[Johnny Phoenix]

Hey all. It's been a couple of years since I posted on this forum. I took a big break from reading the series and recently picked it back up. After plowing through Toll the Hounds and Dust of Dreams I decided to read RotCG before moving onto The Crippled God. I wouldn't call myself disapointed since I never expected it to be on par with Eriksons work but I still expected more from Esslemont, so I decided to come here to vent.

I'll start with what I liked about it. The plot is great. I found it interesting and complex. It was nice to finally see the Malazan Empire on its homefront. And even with its complexity, I found most of the loose ends tied up quite well. It was refreshing to read a story set in the Malazan world that didn't leave you with a million questions at the end. The action sequences are fantastic. They are intense and kept me on the edge of my seat. There is way more action in this book than any of Eriksons and in a series revolving around war and the military its nice to actually have it delivered generously instead of having to read through four hundred pages of philosophical conversations and musings before someone finally gets stabbed.

Now my complaints. I doubt I'm going to say anything that has not already been said, but I need to vent to someone and none of my friends read the series. First of all, the characters are pathetically shallow, even without comparing them to Eriksons. I never found myself forming any sort of emotional attatchments to anyone. Though I think Erikson sometimes overdoes it with character thoughts and introspective conversations, Esslemont doesn't do it at all. No one reflects much about anything and the conversations are generally straightforward dialogues about battle tactics and courses of action. Most of the characters are interchangable and offer little individuality, there is almost nothing that distinguishes one from another. As a result of this lack of emotional attatchment, I never felt any tension when these characters ended up in dangerous situations because I frankly did not care if they lived or died. And speaking of death, why are almost all the deaths just an afterthought? A battle ends and a character will go up to another one and tell them that so and so is dead now. A characters death should be personal. The reader should witness it, not read about it after the fact.

There was so much potential here to learn more about the leading figures of Kellanveds time, yet none were given any real character development. Perhaps Erikson does enough world building for the both of them, but I wanted more from this book. I wanted more insight on the motivations of these people. I wanted to learn more details as to what caused the rift between Laseen and her former allies. Instead it felt like a series of events with no real meaning or value.

The Crimson Guard was also extremely disapointing. The novel started off as though they would be the central characters but after about two hundred and fifty pages they become more of an afterthought. I was so looking forward to learning more about the Avowed, the Vow itself, the history of the Crimson Guard and their conflict with the Malazans but I was given nothing.

The consistency with the characters is terrible as well. You meet a couple of Crimson Guardsmen at the beginning that you hardly ever see again. Shimmer becomes a major character half-way through. Nait goes from one of the smallest roles then becomes one of the main character of the finale. Ghelel's story arc doesn't go anywhere, I understand that it is probably going to be continued but in this book she served virtually no purpose.

Last and most displeasing is the alarming number of typos, grammatical errors, punctuation errors and generally awkward sentences in the book. I hope Esslemonts editor was fired because this is really sloppy work for a major publishing. I caught several spelling mistakes. There are a lot of run-on sentences. He uses words redundantly all the time (I remember him describing two phalaxes colliding and he wrote something along the lines of "The two armies smashed into each other in a smashing of shields"), seems like he could have benefitted greatly from a thesaurus. I also caught him writing thought passages in third person a bunch of times. Like I said, it's just sloppy. Esslemont is clearly not half the writer Erikson is, and it really shows.

Anyway, that's about it. I'm on the Crippled God now and I can't say I'm looking forward to the rest of ICE's books, especially when he has been given some of the coolest things in the Malazan world to write about (The Crimson Guard, Assail, Seguleh, the Storm Wall, Traveller, etc.) that I wish Erikson would write instead. I will say that in the end I still enjoyed RotCG, but as a suppliment to Eriksons work and nothing more. I found the only reason this book kept my attention is because of the world-building Erikson already established. I can't see many people enjoying this without having read a few of the books in Eriksons series first.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I fully agree. As soon as I saw the title of this thread I assumed it was about Esslemont, or as I prefer to think of him, "the guy would who would never be a published and successful author if we weren't all such Erikson fans".

