[QuickTidal]

Silencer, on 29 July 2018 - 04:19 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 28 July 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

Coco with marshmallows, on 28 July 2018 - 09:53 AM, said:

Traveller, on 28 July 2018 - 07:47 AM, said:

'Luke to return...'

Force ghost surely

I kind of hope JJ middle fingers RJ and just brings him back alive.

But yes, probably force ghost.

Dude, you might actually have a serious problem if this is even remotely meant to be anything other than a joke.

Like, take a step back, and consider how juvenile "I hope he tries to ruin the middle film in this trilogy deliberately because I didn't like it" sounds.

Rian treated JJs film like garbage. Alls fair now. Sorry. And there is a certain Amount of hyperbole to the notion that if JJ chose to make Luke’s disappearance in TLJ NOT a death, but something else...that it somehow RUINS the middle chapter...

But if we want to talk about dwelling on a disliked movie...let’s talk about how there are millions of people who have been howling for Zack Snyder’s DC movies to be decanonized and for someone else to come in and wipe the whole MoS, BvS, JL set of films off the map so they can start over...it’s far more prevalent than my passionate opinion about a film series I’ve loved since I was a kid.

And shall we pretend that worry’s comment above equating ppl who didn’t like TLJ and Luke’s portrayal to “crybaby’s” isn’t just as bad? I can’t dislike a movie and not be called names? Awesome. And worry, just so you’re aware the people who REALLY hate TLJ more than I do...didnt want Hamill to come back...they wanted him to spurn Disney/LFL and refuse so that IX had a bigger chance of failure (which is what they want now). Hamill being back is not kowtowing to them at all...since they didn’t want him back.

That’s not me. I may have an unapologetic and strong opinion of TLJ (this is no secret), but I’m happy Luke is back and I hope IX is as amazing as TFA was, and I hope JJ brings it home strong.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 July 2018 - 12:39 PM

[Tsundoku]

Humanising main characters (ie bringing them back to earth with a thud from their lofty heroic perches) was always going to be risky though. I appreciated the effort but I do admit after seeing Luke depicted as a surly isolationist who has human needs I was almost expecting a scene like:

Rey, filled with an urgent need to get on with things, and just a bit of anger (maybe after the weirdass dark pit scene) sees Luke go into on of those stone roundhouses and bursts in on him just sitting there on a long stone bench that runs along the back wall. She proceeds to explain how little time there is, he needs to take her seriously, blah blah blah. To which he replies along the lines of:
"You're right. I haven't given this whole situation the consideration it deserved, or you (I'm freeforming here btw). I apologise."
Rey seems slightly mollified and a little shocked at her audacity.
"Now will you please get out of my bathroom?"

I don't want my Star Wars heroes to have feet of clay. Or toilet breaks. I want them to do heroic (I was going to say shit, but given what I just wrote ...) stuff.
The odd brief note to subvert the trope, sure, but that's it.

Anyhoo that's just my poorly-expressed thoughts on that particular bit.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 29 July 2018 - 11:57 AM

[worry]

Nostalgia was a perfectly reasonable approach for Ep VII, as a palate cleanser from the godawful prequels and a re-emphasis on the OT as context to embed the story in going forward. Which is what made JJ -- a talented director with a fine memory but relatively limited imagination -- the right choice. And I do give him a lot of credit for 1. co-creating Kylo Ren and 2. casting Adam Driver as Kylo Ren. But not repeating the OT's formula for all three new eps was vital, and RJ's less predictable take -- bursting with ideas and personality, if not all successful (looking at you, police/space-horse chase) and frankly thematically more interesting than any of the previous movies -- was also the right choice for Ep VIII. His movie is no less embedded in the past of the franchise, but more than most he saw the potential for unique and interesting storytelling with these characters, new and old. It's frankly up to JJ not to screw up this rich and rewarding setup RJ handed him, by reverting back to simple, inert 'chosen one' fantasy cliches.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

It's frankly up to JJ not to screw up this rich and rewarding setup RJ handed him, by reverting back to simple, inert 'chosen one' fantasy cliches.

