[Trull's son]

I agree with most of this thread in that the book was pretty mediocre. The terrible first half of the book gave way to a decent end, I thought.

I'm not sure I understand the humour around the name Kyle. I mean, sure it is a bit... boring? But I don't think we get other names from that village against which to judge the blandness of Kyle's name. Maybe his father was named Keith. He had an uncle John! Would you have preferred his name be Ky'le, or something like that to give it the exotic spin?

I get what you're saying about Skinner, Second Sword. His rep far outweighed his skill, but then again, that was the case for most of the Crimson Guard and Old Guard. That said, Skinner's opponent is widely considered 'pretty good' at what he does.

Jumpy was the best part of the book.

[Saitama]

Disclaimer: I am a jaded person with a slightly overactive imagination, so if you read this particular post and disagree, you might be right.

Kyle is, like you said, a bit boring. Generic, even. Tell somebody you've just read a book with a protagonist named like that, and your friend will ask you which of the 10 million books you have in mind. Moreover, in the company of Ereko, Badlands, Shimmer etc. Kyle seems like a person from a different story. I could probably let it go if he was a young noble from Unta or something, but isolated tribes with a names like that... And for the first 1/3 of the book, I amused myself by thinking about "malazan book of the fallen by ICE" and coming up with the story of the Chain of Dogs and its leader, Chad of the Crow clan, his uncle Brad and imperial historian Joe. Good fun

My second thought: Kyle is a nice name. It is also a very popular name. Every tv show has at least two guys named Kyle. So whenever I read about a protagonist Kyle/Kylar etc, I view it as a kind of a shortcut for making the reader empathize with the hero. Due to its familiarity, its extremely easy to relate to a guy named Kyle. After all, you probably know at least one And lets face it, if you were in high school and wrote a supernatural novel, the protagonist would probably be Kyle. Or Cool McAwesome. But most likely Kyle

Since the Malazan world is extremely hard to get into, but incredibly rewarding if you finally get it, I don't like any shortcuts for a casual reader. Even if those shortcuts are just a product of my admittedly weird imagination
Contrast it with Patrick Rothfuss' Kvothe. While reading, I though: what kind of lame name is that? How can I even root for this guy if I don't know how to pronounce it right? But Rothfuss went on with his fantastic story without compromising it for my convenience. After all, it was HIS story to tell and I could take it or leave it. You can't help but respect a writer like that.

Coming back to Skinner: at one point I remember somebody saying that at his best, he could duel Dassem to a standstill. That is one hell of an achievement. The Seguleh 2nd seems to have a grudge against him. So in my mind, Skinner was more or less in the top 3 'living' swordsmen, depending on how good the first Seguleh is. And here we have him, fighting more with his brute strength than technique and relying on his magical armor (and getting hit frequently). He is a good tank, sure, but calling him a master swordsman? I remain unconvinced.

And Jumpy wasn't bad, my favourite moment of the book is when he asks Tourmaline about the name thing.

[Trull's son]

You have a point with the name thing. I definitely know a Kyle or three. I never considered the name choice as a method of creating inherent character sympathy.

What you said about Skinner has me thinking. It is not impossible that Skinner lost some of his skill over time. Now, he's probably a couple centuries old and on some level it is impossible for him to lose all of his skill, but nothing suggests that Crimson Guard can't get rusty from lack of practice or an over-dependence on magic armour.

It reminds me of Kulp's musing on Iron Bars in MT, when he tries to place Bars' skill relative to Blues and Skinner. I am pretty sure that Kulp ends up re-evaluating Iron Bars position in the "rankings" by the end of that book (feel free to correct me if I am wrong in that). After what Bars went through in Assail pre-MT, along with ICE's treatment of his character, it would not be surprising if Bars actually eclipses some of the old inactive Guardsmen.

[Saitama]

Over-dependence hmm... You may be onto something. The armour was given to Skinner by his new patron, Ardata, who if I recall correctly is an ancient goddess and has some relationship with witches, she may even be one herself. If we go with this train of thought, Skinner might be influenced by her (let's assume) more 'wild' approach to things and thus his focus on strength, which was already his forte. Going further, this would match nicely with a (very) hypothethical triangle: the Seguleh focusing mostly on technique, Skinner on strength and Dassem mastering both thus becoming the ultimate swordsman.

