous and enjoyable section of the film.

-The crait battle sequence was cool throughout.

-Yoda! Probably my second fave scene in the movie was Yoda. Him taunting Luke was great. I especially liked his bit about Rey "Already has all that was in that cave"...and we find out at the end she TOOK the Jedi Order books! Awesome.

-Forshadowed stuff. Luke: What do you expect me to do? Take on the whole First order?....proceeds to kind of do exactly that later in the film.

-Holdo. As much as I hated her as a character and what Rian did with her...Laura Dern was amazing in the role!

-Leia. Any scene with Carrie was better for it. She really did a fantastic job and should be proud of her final turn as the character.

-The space battle stuff, particularly the opening with Poe and Paige's sacrfice aboard the bomber was perfectly done. Probalny my third fave scene in the film. Is it sad I think I'd rather have seen Paige with Finn instead of Rose? Rose felt too "fangirlish" to me as a character.

-The Leia hologram callback by R2 to Luke.

-The boy at the end with the SUPER subtle force pull on the broom and the holding it up lime a saber to the moon. Lovely shot to end on.

So yeah. I liked it as a soldily entertianing movie (if a bit long)...as long as I don't look at plot holes too hard (and there are a lot) and I don't apply it as a Star Wars movie too much. It felt like Rian was so hell bent on clearing the existing table, he middle-fingered anyone who wanted a contiuatuon story and not a reset one. I'm happy to see what JJ does in IX, and I have HOPE that he is able to salvage the trilogy from what I think Rian did to it here...but I'm SO much less impressed with the sequel trilogy now. ROGUE ONE was better than this for me.

Laslty, and this will make BK all kinds of excited I'm sure...I think I need to re-read the old EU. Go back to the continuation of the story that I liked and thought was mostly organic. Where the charaxcters continued in ways that made sense, even years later. And instead of resetting a galactic war on the same principles as before...it was a fledlging Repulbic dealing with growing pains and what was left of the Empire was still around and began to exhibit tendecies to messing with that peace. To that end, there is a comixology sale right now on all Star Wars comics and I bought the adaptation of the Thrawn Trilogy from 2009 and only one issue into it, and after being disappointed by THE LAST JEDI and the direction Rian took his film...Thr Thrawn trilogy feels like home. Sorry I didn't like this as much as everyone else seemed to. Trust me, I'm as sad about that as ever.
Time to re-read the entire old EU and go back to what I'd like the Galaxy Far Far Away to look like after ROTJ.

I haven't read everyone's reactions but I agree on a lot of points with QT.

The entire Luke and Ben plot made no sense. Luke could sense darkness in his pupil so he got so desperate he actually considered killing him? Not only is Luke a Jedi, he is the one who brought back Vader. As far as redeeming from the darkness stands, this is an all time great achievement. I just cannot buy that he was so scared and hopeless that he didn't even give it an honest try.

The entire Canto Bight and hacker sequence was so bad. Just so so bad. What was even the point of those big creatures rampaging through everything? And then it all ends in a betrayal, we get to see Phasma who immediately falls into flame. I just feel like Finn was wasted in this movie.

I get the killing of Snoke. Its very appropriate for the Sith - the apprentice kills the master, and Snoke was over-confident and so had it coming.
But the way it was done - we never get any backstory for him, we are just supposed to buy that this scarred super powerful Sith just popped into existence and led the First Order.

Kylo Ren - he wasn't done badly at all, except that he is absolutely no one to lead anything. Just think about his last scene - was bamboozled by a force projection. Just completely taken in. He couldn't sense anything at all. And this happened in front of his army and officers. He did not cut an impressive figure at all.

I did not like Leias sudden space superpowers and I found the Rebel bomber thing laughable. In Rogue One, they had A Wings to do the heavier fighting. What is a space bomber anyway? Bombs fall by gravity, which is absent in space. What are these ridiculously slow, vulnerable craft? It looked like they were using cargo barges! And if Light speed ramming is a thing, why not have robot piloted unmanned craft laden with explosives which can come in at light speed and take out dreadnoughts and cruisers?

I actually quite like that Rey's parents were random people, but this is one movie in a series. When the previous movie had lain down the basis for her lineage, the director should not have simply ignored that. I found it unprofessional.

Also I have a larger problem with this series taking the republic and immediately reducing it down to a small bunch of resistance fighters. This is a larger objection I have to storytelling in general, that is does not always have to be a scrappy underdog vs an Empire, but it can be two large bodies fighting each other as well.

