[Drusas Achamian]

In 'Forge of Darkness', we meet a lot of new, interesting characters. Some of them we may already know by other names: hidden identities.

Arathan

Son of Draconus and at least half Azathanai. For his age highly intelligent. Is going to study with Gothos, the Jaghut Lord of Hate. Could this be the set-up for the creation of one the greatest mages in history. In short: could Arathan be the person that we later know as Tayschrenn?

Clues:

On page 112 (trade paperback) of MoI, Silverfox notices something about Artanthos (Taschrenn): 'Artanthos...' Silverfox quietly murmured. 'He's not used that name in a long time.' I don't have to mention how similar the name 'Arathan' is in comparison with 'Artanthos'. The name Artanthos was probably a memory from the part of Nightchill in Silverfox. If we take this theory for granted - that Arathan = Tayschrenn/Artanthos - who could be the mother of Arathan? Given the fondness of Draconus for female Azathanai (like Olar Ethil) and the fact that Tayschrenn receives a similar name in Stonewielder, could T'riss be the mother of Arathan?

Korya Delath

Relative of the noble Tiste house of Drukorlat and hostage and student of the Jaghus Haut. Like Arathan, also young and very intelligent. Erikson mentioned that we will meet Quick Ben in 'Forge of Darkness' but would not recognise him. Could Korya Delath be Ben Adaephon Delat?

Clues.

1. The similarity between 'Delath' en 'Delat'. Adaephon also sounds Tiste.

2. On page 55 of FoD, it is mentioned that Korya plays with dolls. In GoM, Quick Ben remembers that he played with dolls in his youth. Later, he 'plays' with Hairlock as his doll.

3. 'No, do not quest towards me, Son of Darkness. I value my privacy' says Quick Ben to Anomander Rake on page 235 (trade paperback) of MoI. Could Quick Ben value more than just the fact that he contains many souls? In TCG, when Quick Ben is at the Spar of the Andii, it is strongly suggested that he is Tiste. It is likely that he would keep this a secret from Rake.

4. And the biggest, most OBVIOUS clue of them all: Korya Delath is a mahybe, a person ready to be filled with other souls, like what happened with Quick Ben. On page 60 of FoD, during the dialogue between the Jheleck Rusk and Haut:

'You can do nothing more for her [Korya Delath]', said Rusk, 'We can feel the essence of her soul. It is dark, empty. It has no power. She is not a child of Mother Dark, not in her soul, for the darkness that dwells there is not Kurald Galain. It is simply absence.'
'Yes, perfectly so.'
'Then what awaits it [Korya Delath]?' Rusk demanded.
'In the language of the Dog-Runners, Rusk, I have fashioned a mahybe. A vessel. Protected, sealed, and, as you say, empty. What remains to be done? Why, it's filling, of course.'

This makes it all so obvious. Korya Delath is becoming Adeaphon Delat, empty, to be filled with the souls Whiskeyjack mentions to Anomander Rake, from page 355 on of MoI:
'Kebharla...more a scholar than a mage....Eleven mages on foot, without supplies...Late in the afternoon they came upon another body...a third corpse was found...more bodies were discovered...Renisha, a sorceror of High Meanas; Keluger, a Septime Priest of D'riss, the Worm of Autumn; Narkal, the warrior-mage, sworn to Fener and aspirant to the god's Mortal Sword; Ullan, the Soletaken priestess of Soliel...Set'alahd Crool, a Jhag half-blood who'd once driven Dassem Ultor back...Etra, a mistress of the Rashan warren; Birith'era, mage of the Serc warren...Gellid, witch of the Tennes warren' ...

Anomander Rake sighed. 'Soul -shifting'
'Aye.'
'I have heard of shifting one soul - sending it into a vessel prepared for it. But to shift eleven souls - eleven mages - into the already-occupied body of a twelfth...'
....'I see now why Quick Ben requested I probe him no further.'

Grizzin Farl

Azathanai, known as the 'Protector'. Later an Elder God. As many suggested, could he be Ruthan Gudd?

Clues:

On page 143 of FoD, Grizzin Farl introduces himself: 'I am Grizzin Farl....known among the Jheleck as the warrior who misses every fight, sleeps through every battle, and but smiles at every challenge.' In TBH and DoD, Ruthan Gudd arrives late at battles (or not at all), is known to be a sleepyhead and smiles a lot. Gudd is also known for his popularity among women, something Grizzin Farl can relate to.