I'll be surprised if that's what happens. TLJ virtually ignored TFA, undercut every single set up and threw them out the window. We're going to end up with three barely connected films without a coherent trilogy narrative regardless now, I would say.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 30 July 2018 - 06:06 AM

[worry]

I didn't draw that conclusion, personally, but I am real curious to see how this is gonna settle as a trilogy, like one you can marathon! And I'm not in any way proposing an anti-JJ sentiment, I'm just kind of anxious since he's such a nostalgist. If he can split the difference I'll probably be rather satisfied, I just cross my fingers for more-than-satisfied. Cuz why not?

[Maark Abbott]

What we really want though is KOTOR2 the be finished by people who aren't fans datamining.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

I didn't draw that conclusion, personally, but I am real curious to see how this is gonna settle as a trilogy, like one you can marathon! And I'm not in any way proposing an anti-JJ sentiment, I'm just kind of anxious since he's such a nostalgist. If he can split the difference I'll probably be rather satisfied, I just cross my fingers for more-than-satisfied. Cuz why not?

I'd certainly prefer it if you were right!

[QuickTidal]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Nostalgia was a perfectly reasonable approach for Ep VII, as a palate cleanser from the godawful prequels

Hot take.

And you'd be surprised to know that LOTS of people who were kids (now adults) when the prequels came out love them, and consider them far and above better than the OT. The fandom is split far more than you realize and has been riven for a while. RJ just split it again.

I'll spoiler this next bit as I know a lot of people don't want to read my views on this film, so this is just for worry, if he cares to read it.

Spoiler

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

and RJ's less predictable take -- bursting with ideas and personality, if not all successful (looking at you, police/space-horse chase) and frankly thematically more interesting than any of the previous movies -- was also the right choice for Ep VIII.

Let's be clear. And you may not realize this, but if TFA was a rehash of ANH, then TLJ is a rehash mangling up of TESB and ROTJ. It's predictable, and not remotely "bursting" with ideas. RJ is on record as saying that his idea for the story came because he could envision a few of the sequences in his head, and constructed the story around that. It also features an ending that rips off another movie (from another genre) to such a degree that it cannot be considered coincidence, but we'll get to that.

I will preface this by saying that the Crait sequence, was originally at the beginning of the film in the initial script (Jan 2016 rewrite was designated by the powers that be because it was too close to the beginning of TESB; Hoth).

So, in your "less predictable, ideas and personality" take we have:

-Crait/Hoth battle with trenches, walkers, and a white surface planet that RJ even has to use the script to say "This is Salt, not Snow"
-Main cast trio splits to do separate missions, Rey/Luke goes to Dagobah/Ach-To to learn from a former Jedi Master Yoda/Luke, only to encounter a being who is not what they expected.
-Jedi Master Yoda/Luke refuses to train the newcomer Luke/Rey for stupid reasons; Luke is "too old, and rash" Rey is delusional and the Jedi are bad. But relent.
-Dark Side Cave/Dark Side Cave sequence with confrontation with your darkest inner fear, No Parents/Vader Father.
-Jedi Student goes rushing off to confront the bad guy Kylo Ren/Snoke/Vader/Emperor when their training is incomplete.
-Main Mission with the rest of the cast features a chase through space with the far greater threat Imperials/First Order, chasing the lesser one Rebels/Resistance.
-Part of the good faction decides that it's a good idea to help escape the chase by enlisting the aid of an acquaintance in a relaxing setting Canto Bight/Cloud City, and think they are getting the help they need until the acquaintance betrays them; Lando/DJ to the Imperials/FirstOrder who take them prisoner.
-The Throne room scene is not just a narrative copy of the one from ROTJ, but RJ still actual lines of dialogue from the Emperor and placed them in Snoke's mouth as well. I'm not sure how that passed goddamned muster, but here we are. We even get the same notion of the apprentice Vader/Kylo Ren, killing their master Emperor/Snoke in an attempt to save the third party Luke/Rey. It might seem a cool fresh scene on the face of it, until you think about it for two minutes and realize what a copy it is.
-And here we get to the other cribbing. The end with Holo-Luke VS Kylo Ren is almost a shot for shot steal of the ending of ESCAPE FROM L.A. with Kurt Russel (90's sequel to ESCAPE FROM NY). Like I could not believe how much until I watched both sequences.