I really liked the R2 and Luke scenes. Probably my favourite of the movie, especially with the old hologram.

Will the third movie happen after a time skip? It seems logical as the Resistance is basically dead. A time skip will let them build up strength, let Rey and Finn mature, give them room to write Leia out and also those kids could grow. One of the themes of this movie was that the Resistance has many sympathisers, only they can't act at the moment. A time skip would let that happen.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 28 December 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

I'm sure they will release a tech book like they used to do with prequel movies explaining more about the bombs. It didn't bother me considering Poe took out the top side guns, the general downward thrust of the release of the bombs would ensure they would travel unopposed, and the natural gravity a ship that large would produce anyway would pull them to it.

Is the space walk just hated cause it looked kinda strange cg wise? She did nothing new to EU readers. Healing trance, Force aided held breath, and what I still say is probably the easiest Force push ever considering there was no gravity to hinder her.

The bombers had no reason to be so slow.. I mean we have current tech which can deliver bombs faster.

The CG was terrible. It reminded me of the old superman movies.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 28 December 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

I took it as for dramatic effect. Speed

I am saying that the visual part could definitely have been done better.


Also another thing - force ghosts! Or rather, their absence.

Luke was a lone man trying to revive the Jedi. His own training was hardly complete. Why were Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin absent? They would have been sources of knowledge and wisdom, people who could give Luke strength and confidence. They disappear and then Yoda randomly reappears and exhibits weather wizard powers. It just felt wrong and inconsistent especially given how the force ghosts had helped Luke earlier.

[Nevyn]

Briar King, on 28 December 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

Is the space walk just hated cause it looked kinda strange cg wise? She did nothing new to EU readers. Healing trance, Force aided held breath, and what I still say is probably the easiest Force push ever considering there was no gravity to hinder her.

Not everyone is an EU reader. Plus leah has never done anything with the force before. Plus it looked weird.

Not to mention she was not that instrumental from then on. Johnson had his out. A few reshoots and they could have just made that her end. So they instead dumped a big narrative problem on the next movie for the sake of a weird looking scene and so she could receive han's dice from a force projection.

[worry]

I'll pipe in to say I thought that scene was beautiful, graceful, and Carrie Fisher rocked it. My heart skipped a beat in that old familiar way.

More generally, I thought she was much better throughout TLJ than she was in TFA, right up through the end. I don't know what they're gonna do for Ep IX, and agree it's a pickle, but that's a concern for another day.

[Andorion]

worry, on 28 December 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

I'll pipe in to say I thought that scene was beautiful, graceful, and Carrie Fisher rocked it. My heart skipped a beat in that old familiar way.

More generally, I thought she was much better throughout TLJ than she was in TFA, right up through the end. I don't know what they're gonna do for Ep IX, and agree it's a pickle, but that's a concern for another day.

Overall, Carrie Fisher was excellent in this movie. She carried her scenes with a certain gravitas which I felt that the rest of the cast (notably Finn) lacked. In a way she reminded me of Obi Wan Kenobi in Episode 4.

The thing is for only movie watchers like me, her only force usage has been in ESB when she detected that Luke was in mortal danger.

One rather interesting thing I want to discuss though is Lukes view of the Force.

He says that it flows through everything and that the Jedi don't have a monopoly over the light side. He also stresses balance.

But the issue is that, as long as the Sith or a dark side exists, in the interests of balance would it not make sense to have users of the light side like the Jedi? Are not the Jedi the products of balance?

I think this could have been better articulated. Luke could have said that the Jedi order as it had existed pre Revenge of the Sith was ossified, tied down with rigid rules and traditions, too closely linked to state power, that he felt the Jedi needed to be completely different - this would have been a narrative that would have been far more compelling.


Also, one part of the movie I did not understand was that dark hole in the island and how Rey interacted with it. Would appreciate an example of that.

[Cause]

Andorion, on 28 December 2017 - 01:42 AM, said:

The entire Luke and Ben plot made no sense. Luke could sense darkness in his pupil so he got so desperate he actually considered killing him? Not only is Luke a Jedi, he is the one who brought back Vader. As far as redeeming from the darkness stands, this is an all time great achievement. I just cannot buy that he was so scared and hopeless that he didn't even give it an honest try.

Will the third movie happen after a time skip? It seems logical as the Resistance is basically dead. A time skip will let them build up strength, let Rey and Finn mature, give them room to write Leia out and also those kids could grow. One of the themes of this movie was that the Resistance has many sympathisers, only they can't act at the moment. A time skip would let that happen.