Given the fact that Gudd fights with a Stormrider sword and armor, the fact that he has known Quick Ben and the fact that he is addressed by the Imass as 'Eldar', in combination with the unknown fate of Grizzin Farl, it would not be unlikely that the mysterious Malazan officer is the Azathanai/Elder God.

Old Man

Young Azathanai. Has not already received a name. Could we have met him in Mbotf?

[Aptorian]

I would dislike it if Tayschren turned out to be an Azathanai in hiding. (I don't think there is such a thing as a half Azathanai, you either are or you are not, it's just potential). It wouldn't make any sense power level-wise. If Arathan really was the son of Draconus and a god level mage to boot I don't think he would have had trouble facing Anomander Rake in a magic duel. Let alone just ripping Moon's Spawn right out of the sky. Then again, it would explain why Tayschren survived his swim in the Vir.

I like your theory on Quick Ben and Korya. Especially the detail about the dolls. I too was wondering if maybe she was a relative of the Delat bloodline. How ever I think that Quick Ben himself, Ben Adeaphon Delat, is or was a mortal mage from 7Cs. The Andii soul that may or may not be inside him on the other hand I could believe was Korya. Might even be she was the one who arranged for the soul shifting. I'd just find it... unlikely that, if Korya made it to the modern age of the Malazans, that she would have a need to flee into a desert or have any trouble either avoiding or ending a fight, what ever is needed.

Grizzin Farl. I hope is dead and gone. It would seem fitting to me that he died during the sundering of Emurhlan or something like that. Maybe he takes a stand, opposing his own nature and pays for it. It would be idiotic if he was really Ruthan Gudd. I've mentioned this before but, what ever Ruthan Gudd is or was before he fell into an Azath, it would be ridiculous if he was a god level power player. If he really had the power of an Azathanai he could have ended or avoided the confrontation between the 14th and the Short-tails in so many different ways.

Old Man is a mystery to me. I am still trying to wrap my head around what his aspect is. In its description it sounded like Outer Space. Cold, empty, deadly.

[amphibian]

I'm holding out hope that Arathan is Icarium and that the sundering of the Azath occurred because he was trying to kill Gothos or something other than what the legends say.

[Kurald Bolognese]

I found that Grizzin Farl reminded me of Kruppe, starting with his manner of speech (not as flowery or as flowing but along the same lines) and his marked interest in food and drink... You can make links to the "Protector" aspect too, as a lot of what Kruppe does is work in the background to protect eg Darujhistan in GotM, the Mhybe in MoI. (Although he seems to be somewhat more effective a protector than Grizzin Farl.) I think this would also be an interesting explanation of Kruppe's somewhat mysterious Burn-hammer avoiding powers. On the other hand it's really weird to think of Kruppe as once being married to Kilmandaros, so whatever...

Quick Ben remains an interesting conundrum. When he's talking to "Mother" at the Spar of Andii he has a weird switch between using "I" and "we," specifically referring to himself and one other - "the two of us did the best I could." So maybe he is even both Arathan and Korya Delath at the same time :-)

Arathan as Icarium would never occur to me.So he ends up turning into a half-Jaghut half-Thel Akai for some reason and telling people he is Gothos' son (in the new figurative sense in which nobody who said they were related to someone else in the main series actually is)? Right... I do feel Icarium should turn up in the trilogy somewhere, but we'll see (well, we might see if we're lucky!).

[Aptorian]

Oh man I hadn't even considered whether Icarium was around in this age. Would fit with the mystery of the mother. Come to think of it. We know that he has Jaghut blood in him and we always assumed that Gothos was the provider of the blood but what if his mother was actually the Jaghut? And the father/son relationship is just one of master and pupil. If Erikson has been fooling us for 9 books he is a trickster god.

[champ]

amphibian, on 21 August 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I'm holding out hope that Arathan is Icarium

I have to say that this is my favourite wild theory at the moment as that would be spectacular if true!

[Messremb]

I had close to the same thoughts regarding Arathan and Korya, I need a full series reread now though to check up on some other things. So might be a while. Well done with the quote-fu Drusas

[Gnaw]

Drusas Achamian, on 21 August 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

In TCG, when Quick Ben is at the Spar of the Andii, it is strongly suggested that he is Tiste.