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Honestly, I wouldn't even give it as positive a review as you did. Some of the story points were decent, but absolutely ruined by a complete lack of characterisation and absolutely, often hilariously terrible writing; I read what could have been a fantastic scene - Kallor killing Ereko and onwards - out to my girlfriend and we were both almost in tears of laughter. At one point, I actually had to read an entire chapter twice because I'd read it earlier in the day and had completely forgotten. And while I have no problem with being left with more questions than answers, I get the distinct impression from RotCG that Esslemont won't be revisiting a lot of mysteries and shedding any light or reason on them; for example, why Cowl went insane and fed himself to the Deadhouse, why Snape or whatever his name was could use Kurald Thyrllan. Do I mind that these events weren't spoon-fed to me? No. But why did they have to happen the way they did? Hell, why did they have to happen? I just don't know or care. Compare it to moments like, say, Paran's deal with Hood in TBH, Heboric's weedlord dreams, the rain of jade statues. Weird as hell, not explained outright at all or for several books, but they served to enhance the story and you can see them driving further events to a greater or lesser extent. Erikson falls into the trap of being obfuscating for the sake of it maybe once or twice in three million words; it seems to be all Esslemont knows.

She's going to read Orb, Sceptre, Throne after finishing The Crippled God, so we'll find out if he does improve - I think I read somewhere that RotCG was actually the first book ICE wrote, and it wasn't so terrible as to make him completely beyond saving as an author. Just really generic fantasy in what happens to be a non-generic setting. I feel bad being so harsh on a book I've been looking forward to reading for years, but I really couldn't find much to redeem this novel.

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 12 August 2012 - 10:50 AM

[Tehol the Only]

I quite enjoied Rotcg but, as you said, only because of SE's worldbuilding. I don't want to sound rude but i think Esslemont's novels are really weak if you take them as stand-alone books, and become decent only if you consider them as showcases for some cool features which didn't get enough attention in the main series (the SEguleh, the old guard, the seguleh, the crimson guard, the seguleh, the fate of the empire, the seguleh, and those guys who wear enamel masks and fight with two longswords).

This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 12 August 2012 - 05:29 PM

[BloodIron]

[quote name='POOPOO MCBUMFACE' timestamp='1344768365' post='986852']
Honestly, I wouldn't even give it as positive a review as you did. Some of the story points were decent, but absolutely ruined by a complete lack of characterisation and absolutely, often hilariously terrible writing; I read what could have been a fantastic scene - Kallor killing Ereko and onwards - out to my girlfriend and we were both almost in tears of laughter.)

That your girlfriend reads these is incredible.

Onto business at hand. I can share the frustrations of work that seems rushed, poor editing, grammatical follies, ect. Its like hearing an album of a band you enjoy and you are wondering wtf was going on during recording, or if the sound engineer was drunk. Like, "man, this would be crushing except i can't stand the tightness of the symbols/ lack of bass presence/ that stupid ass thing that guy did on guitar" whatever. BUT, you still enjoy it because its a band you like and there isnt a whole lot else coming out so the other option is to try and listen to some band this friend of a friend recommends because "hey, I heard you were into this kinda of stuff and this band is really good".

The fact is, they suck. They don't give you the same feeling, the same memory or excitement and it becomes apparent to you that you are truly the only one with impeccable taste and everyone is super dumb.


So while it is frustrating, and according to POOPOO, laughable, its STILL Malazan. Its a world so engaging and unique we joined this forum to share of loves and hates of a series that makes us want to rip our hair out and secretly (or maybe not so secretly) wish we could summon Dragnipur or Burn's hammer when that neighbor doesn't cover their friggin garbage even though they KNOW the raccoons come every Wednesday night once garbage is put out and leave that sh*t all over your yard.

The hardest things for me is the lack of info on the Old Guard. These dudes were animals. Let us learn why and how. So much is mentioned about them without telling us anything and I think thats a frustration we all share when it came to ICE writing and us hoping those things would kinda be his forte or hoard to tell..