I still think that we overthink things and it was just ICE's clumsy writing, but paraphrasing that hot girl from 'Man of Steel': A good theory is its own reward.

And I hope that Bars will get even stronger than Skinner, his attitude in MT was awesome.

[Egwene]

Just finished re-reading RotCG and again enjoying it very much. Not sure how I felt about Kyle when I first read the book but he was one of my favourites on this re-read. Who cares about a name - it is the deeds that maketh the man!

Agree with Second Sword about Jumpy. Loved his PoV every time. He'd fit right in with Fiddler and his fellow sergeants. Jumpy's story arc gives an idea of how those legends might have started.

[Stormcat]

It is pronounced Ki-ley.

[worry]

Kylie Minogue would make a pretty good fantasy name.

[BellaGrace]

Just finished this book and agree it was "meh" at best. I didn't want to start a new thread just to make this observation...

What bugs me most about ICE is how vague he is about who is speaking and who people are.

It's hard to tell who is speaking sometimes - it's all just jumbled up in the paragraph - even worse, he refuses to name people in the scene in order to be mysterious but it just really irritates me. Nothing is really gained by not saying up front who those people are. If it's Topper say so, if it's one of the Crust brothers SAY SO. The new guy in the pits is named "Grief" and we later find out he's really "Blues" - Why not just call himself that - no one reading or in the pit would have known that name. Same with the "wildman" - that got dragged out too long until I just didn't care who he was - and even after the reveal that he was part of Dassem's sword I couldn't remember what that guys name was (I remembered him from NoK, just not the name). Plus, too many times a character will be asked a question and answer with "someone is interfering that shouldn't be" or "I'm here hunting someone" - it's just vague and confusing for no reason what purpose does that serve - just answer the damn question.

Am I alone in this? I know Erikson has mystery/vagueness, but not on this level and not as irritating.

[worry]

Let's just say he becomes a much better overall writer (starting immediately with Stonewielder) but these particular tics of his (delayed POV IDs and character code names) don't ever go away entirely.

[Melnibonean Wanderer]

ICE's Laseen and Mallick were the high points of this one. I did like how things turned out with Yath. Overall, I preferred Night of Knives for the horror vibes and the frantic, almost shaky-cam feel of the story.

[Soulcrusher]

I don't know it it's because i first started the Malazan world with this book(random gift card buy many many years ago, didn't really understand it all then went back to it during the reading order and totally loved it) or not, but this is definatly my favourite ICE book~! Love the CG, love laseen, jumpy, storr, enjoyed the whole book ^^

[Kruppe of Darujhistan]

Wow, this book is a really hard read. I go from devouring hundreds of pages at a time from The Malazan Book of the Fallen and only stop due to exhaustion, picking the story up again at my first opportunity and then reading hundreds and hundreds of more pages. I can't get enough! But RotCG? OMG, it's a torturous chore to go back to after a mere 50 pages. What a disappointment. It's like bad fan-fiction.
This book takes itself way too seriously, IMO. I could go on and on but others have made my points for me, so I will just jump to my single biggest problem with this book. It is in no way funny. Erikson has me laughing just as much as he has me crying. Wonderment and awe one minute and bellylaughing the next. Kruppe, Iskaral Pust, Squad conversations and God conversations. Very often a laugh a minute. But RotCG? Dry as a bone in the Glass Desert! The only remotely funny bit was Braven Tooth christening Nait "Jumpy," and even that little bit of humor only highlighted the lack of it throughout the book. Ugh.

[Kanese S's]

Kruppe of Darujhistan, on 13 September 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Wow, this book is a really hard read. I go from devouring hundreds of pages at a time from The Malazan Book of the Fallen and only stop due to exhaustion, picking the story up again at my first opportunity and then reading hundreds and hundreds of more pages. I can't get enough! But RotCG? OMG, it's a torturous chore to go back to after a mere 50 pages. What a disappointment. It's like bad fan-fiction.
This book takes itself way too seriously, IMO. I could go on and on but others have made my points for me, so I will just jump to my single biggest problem with this book. It is in no way funny. Erikson has me laughing just as much as he has me crying. Wonderment and awe one minute and bellylaughing the next. Kruppe, Iskaral Pust, Squad conversations and God conversations. Very often a laugh a minute. But RotCG? Dry as a bone in the Glass Desert! The only remotely funny bit was Braven Tooth christening Nait "Jumpy," and even that little bit of humor only highlighted the lack of it throughout the book. Ugh.