That soliloquy is one of the best in the series IMO. Not having FoD yet I can't comment on the connection but here's his whole speech. Up until this very moment I thought Quick was addressing Mother Dark. But now I'm not 100% certain of that. Is there any other candidate? The 2 things that raise the doubt are
(1) 'there under your wing' which I took figuratively but could he be speaking literally '..your wing' I.e. a dragon (Tiam?)
and
(2) the you offered scant regard for humans'. Does Mother Dark know any humans? From what spoilers I've seen in FoD forum here there aren't any humans yet right?

When he spoke his tone was apologetic. 'Ah, Mother, it's old blood, I don't deny it. Old and thin.' He hesitated, and then said, 'Tell Father I make no apologies for my choice – why should I? No matter. The two of us did the best I could.' He grunted in humour. 'And you might say the same thing.'
He turned back.
Darkness was knotting into something solid before him. He watched it for a time, saying nothing, although her presence was palpable, vast in the gloom behind him. 'If he'd wanted blind obedience, he should have kept me chained. And you, Mother, you should have kept me a child for ever, there under your wing.' He sighed, somewhat shakily. 'We're still here, but then, we did what you both wanted. We almost got them all. The one thing none of us expected was how it would change us.' He glanced back again, momentarily. 'And it has.'Within the circle before him, the dark form opened crimson eyes. Hoofs cracked like iron axe-blades on the stone.He grasped the apparition's midnight mane and swung on to the beast's back. ''Ware your child, Mother.' He drew the horse round, walked it along the ledge a few strides and then back to the mouth of the tunnel. 'I've been among them for so long now, what you gave me is the barest whisper in the back of my soul. You offered scant regard for humans, and now it's all coming down. But I give you this.' He swung the horse round. 'Now it's our turn. Your son opened the way. And as for his son, well, if he wants the Sceptre, he'll have to come and take it.'
Ben Adaephon Delat tightened his grip on the horse's mane. 'You do your part, Mother. Let Father do his, if he's of a mind to. But it comes down to us. So stand back. Shield your eyes, because I swear to you, we will blaze! When our backs are against the wall, Mother, you have no idea what we can do.'


(3) at TCG time, that speech was mysterious, but reading it now, with FoD in existence, it is a "would SE be so obvious to tell us QB is related to MD" thing.

Reason for edit: paragraph breaks in the quote and add point 3.

This post has been edited by Gnaw: 22 August 2012 - 03:18 AM

[spim]

Quoting my post made from an earlier thread here:

Quote

Just finished the book. All I gotta say is, holy shit I can't wait for Fall of Light! Here's my interpretation for several of the events:

*Mother Dark being a regular Tiste who 'ascended' by being given the gift of Night by Draconus + her dive into Chaos. I highly suspect that Arathan is MD and Draconus's son as Draconus states at some point that the woman he loved bore Arathan. Kinda makes sense in a tragic sort of way. This theory could be taken further with Anomander's daughter later known as Aranatha (which I think is MD's real name). Arathan and Aranatha both sound like Azathanai names so, that could be the case. /shrug

*Errastas being the first Azathanai to spill blood in such a manner + Draconus bringing down the Gate of Darkness and consequently all other Gates following = rise of Elder Gods. I'm guessing the other Azathanai have no choice but to follow the path of blood worship if they want to stay in power/level as Errastas, thus following the same thing that we've seen in MBOTF (Ascendants/gods drawn towards lodestones to power etc)

*That power all comes down to the Gates (unsure)

*That everyone's vulnerable. The running theme seems to be about children or the 'younger' generation stomping over the older one.

*SE breaking away from the norms of fantasy writing as seen with the birth of Liosan and the MD herself. Before FoD, I honestly thought MD and FL were both elemental beings born from Chaos etc.

*Kadaspala's story was awesome.

*Dog-runners are probably imass - human etc and that humans have already begun to descend from the imass. The Old Man Azathanai mentioning that the 'High King' has built a ship is probably a reference to Kallor. Same goes for Errastas/Sechul Lath fleeing across the ocean to the high kingdom could be a reference to the Kallorian empire. I'm guessing that in all the upcoming shit to come, we're gonna see Wu being born through Burn etc and all the elder races migrate to this new world with the only real original race from Wu being the K'Chain Che'malle.

*Gothos and Hood are opposites of each other but both have more power than Jaghut Tyrants. Possibly the two most powerful Jaghuts in existence.