[Kanese S's]

You're all crazy.

[Cyclorrhapha]

Meh, Erikson needs to write a Kellanved and Dancer trilogy.

With all of the Old Guard in the Dramatis Personae think it would be an amazing read that gives us more information on them which this book failed to do.

[the broken]

Cyclorrharpha, on 13 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Meh, Erikson needs to write a Kellanved and Dancer trilogy.

With all of the Old Guard in the Dramatis Personae think it would be an amazing read that gives us more information on them which this book failed to do.

There isn't space in one book to do justice to all the Old Guard.

I liked this book, although I do think ICE was badly served by his editor.

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why Cowl went insane and fed himself to the Deadhouse

Explained. He wanted to die undefeated, theoretically.

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battle ends and a character will go up to another one and tell them that so and so is dead now

That's how battles happen. Noteveryone who deserves a badass last stand gets one.

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I wanted to learn more details as to what caused the rift between Laseen and her former allies

Explained in HOC. They didn't want to be implicated in the betrayal of K&D.

I'm not saying that the book is flawless, but I don't think it's quite as bad as you all think. The Siege of Li Heng will always stay with me as one of the few fantasy sieges in which both sides are competently commanded

[Kanese S's]

I agree with the broken. Also, in my opinion, ICE accomplished quite a bit in how he wrote Laseen. I hated that character before, and though she remained the same character, in his portrayal of the empress, Esslemont made me feel a huge loss at her death.

[Johnny Phoenix]

The broken, while I agree one book is not enough to give full justice to the Old Guard, 1000+ pages is enough to at least throw us a bone. There should have been more. And I completely disagree with your reasoning behind why character deaths are not witnessed. That may be how battles happen but this is a work of fiction (which is only as good as its characters), not a history book of statistics. And come to think of it, the battles in the book feel more like I am reading a history book than a novel.

I dunno, I'm probably still going to read his other entries but they are definitely not a priority like they used to be. It's just really sad that he doesn't do justice to his characters, especially the ones that we have all been dying to get to know in more depth.

[worry]

The Old Guard can cram it.

[Kanese S's]

Johnny Phoenix, on 16 August 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

The broken, while I agree one book is not enough to give full justice to the Old Guard, 1000+ pages is enough to at least throw us a bone. There should have been more. And I completely disagree with your reasoning behind why character deaths are not witnessed. That may be how battles happen but this is a work of fiction (which is only as good as its characters), not a history book of statistics. And come to think of it, the battles in the book feel more like I am reading a history book than a novel.

I dunno, I'm probably still going to read his other entries but they are definitely not a priority like they used to be. It's just really sad that he doesn't do justice to his characters, especially the ones that we have all been dying to get to know in more depth.

There are characters whose deaths happen off screen in Erikson's work as well.

[Soulcrusher]

I actually quite liked the book, though I thought Ghedel could shove it.

I enjoyed the development of Nait/Jumpy, the Siege of Li Heng and all of Rell's bad-ass-ery involved in that. The Crimson Guard came off as old and outdated which was fine for me and I liked the Malazan army and all it's quirks xD

[Seatiger]

I really liked this book.

[orangesoda]

I enjoyed the first chapter but about a third of the way through, I almost gave up entirely on this book. In addition to the points mentioned above about characterization and writing style, I feel like the book completely lacked any historical or even current day reference to the broader Malazan world we've come to know. Why wasn't Toc the Elder thinking about his son at all? Maybe they aren't on good terms but it would be great to find out why! Why was there no reference to the 14th army amongst any of the soldiers? I'm sure some were wishing for Quick Ben or Kindly or someone else to be there to help fight against the Crimson Guard. Tell us more about the Crimson Guard. Why did they form this vow? Take us back to the day when they did it. Let's get Shimmer's point of view on it.

The book lacked the continuous historical reference and allusions that I've really come to enjoy with Erickson. Characters can be talking about ancient ruins and one will point some historical significance - i.e. this is where Imass fought Jaghut and buried them under a rock or this is the location of the Just Wars between Forkrul Assail and the Tiste Liosan. Often those moments have no direct impact to the book but they add to the wonder and mystery of the universe and bring back some of the ancient beings and races we are all intrigued by.

