[Abyss]

There's also the 'mahybe' thing... the Jaghut is setting Korya up to be a vessel, but for what?
We know that eventually Jaghut develop soul-shifting if they haven't already.

[kcf]

Abyss, on 11 September 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

There's also the 'mahybe' thing... the Jaghut is setting Korya up to be a vessel, but for what?

the blood of the elient?

[Drusas Achamian]

THE SOULS CAPTURED BY QUICK BEN IN RARAKU:

'Kebharla...more a scholar than a mage....Eleven mages on foot, without supplies...Late in the afternoon they came upon another body...a third corpse was found...more bodies were discovered...Renisha, a sorceror of High Meanas; Keluger, a Septime Priest of D'riss, the Worm of Autumn; Narkal, the warrior-mage, sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god's Mortal Sword; Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel...Set'alahd Crool, a Jhag half-blood who'd once driven Dassem Ultor back...Etra, a mistress of the Rashan warren; Birith'era, mage of the Serc warren...Gellid, witch of the Tennes warren' ...

In short:

1. Kebharla - Scholar/Mage
2. Unamed
3. Unamed
4. Renisha - Sorcerer of High Meanas
5. Keluger - Septime Priest of D'riss
6. Narkal - Warrior-Mage of Fener
7. Ullan - Soletaken Priestess of Soliel
8. Set'alahd Crool - Jhag half-blood
9. Etra - Mistress of the Rashan warren
10. Birith'era - Mage of the Serc warren
11. Gellid - Witch of the Tennes warren

How could Quick Ben use Kurald Galain in MBotF? I think the two unamed mages above are not important enough to be named: highly unlikely that they were Tiste Andii.
If we consider that only Tiste Andii can use Kurald Galain, the original - 12th soul - of Quick Ben must be a Tiste Andii, who - in a later lifetime perhaps - became a priest
of Shadow.

[Abyss]

Drusas Achamian, on 11 September 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

...How could Quick Ben use Kurald Galain in MBotF? I think the two unamed mages above are not important enough to be named: highly unlikely that they were Tiste Andii.

Highly unlikely based on what? We've met many part-Andii. SE hardly tells us everything that's going on all the time with everyone.

Quote

If we consider that only Tiste Andii can use Kurald Galain,

Your consideration is missing the fact that Meanas and Rashan are there. It's only a short jump to KG AND we've seen humans with only the barest or no non-human blood use Elder Warrens elsewhere (RCG and OST come to mind).

Quote

the original - 12th soul - of Quick Ben must be a Tiste Andii, who - in a later lifetime perhaps - became a priest of Shadow.

Cynnigig in HoC makes the point that just because a race is aspected to a warren doesn't mean they are limitted to it.

[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 11 September 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Drusas Achamian, on 11 September 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

...How could Quick Ben use Kurald Galain in MBotF? I think the two unamed mages above are not important enough to be named: highly unlikely that they were Tiste Andii.

Highly unlikely based on what? We've met many part-Andii. SE hardly tells us everything that's going on all the time with everyone.

Quote

If we consider that only Tiste Andii can use Kurald Galain,

Your consideration is missing the fact that Meanas and Rashan are there. It's only a short jump to KG AND we've seen humans with only the barest or no non-human blood use Elder Warrens elsewhere (RCG and OST come to mind).

Quote

the original - 12th soul - of Quick Ben must be a Tiste Andii, who - in a later lifetime perhaps - became a priest of Shadow.

Cynnigig in HoC makes the point that just because a race is aspected to a warren doesn't mean they are limitted to it.

These points and the ones in preceding posts are all fair arguments.

But I don't get why people seem to just sort of steamroll over the fact that in TCG, QB visits the Spar of Andii and has a conversation with an entity that is almost certainly Mother Dark.