-I kept waiting for it to be revealed that the whole thing took place in Bens mind, that Snoke manipulated him into imagining it. Then Luke admitted it. I then waited for the reveal that snoke manipulated Luke. It was a very unsatisfying explanation for why Ben is the way he is. Not to mention he took many students with him. The whole school was compromised.


-Despite none of the outer rim allies showing up I can only imagine the third film will have to rely on them or will have to somehow revolve around Fin, Poe and Rey each having to convince one ally to join up. I hope to god they chose to rescue the council of the citadel and save the rachni queen because that's worth a 1000 war assets each


-Speaking of the fact that the republic was destroyed and the game reset to the beginning I feel we don't see enough acknowledgement that the FO essentially destroyed like what? 8 planets in a day? How many billions die? Maybe Poes reckless behavior would make more sense if they explained he felt hopless now that his family, home planet and friends are all dead? For all the fact that the new republic was destroyed it felt like no one was too worried.

Briar King, on 28 December 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

I’m sure they will release a tech book like they used to do with prequel movies explaining more about the bombs. It didn’t bother me considering Poe took out the top side guns, the general downward thrust of the release of the bombs would ensure they would travel unopposed, and the natural gravity a ship that large would produce anyway would pull them to it.

Is the space walk just hated cause it looked kinda strange cg wise? She did nothing new to EU readers. Healing trance, Force aided held breath, and what I still say is probably the easiest Force push ever considering there was no gravity to hinder her.

Except that F=gM1M2 which means the acceleration due to gravity would be non existent. Honest to god dumb bombers don't make sense in space. Especially given that we know that misiles and torpedoes exist (The FO is able to bypass the resistance light cruisers shield and destroy their entire leadership practically by firing 4 of them at the ships bridge). Missiles that I should add could be guided by some incredibly smart AI. Star Wars has always been governed by the rule of cool though, its why storm troopers look intimidating but fight with the tactical skills of civilians with guns, its why their was a WW1 trench line against the FO walkers near the end of the film. Its why the walker tanks are the size of skyscrapers but really receive no benefit for this size. However for me dumb carpet bombers violate the rule of cool and common sense. For many its not a problem. Besides as already pointed out, they lost 80% of the bomber fleet to succeed. All they needed was one pilot to hyperdrive his x-wing into the ship. The internal consistency of the world was compromised.

I was okay with the space walk. Mostly because humans can actually survive the vacuum of space for longer than we generally think. Your eye balls might freeze as all the water on the surface of your body boils away in vacuum but otherwise you can survive. What I was wondering though was if she pulled the ship to her or if she pushed herself to the ship. I ask because we know the jedi can lift insanely heavy objects but we never see jedi fly. Can they force push themselves? I get the impression the answer is no.

Andorion, on 28 December 2017 - 05:05 AM, said:

Also, one part of the movie I did not understand was that dark hole in the island and how Rey interacted with it. Would appreciate an example of that.

Yip. This was a weird scene. That apparently ended up being pointless. She learned nothing, was not tainted by darkness and the weird endless mirror thing did not make any sense to me. I got no symbolism from it.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 28 December 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Maybe Poes reckless behavior would make more sense if they explained he felt hopless now that his family, home planet and friends are all dead? For all the fact that the new republic was destroyed it felt like no one was too worried.

Not a defense to much (as I agree with you), but Poe's home planet is Yavin 4 aa that's where his mother and father raised him (COMIC: SHATTERED EMPIRE). The Hosnian system that was the current host to the Republic centre, was the only one destroyed.

Which brings up another BIG plot point issue. What's happened to Coruscant? I get that the NuCanon aspect of the Republic Government is that the home system moves to be whatever is the home system of the Chancellor (it was Chandrilla for Mon Mothma, and became Hosnian Prime after she died and the office of the Chancellor was someone else)...but Coruscant was the centre of the Republic for generations (and of the Empire too)...as for good reason. It was defensible, it had a myriad of outer defences that could have SEEN SKB coming, it has a huge Senate building to house government, and has a Jedi Temple all ready for Luke's new students...that it's just inexplicably disappeared from NuCanon history (aside from the one scene in ROGUE ONE) is not only a travesty, but a massive narrative sinkhole where the Nu Canon story group basically has to ignore it ever existed I guess.

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I got STAR WARS: BATTLEFRONT II for X-Mas and man...1 hour of story mode in that is better than the entirety of TLJ for story....including a Luke I can support!