Now that I've done a re-read of FoD, I think:

1. Arathan and Korya making love in the Tower of Hate-> Ben Delat who has the same mahybe power as his mother.

2. Grizzin Farl be dead. It might be possible that he's Edgewalker now.

3. I get this feeling there's some sort of relation between Old Man and Draconus. Sorta sounds like a father and son thing since both of them seem to have the space/night Aspect. There's a line of dialogue about a son so idk.

4. Anomander Rake is definitely top 3 most powerful characters in the malazan universe. Apart from being an extraordinary Tiste with his own will power, he also has the power of Mother Dark (chaos + Draconus's Azathanai Night power thingy), Soletaken powers (from Tiam later) and one of the smartest brains. There's one more power I can't remember, it's probably his power levels through K'rul's gift (ascendancy/emasculated god or whatever)..

This post has been edited by spim: 22 August 2012 - 03:26 PM

[spim]

Oh yeah, also we're being subtly told about the power of artists or something in the universe. Kadaspala seems to have lots of potential and creates a child-god in Dragnipur etc. And Onrack's painting makes Kilava immortal etc.

[amphibian]

I don't understand how you can say this

spim, on 22 August 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

*Gothos and Hood are opposites of each other but both have more power than Jaghut Tyrants. Possibly the two most powerful Jaghuts in existence.

and this

Quote

*That everyone's vulnerable. The running theme seems to be about children or the 'younger' generation stomping over the older one.

without one being slightly contradicting to the other. Raest remains my pick for the most power directed towards combat in the books. He fought off Anomander, several Soletaken Andii and Silanah without his Finnest. It's possible that Gothos' Ritual that encased Lether was more powerful, but that's a slow working rather than a combat situation.

Someone will almost certainly come along that makes Raest look like a child. The young Malazan characters will eventually outdo the old.

Quote

2. Grizzin Farl be dead. It might be possible that he's Edgewalker now.

I'm not saying this isn't possible, but it seems an odd role for the Protector of "Nothing" to become Edgewalker. Edgewalker protects Shadow, or what is left of Kurald Emurhlan. Grizzin Farl protected things like silence or grief. They seem to protect different things and for an Azathanai/Elder God to be bound as Edgewalker is bound seems very odd. Something would have to change considerably and it hasn't yet. Perhaps it will in later books.

Quote

4. Anomander Rake is definitely top 3 most powerful characters in the malazan universe. Apart from being an extraordinary Tiste with his own will power, he also has the power of Mother Dark (chaos + Draconus's Azathanai Night power thingy), Soletaken powers (from Tiam later) and one of the smartest brains. There's one more power I can't remember, it's probably his power levels through K'rul's gift (ascendancy/emasculated god or whatever)..

I thought FoD actually brought Anomander down a little bit from unimpeachable ascendant with a genius plan spanning millennia to a very determined, socio-politically successful, gifted warrior who tries and fails to navigate the entire Tiste upper crust towards the better path. These books seem like they'll be a learning experience for Anomander - the genius plan comes together as atonement for the mistakes he made during this Tiste civil war and for the Draconus/Dragnipur debacle.

[Aptorian]

Also, Edgewalker was once an usurper, a would be god king with ambitions of power. This does not sound like the Grizzin Farl we meet in the book.

[blackzoid]

amphibian, on 22 August 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

without one being slightly contradicting to the other. Raest remains my pick for the most power directed towards combat in the books. He fought off Anomander, several Soletaken Andii and Silanah without his Finnest. It's possible that Gothos' Ritual that encased Lether was more powerful, but that's a slow working rather than a combat situation.

Slight correction.
Raest is very impressive but he actually never fought Rake during GoTM. Rake was not amoung the Andii Soletaken dragons that fought Raest in GoTM.
Raest is still up there as regards power displays in the books though. Maybe Draconus's entrance in DoD possibly would be up there as regards magical feats.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 22 August 2012 - 07:01 PM

[spim]

amphibian, on 22 August 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I don't understand how you can say this

spim, on 22 August 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

*Gothos and Hood are opposites of each other but both have more power than Jaghut Tyrants. Possibly the two most powerful Jaghuts in existence.

and this

Quote

*That everyone's vulnerable. The running theme seems to be about children or the 'younger' generation stomping over the older one.

without one being slightly contradicting to the other. Raest remains my pick for the most power directed towards combat in the books. He fought off Anomander, several Soletaken Andii and Silanah without his Finnest. It's possible that Gothos' Ritual that encased Lether was more powerful, but that's a slow working rather than a combat situation.