I think you take yourself too seriously.


Also I found a lot of parts funny. How is the scene of the feared, mighty Crimson Guard having showing up to liberate the continent from the Mezla pigdogs, only to end up having to turtle up to escape being pelted by the townsfolk of Unta not hilarious? And the people who keep that port town racket going, playing both sides, only to end up getting the town burnt to the ground? With Black's reaction, specifically. And Huek, also funny. And the defenders of Li Heng. Seriously lots of humor in this book.

[shovelbum]

Might as well throw in my opinion and theory:

The name Kyle aside (Every sentence using this name disrupts immersion. Only Bob could be a worse choice.), I was generally enjoying this book up until around page 150 or so. Around that point, two scenes immediately bothered me:

Around page 162, Ereko and Dassem encounter the Tiste Edur: "Ereko, however, chose to watch the battle betrayed on this young girl's face as one faith held as immutable truth met the incarnation of another. Which would win? So far, of all the spiritual crises he'd witnessed in those open to them, Traveller--or rather that which travels with him--had won." Battle skipped. Cringe-worthy dialogue follows. The girl's name is Sorrow. Really?

What does that first sentence even mean? Dassem deserves better writing. He has a grudge with Death, for Hood's sake! I thought Ereko was going to be cool...

Shortly after, page 166:

Twisty: The Warrens...Good question. Hardly anyone actually knows...do you have brotherhoods, groups of men or women?
Kyle: Yes. We have warrior societies...
Twisty: Well you might think of the Warrens that way. Each one has its own way of doing things. Its own secret words, symbols and rituals, That's all there is to it. Sadly puerile, really."

I hate this dialogue. "Hardly anyone knows" is such a stupid response, and then Twisty proceeds to explain anyway. So apparently Twisty is one of the few in the know, even though there are many more sophisticated mages than he. The use of the word societies from a junior mercenary named Kyle who comes from the wind people is just so Hood-damned unbelievable and immersion breaking. And puerile, by the way, means 1. juvenile 2. childish, silly. This has to be a diction error. I believe ICE resorted to a thesaurus for a word like simple or simplistic and fished out puerile but had no idea of the connotation.

At any rate, having a character dismiss the warrens with "hardly anyone actually knows" and "puerile" is mindless, bad writing. Fan disservice, really.

Return of the Crimson Guard is all downhill for me after those two scenes. I can't help but pick every nit, now. The fragments. The questionable diction. The redundancies. The tense and person inconsistencies. The exclamation points. All the Malls and Rells. The guy defending Li Heng who is basically a shallow Skulldeath. Ho, Grief, and Treat should basically be renamed Hu, Wut, and Ida Know and placed on a baseball diamond in order to be taken more seriously.

My theory is that SE guided/edited/re-wrote the first 150 pages to give the book enough of a hook to allow it to be readable.

Sorry for the rant. I am a Malazan fan, and I've got ~400 pages to go in RotCG. Reading a series I enjoy isn't supposed to hurt.

This post has been edited by shovelbum: 12 February 2018 - 06:33 PM

[Abyss]

shovelbum, on 12 February 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

... The guy defending Li Heng who is basically a shallow Skulldeath. ...

Disagree. RAFO.

[shovelbum]

Abyss, on 12 February 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

shovelbum, on 12 February 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

... The guy defending Li Heng who is basically a shallow Skulldeath. ...

Disagree. RAFO.

Ok. Finished Return.

I take back shallow, but

Spoiler

I enjoyed Felash's handmaiden more.

Such a frustrating book.

Enjoyed the Possum parts quite a bit. Wish Nil and Nether passed QB while charging through the Abyss.

Author bit off more than he could chew, I think.

This post has been edited by shovelbum: 24 February 2018 - 12:59 AM