So any feeling that TLJ is in any way new, fresh, or doing things to push the story forward, falls on deaf ears with me.

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

His movie is no less embedded in the past of the franchise, but more than most he saw the potential for unique and interesting storytelling with these characters, new and old.

Here's the problem with that. RJ treated these new characters horribly as well. Aside from everyone REPEATING the character trajectories they already completed in TFA, Finn is the worst treated by that. He spent TFA going from FO Stormtrooper, to reluctant ally, to Resistance operative, to good friend and solider. He spends TLJ doing the same thing, just with Rose...and Rose spends the movie 'splaining slavery and war to the guy who's been a literal slave his WHOLE LIFE...to a war. Rey's agency is entirely robbed of her for nearly the whole runtime. Leia was placed into a "convenient Coma" so that RJ could pound out his plot with Holdo that says "Don't do your own thing, obey orders blindly and don't question me"...<----this is SO glaringly bad in fact that Disney ordered the comic version to fix this point by having Holdo do something she didn't do in the film, tell Poe she DID have a plan.

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

It's frankly up to JJ not to screw up this rich and rewarding setup RJ handed him, by reverting back to simple, inert 'chosen one' fantasy cliches.

See, here is the stumble. I agree there is no reason to revert to Chosen One fantasy cliches...but what exactly do you think that "Darkness will rise and light to meet it" that is prevalent in both films IS exactly? If not a Chosen One Cliche, just on both sides.

These movies could have found their conflict in nearly ANYTHING. But both JJ and moreso RJ defaulted to the same old same old. Just rebranded. And worse TLJ serves no purpose, and does nothing to further the overall narrative, beyond the fact that they replaced the lead villain with his underling. Everything else is in the same position as it was at the beginning.

I wanted NEW things. I got Empire 2.0 VS Rebels 2.0, with a new cast and the old cast swept away like so much detritus.

And now JJ has to actually SET up a new conflict in the final film (this was RJ's JOB and he ignored it)...because otherwise IX is basically Rey VS Kylo, Redeemed or Killed.....woohoo, very exciting. I guess? The middle film is meant to up the ante...TLJ regressed it instead in favour of some weird bunch of indie-vibes diatribes about bad and good, and Reylo, and umpteen other philosophical garbage points.

[worry]

Do you ever get the sense that we'll be talking about TLJ on our death beds? It'll be like a twisted Jefferson and Adams situation. As I die my final words will be "TLJ still survives."

QuickTidal, on 30 July 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Nostalgia was a perfectly reasonable approach for Ep VII, as a palate cleanser from the godawful prequels

Hot take.

And you'd be surprised to know that LOTS of people who were kids (now adults) when the prequels came out love them, and consider them far and above better than the OT. The fandom is split far more than you realize and has been riven for a while. RJ just split it again.

I'm not surprised by that at all. I'm sure there are people who grew up watching Caillou who would fall on their sword defending it too. But I fail to see how it's a hot take, if I came by it organically. I saw the prequels as they came out. They were (and remain) awful. They're not mediocre, they're not hit and miss (there's good stuff, just not enough to call it hit and miss), they're not salvageable if you take the best parts and make one movie out of them. They're the Mac & Me McDonald's dance scene for ~7 hours, with less charm. But of course people are free to disagree and like what they like. I don't come out of SW movies thinking of the fandom any more than I came out of Lady Bird thinking of the Lady Bird fandom. What's the point of that?

Spoiler

Luv2B_Sassy, on 29 July 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

It's frankly up to JJ not to screw up this rich and rewarding setup RJ handed him, by reverting back to simple, inert 'chosen one' fantasy cliches.

See, here is the stumble. I agree there is no reason to revert to Chosen One fantasy cliches...but what exactly do you think that "Darkness will rise and light to meet it" that is prevalent in both films IS exactly? If not a Chosen One Cliche, just on both sides.