Overall it was a pretty mediocre book. If it weren't for Erickson, this book would not be readable.

[Pig Iron]

I loved it, shock-full of stories, characters and ideas and a great read. The finale is up there with SE's convergences. The whole CG/Tiste Liosan/QoD story arc still has me very intrigued, even more so after FoD. And Esslemont is a nice complement to SE with their different styles. Looking forward to Blood and Bone.
xt

[Kanese S's]

orangesoda, on 02 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Why wasn't Toc the Elder thinking about his son at all?

They may have stopped speaking when his son joined the Claw. Or, you know, his son had been listed as dead a few years back (Toc the Younger, as far as the Malazans are concerned, disappears/gets killed in GotM).

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Why was there no reference to the 14th army amongst any of the soldiers?

Because their achievements had been largely ignored in favor of false rumors about Wickan treachery, and, well, they'd gone renegade. As I recall, there were a couple references, too.

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I'm sure some were wishing for Quick Ben or Kindly or someone else to be there to help fight against the Crimson Guard.

What? Quick Ben's prowess as a sorcerer is only really known of by some people in Onearm's Host (in Seven Cities at the time of RotCG, if I recall correctly), and by the Bonehunters (far away from the Empire at the time of RotCG, and renegade). Kindly, when we last saw him, was a Captain in the 14th. Why would anybody in RotCG even know who they were?

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Tell us more about the Crimson Guard. Why did they form this vow?

That question is answered in RotCG and other books. It was formed to fight the Malazan Empire, which had been taking over various lands on Quon Tali, including those of Prince K'azz.

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Take us back to the day when they did it. Let's get Shimmer's point of view on it.

I'm pretty sure there are some references to when the vow was made. I don't see the necessity of going back to it, any more than Erikson goes back to the day that Kellanved said "You know what, we should conquer some shit!" in his books.

Quote

The book lacked the continuous historical reference and allusions that I've really come to enjoy with Erickson. Characters can be talking about ancient ruins and one will point some historical significance - i.e. this is where Imass fought Jaghut and buried them under a rock or this is the location of the Just Wars between Forkrul Assail and the Tiste Liosan. Often those moments have no direct impact to the book but they add to the wonder and mystery of the universe and bring back some of the ancient beings and races we are all intrigued by.

Except that it did have that stuff. Not as much, no, but it's a shorter book than most of Erikson's.

[Scaramouche]

Hey, I've been rereading the Malazan books in order of chronology (ie. Both Esselmont's and Erickson's books, in the order of events happeningI had a quick continuity question, after reading RotCG (which, I will agree, felt kind of disjointed):

Spoiler

Toc the Elder did die in this book, right? Despite Hood telling Toc the Younger that his father was still alive (in Reaper's Gale, which follows chronologically AFTER RotCG)?

This post has been edited by Scaramouche: 14 September 2012 - 08:35 AM

[D'rek]

Scaramouche, on 14 September 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hey, I've been rereading the Malazan books in order of chronology (ie. Both Esselmont's and Erickson's books, in the order of events happeningI had a quick continuity question, after reading RotCG (which, I will agree, felt kind of disjointed):

Spoiler

Toc the Elder did die in this book, right? Despite Hood telling Toc the Younger that his father was still alive (in Reaper's Gale, which follows chronologically AFTER RotCG)?

Reaper's Gale is chronologically BEFORE Return of the Crimson Guard

Spoiler

1. Toc the Elder is alive as of the end of RG
2. Skinner becomes King of High House Chains at the end, which could not have happened before the end of RG

[Vaddon Ra]

I feel flaming ICE this much is a bit harsh. He might not have established himself as an auther like SE but I thoroughly enjoyed ROTCG and NOK. I actually think the finale to this book was terrific and despite not breaking down in tears at the end I feel that does not equate therefore to a bad fantasy book... So MOI made people cry...woop ROTCG made me smile and gave me an excited buzz.