I guess my point isn't necessarily that I'm firmly in the Korya=Quick camp. I'll admit that from the 3/4 of FoD that I've read, if I had a gun to my head and I had to link one of the characters to QB based on the evidence from the text in front of me, I'd probably choose her. That has only a little to do with "Delath" and more to do with the fact that (where I am in the book, at least) she's the only Tiste to have visited the Spar of Andii (a site that, in MBotF, was linked pretty deliberately to Quick in its two appearances), Haut tells her that she will "live forever," the Mahybe reference, the dolls, and very little else.

And notice I used the word "linked." I don't think it's anything nearly as simple as "genetic ancestry," nor do I in any way think it's as simple as Korya=Quick. I just see some potential connections.

Also, another quick point: it's the name "Delat" that prompts Ruthan Gudd to recognize QB and guffaw in TCG, is it not? Thus leading me to believe that there is some significance to the name Delat, a significance that--maybe won't, but I highly suspect could be--revealed over the course of the Kharkanas trilogy. I do think Delat-->Delath is fairly fucking obvious for SE's MO, but given what little we have to go on, I don't think it's unfair for hackles to be up when those five letters are anywhere in a row.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 11 September 2012 - 10:18 PM

[Crow Clan Baby]

Drusas Achamian, on 11 September 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

...the original - 12th soul - of Quick Ben must be a Tiste Andii, who - in a later lifetime perhaps - became a priest
of Shadow.

That's an interesting theory... I was originally inclined to dismiss it, but has it ever been categorically stated in the series that QB is actually human? We know he's tall, he's slender, he has black skin, and it would be just like SE to throw us that kind of curveball.

[spim]

As posted in the other thread

Quote

Can someone bring up the Brys Beddict monologues in DoD or TCG? There's a part where he's remembering his time in the Guardian of Death realm or whatever and he talks about cold airless moon guy etc etc that strnogly reeks of Old Man.

[Abyss]

Ceda Cicero, on 11 September 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

...
And notice I used the word "linked." I don't think it's anything nearly as simple as "genetic ancestry," nor do I in any way think it's as simple as Korya=Quick. I just see some potential connections....

Agreed.

Crow Clan Baby, on 11 September 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

That's an interesting theory... I was originally inclined to dismiss it, but has it ever been categorically stated in the series that QB is actually human? We know he's tall, he's slender, he has black skin, and it would be just like SE to throw us that kind of curveball.

Iirc even back in GotM when the squad first shows up on the hill Tattersail describes him as a 7C native.

[Studlock]

He was always been described as a black human male from 7C, not with the actual black skin of the Tiste.

[Abyss]

And i'm grasping here, but i believe the descriptions of Pearl and Topper, both part Andii, referred to the shape of their eyes as the only real hint of non-human heritage. We've never seen that descriptin applied to QB.

I think there may be a link - the TCG prologue scene at the Spar REALLY supports this - but it's not as direct as a bloodline.

[Kanese S's]

Korya is Burn, and Burn is QB's ancestor.




Okay, fine, I'm just shouting out random stupid things.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Is it possible Arathan is the Builder from Toll the Hounds that Nimander frees? He was with Gothos. Perhaps Gothos kept him around all this time to build Azath houses...Silchas lived in a barrow for forever, so lengthy imprisonments aren't entirely out of the question. Plus, Arathan seemed to want to be away from pretty much all that civilization stuff anyway. I know Builder had a mouth full of fangs, but who knows how Arathan, an Azathanai, would choose to present himself?

Also, Olar Ethil freaked me the f out. How you gonna be takin' a brutha's head off witchyo stomach? Still her scenes were incredibly visceral. I want more.

The Jaghut are awesome. Haut, Verandas, Hood, Gothos...these guys...

And Burn is an Imass Bonecaster...who is already sleeping...but doesn't "Sleep" until the Crippled God poisons her...

Wanna see the Birth of Shadow real bad. Wanna see drinking of Tiam's blood real bad. Wanna see Sundering of Shadow real bad...wanna see some Forukal real bad...Wanna see Kallor real bad...

"K'rul's Gift" = Best fantasy explanation for existence of magic ever?