Someone will almost certainly come along that makes Raest look like a child. The young Malazan characters will eventually outdo the old.

Quote

2. Grizzin Farl be dead. It might be possible that he's Edgewalker now.

I'm not saying this isn't possible, but it seems an odd role for the Protector of "Nothing" to become Edgewalker. Edgewalker protects Shadow, or what is left of Kurald Emurhlan. Grizzin Farl protected things like silence or grief. They seem to protect different things and for an Azathanai/Elder God to be bound as Edgewalker is bound seems very odd. Something would have to change considerably and it hasn't yet. Perhaps it will in later books.

Quote

4. Anomander Rake is definitely top 3 most powerful characters in the malazan universe. Apart from being an extraordinary Tiste with his own will power, he also has the power of Mother Dark (chaos + Draconus's Azathanai Night power thingy), Soletaken powers (from Tiam later) and one of the smartest brains. There's one more power I can't remember, it's probably his power levels through K'rul's gift (ascendancy/emasculated god or whatever)..

I thought FoD actually brought Anomander down a little bit from unimpeachable ascendant with a genius plan spanning millennia to a very determined, socio-politically successful, gifted warrior who tries and fails to navigate the entire Tiste upper crust towards the better path. These books seem like they'll be a learning experience for Anomander - the genius plan comes together as atonement for the mistakes he made during this Tiste civil war and for the Draconus/Dragnipur debacle.

Gothos/Hood, I'm just putting it out there judging from all the books we've read so far. I could be wrong of course.

Raest never fought Anomander Rake. Also note that he was eventually taken by the Azath so he is definitely a top5 - top10 badass. On the other hand, consider Icarium, the most powerful character in the series being imprisoned by an Azath. I don't think any Azath could hold him.

Yeah, the Edgewalker/Grizzin Farl thing is just a stretch of course.

And yes, that's what I meant really. Post Tiam, draconus, civil war, mistakes, etc. etc., he grows to be a top 3 powerful character.

This post has been edited by spim: 22 August 2012 - 09:15 PM

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 22 August 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Slight correction.
Raest is very impressive but he actually never fought Rake during GoTM. Rake was not amoung the Andii Soletaken dragons that fought Raest in GoTM.
Raest is still up there as regards power displays in the books though. Maybe Draconus's entrance in DoD possibly would be up there as regards magical feats.

Good point - he fought four Soletaken Andii, Silanah, Quick Ben, Soletaken Paran, a witch and survived a Moranth bomb before the Azath that already had his Finnest took him. Yow.

[Aptorian]

I've always thought it was interesting that Raest was simply able to cut off Quick Ben from his warrens. How the hell does he do that. Is it a mental block? Does he actively control all warrens around him? Is he able to create areas around people or things that warrens can't reach?

[Anomander irake]

i thought Old Man would be K'Rul.. he must surely play a part in this story at some point as creator and host of the Warrens. But that would be later in the story , perhaps the third book

[Anomander irake]

i must say i think the biggest surprise in FoD is that the Tiste all where one people in the beginning. And that the Brothers Anomander,Andarist and Silchas are just favorites of mother dark not actual children as has been portrayed earlier. And that Andii is not the name of the race but a title bestowed upon Mother darks closest followers and advisors.
Osserc is but the son of a "lowborn" army commander. many surprises and more to come i guess.

This post has been edited by Anomander irake: 23 August 2012 - 11:34 AM

[Morgoth]

Wasn't it said several times that Draconus was punishing Arathan to get back at his mother who had left them. How does that go well with the idea that Arathan's mother is MD?

[Destiny]

I've got to say that I strongly dislike the idea of Arathan=Tayschrenn. To me it would kind of devalue all his accomplishments in MBotF. Instead of him being an exceptionally powerful mage, capable of at least holding his own against the likes of Anomander Rake, he becomes yet another EG in disguise. I feel like we have enough of those already.

Also, I don't believe that Korya is QB. I distinctly remember his older sister, who was called Torahaval Delat, thinking of young QB and calling him Ben Delat. So at the very least we know that Ben Delat was a human mage from 7C. He could possibly be a descendant of Korya, but I don't think he actually is her.

Grizzin Farl could be Ruthan Gudd now you mention it. But, again, I hope not. I'd just prefer it if he died/wandered off somewhere.

Old Man is just a giant mystery to me. First I thought he might be Mael, but he already exists it seems. So I'm at a loss.