And now JJ has to actually SET up a new conflict in the final film (this was RJ's JOB and he ignored it)...because otherwise IX is basically Rey VS Kylo, Redeemed or Killed.....woohoo, very exciting. I guess? The middle film is meant to up the ante...TLJ regressed it instead in favour of some weird bunch of indie-vibes diatribes about bad and good, and Reylo, and umpteen other philosophical garbage points.

Rey "vs" Kylo is exactly what I want, but I also want most of the violence out of the way in the first half. I want it to be as anti-war a mainstream sci-fi action movie with "Wars" in the title can be. I am hoping the "darkness will rise and light to meet it" stuff means acceptance of both, not rivalry. A galaxy-wide redefining of the Force, both Light and Dark, that obliterates both Sith and Jedi cult philosophies in one stroke. Rey and Kylo make fine avatars for this seeming opposition that is actually a tragic misalignment. If they're both chosen ones, that's fine, as long as it's not a light chosen one slaying a dark chosen one. Heal the Force together. In that light, I think TLJ advanced that story by leaps and bounds.

Anyway, that's my dream Ep IX. If we get a traditional but competent and fairly exciting sci-fi action adventure, I'll be disappointed but I'll accept it on its terms and probably still enjoy it.

[worry]

Well, you'll probably get your wish!

[worry]

Call me crazy, but something tells me we're all going to be 100% satisfied with the final Star Wars movie.

[QuickTidal]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Do you ever get the sense that we'll be talking about TLJ on our death beds? It'll be like a twisted Jefferson and Adams situation. As I die my final words will be "TLJ still survives."

Almost certainly. It's really taxing most days, but it's also fun to discuss and debate. LOL

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Rey "vs" Kylo is exactly what I want, but I also want most of the violence out of the way in the first half. I want it to be as anti-war a mainstream sci-fi action movie with "Wars" in the title can be.

Sure, this would be a fine movie and one even I'd be interested to see. It's not, however, in any way Star Wars. Star Wars is 1930's-style space adventure serials. Think Buck Rogers. Expanding on that and finding new avenues within that SHOULD have been the Sequel Trilogies task...not dissecting and dismantling it, and rebuilding it into something entirely "other". Do you feel that the reason that the series has endured thus far is because of its ability to be what you are describing, or because whatever else it gets up to, it always has remained a crow-pleasing 1930's style space adventure serial. The Clone Wars tv show, Star Wars Rebels, the old EU, KOTOR...all of them explored different facets of the SW galaxy...but never do they stray too far from what made the entire franchise endure.

Look at the MCU. Whatever else it does as far as how the stories are structured to be fresh and interesting, thrillers, comedies, space adventures, political treatises....they are still always Superhero movies as well. They never lose that fact.

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

I am hoping the "darkness will rise and light to meet it" stuff means acceptance of both, not rivalry.

Boring? Boring. And also not Star Wars. Lucas was clear, the force is a calm pond. The Dark side was a corruption of that pond, ripples and waves in its surface...the "balance" of the force is therefore the correction from the good side to calm the waters once again. If you posit a SW franchise with no rivalry between the light and dark, what exactly are you left with? What is the point of having space wizards...if there is no one to fight?

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

A galaxy-wide redefining of the Force, both Light and Dark, that obliterates both Sith and Jedi cult philosophies in one stroke.

The two above bolded terms and concepts were purchased by the Disney Corporation through their buying of Lucasfilm as a whole. They are high on the list (if not top of the list) of terms that are associated with SW as a franchise. Doing away with them in ANY way is a fast route to destruction of the brand through dissolution of the key monikers. This would be like someone buying Harry Potter from Rowling and doing away with the term Muggle, or to no longer distinguish between dark and light magic. No way in holy hell do they EVER get rid of the terms and concepts of Jedi and Sith. They paid entirely too much money for the name recognition. The shareholders would have an absolute fit. From what I heard Iger had to literally calm them down when the title for RJ's movie was "The LAST Jedi"...and reassure them.

The series is and always will be light VS dark. If you want something more nuanced, and new age...this ain't the series for you.