OK, here's the love:

This is the first SE Malazan book I've got to read along with you guys when it first came out. I came late to the party, but I've got a lampshade on my head and I'm about to break out a game of Cards Against Humanity. In hindsight, it may have been a good idea, cuz when I've been confused, I've been able to come on here and either A. find an answer to my question or B. realize you all are just as confused and speculative as I am. That said, I wanted you all to know I love you and you can come sit on a branch of this burning tree with me any time. There are plenty of branches.

This post has been edited by Stalking Stonny: 14 September 2012 - 01:45 PM

[Destiny]

Stalking Stonny, on 14 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Is it possible Arathan is the Builder from Toll the Hounds that Nimander frees? He was with Gothos. Perhaps Gothos kept him around all this time to build Azath houses...Silchas lived in a barrow for forever, so lengthy imprisonments aren't entirely out of the question. Plus, Arathan seemed to want to be away from pretty much all that civilization stuff anyway. I know Builder had a mouth full of fangs, but who knows how Arathan, an Azathanai, would choose to present himself?

WOOOOOOOW I was literally just about to post this

[Abyss]

Destiny, on 14 September 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Stalking Stonny, on 14 September 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Is it possible Arathan is the Builder from Toll the Hounds that Nimander frees? He was with Gothos. Perhaps Gothos kept him around all this time to build Azath houses...Silchas lived in a barrow for forever, so lengthy imprisonments aren't entirely out of the question. Plus, Arathan seemed to want to be away from pretty much all that civilization stuff anyway. I know Builder had a mouth full of fangs, but who knows how Arathan, an Azathanai, would choose to present himself?

WOOOOOOOW I was literally just about to post this

In that TtH scene Gothos implies that he has multiple builders building mutliple Houses - the line is something like "I was saving that one.". It's not entirely clear but that would contradict the (nontheless interesting) theory.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I'm gonna read that scene tonight when I get home from work, but thanks for giving the memory more depth for me. I wonder still if that is a contradiction. If he was "saving" him, then that word could mean several things. Saving, like hoarding, or saving like rescuing. Even the double meaning aside, He could have been saving him because he was special to him. Or was a prototype. Maybe Gothos was responsible for the building of the Azath houses, but they aren't needed anymore since magic is evolving due to Icarium's being the K'rul Nouveaux and the rise of the new warrens. This be some WILD speculation, too. But the TCG left us facing a new magic system, the end of the Malazan Empire and the future promise of Karsa destroying civilization. Then we def got some Vitr shit that needs to be dealt with by ICE, where I'm sure we'll find out more about the toothy mason.

As it stands, though much respect for your input Abyss. And way to share brainwaves in the collective unconscious, Destiny.

[Destiny]

Why does it contradict it? It seems entirely possible that Arathan (who is an Azathanai) could be one of those builders building Azaths. He might not be this specific builder, but if Gothos has multiple, then why not one of the others?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I think if they were any of them it would be that specific one. And FoD really hammers home the point that Azathanai masons were known to the Tiste. It could be and it couldnt be. There really isn't enough proof to say that it is. I just wanted to share my first thought, once I read Arathan decided to live with Gothos. I like these books.

[Abyss]

I saw Gothos' TtH comment as running towards multiple builders who were all the same race, but i see the point that the one specific builder could be Arathan and others different, especially given the ref early in FoD to Az'i masons plural.

Tho FoD also tells us that the Az'i don't know where the Houses come from, but Gothos could form that link later on.

My head hurtz.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yes. This is all very difficult conjecture. Thanks for taking part in it. I value your thoughts.

[Seli]

Abyss, on 11 September 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Drusas Achamian, on 11 September 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

...How could Quick Ben use Kurald Galain in MBotF? I think the two unamed mages above are not important enough to be named: highly unlikely that they were Tiste Andii.

Highly unlikely based on what? We've met many part-Andii. SE hardly tells us everything that's going on all the time with everyone.

...

Also keep in mind our information on this sequence comes from the story as told by Whiskeyjack to Rake. They might have a bond and Whiskeyjack is probably telling a version of the truth, but it is not unlikely he lies by omission if he thinks it is needed to protect Quick Ben.