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Heal the Force together. In that light, I think TLJ advanced that story by leaps and bounds.

Except it didn't. RJ returned everything back to the status quo at the end. Empire 2.0 VS Rebels 2.0, one with a plucky Jedi hero, and one with a dastardly dark sider villain. If you think that IX will end with Rey and Kylo working together...I have to ask...who is the villain they defeat? No one. RJ killed off the only one.

I could see JJ bringing Thrawn back with the Chiss Ascendancy, but as it stands...Kylo is your only antagonist. As such if he's redeemed...what is that in service to? Defeating what exactly? Nada.

Luv2B_Sassy, on 30 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

If we get a traditional but competent and fairly exciting sci-fi action adventure, I'll be disappointed but I'll accept it on its terms and probably still enjoy it.

It's JJ, this is what you'll get.

TLJ will forever be an anomaly in SW. Never again will they risk the division that RJ created (no matter how many people or critics seem to think it's visionary), nor the apathy of casual movie-goers. The shareholders won't allow it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 31 July 2018 - 12:55 PM

[worry]

What if I wrote them a strongly worded email?

[QuickTidal]

Anything is worth a shot.

[QuickTidal]

This sustains me. Been waiting for this for months really. Popcorn ready.

[the broken]

Would you like to summarise? I sat through the Plinkett review for Phantom Menace and thought there was basically no valid criticism in it.

[Gintokian]

Dominic Monaghan and Matt Smith have been cast to join Episode 9, both actors I like so that's a good sign I guess.

[QuickTidal]

the broken, on 31 August 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

Would you like to summarise? I sat through the Plinkett review for Phantom Menace and thought there was basically no valid criticism in it.

The most telling aspect of it, aside from complaints you've heard before 100 times I'm sure...is that he quite accurately points out that TLJ is structured like a "comedy of errors" and not an action adventure film with intelligence. He uses National Lampoons VACATION as the template to lay this comment against. Everything that happens in a comedy of errors is the result of something else that happens in a comedy of errors because the main character or characters is/are a buffoon(s).

So in the case of VACATION, Clark is a buffoon, and every bad decision he makes leads to another bad situation which requires a bad decision to try to fix it which only makes things worse, culminating in Clark holding the Wally World employee (Was that John Candy?) up at gunpoint as his family enjoys the park...which all stems from a metric a tonne of bad decisions and circumstances that forced them to be too late to visit Wally World while it was still open...all because Clark is a buffoon.

Thus the argument is that TLJ script functions in exactly this way. The A plot (the space chase) AND C plot (Canto Bight/Supremacy) function as a comedy of errors from the get-go to the end result. Basically that TLJ wants to be a comedy film, not a serious one simply by dint of it BEING structured as a comedy of errors. Which is amusing because isn't RJ's movie The BROTHERS BLOOM also an actual comedy of errors? Like it would not be much of a stretch for RJ to have structured TLJ the same way not realizing it causes his SW film to have a major identity crisis?

Anyways. That's the large gist of the review. He presents it as a thesis (everyone in TLJ acts like an idiot to make the plot happen...I've noted this before that TLJ uses the 'Idiot Ball' trope, as well as the 'Convenient Coma' trope to keep the "smart" person out of the loop), and then proves it by step by step showing how the movie showcases it.

It's interesting for that facet. The other complaints he makes you might take or leave, but I found the comedy of errors thing a compelling factor I'd not even thought of before, and now I can't unsee it.

[Gintokian]

PARADISE is here bitches, on 31 August 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

I'd be happy if Smith is a Sith.

That would be bizarre but I think I would like that too. He usually plays good characters so it would be fun to see him as a bad guy.

[QuickTidal]

PARADISE is here bitches, on 31 August 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

That’s exactly why I said that. It’d be amazing to see a red blade igniting.

Yeah that would be cool. Although his short stint in T5 was as a baddie, and it was...fine?

Since the buzz is that (even though he denies it) that Richard E Grant is possibly playing Thrawn, I could see Smith being cast as a good guy.

I'm more interested to see who Monaghan is playing.