[Vaddon Ra]

So while it is frustrating, and according to POOPOO, laughable, its STILL Malazan. Its a world so engaging and unique we joined this forum to share of loves and hates of a series that makes us want to rip our hair out and secretly (or maybe not so secretly) wish we could summon Dragnipur or Burn's hammer when that neighbor doesn't cover their friggin garbage even though they KNOW the raccoons come every Wednesday night once garbage is put out and leave that sh*t all over your yard.

Oh that's no secret in my life at all. I'm hoping someone will craft a lifesize Dragnipur and some seguleh masks / suits and I'll just walk around in those... plus being able to turn into a smog black dragon and tear stuff up would be sweet... It's no secret...I wish Malazan's world was real XD

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

Very disjointed novel. I wouldn't call it crap, but average at best. There were some interesting moments like the battle at the Spur, the confrontation at Li Heng, the Guard's entry into Mael's realm. I found the final confrontation underwhelming and Laseen's death failed to resonate. The characters are far too shallow and the prose is quite sloppy, although it somewhat improves towards the end.

On another note, I keep hearing people say Esslemont surpasses Erikson in his depiction of action scenes (based only off RoTCC, as I haven't read any of his other books), yet I found most of ICE's action scenes very cartoony compared to Erikson's. Sure there is a fair amount of grit, but it lacks the sense of despair we got from events like the siege of Capustan, the Chain of Dogs or Y'Ghatan. I never got the impression that there was any real danger for the characters even though some of them did bite the dust.

In the end, I'd say it was a serviceable book in bringing insight on the Crimson Guard and the heartland of the Malazan empire.

This post has been edited by BlackMoranthofDoom: 07 April 2013 - 03:47 PM

[Kaamos]

I'm finding this a chore to read as well, and 3/4 of a mind to turn it into sauna stove kindlings. Agreeing with the opinions above about the shallowness of the all-too-frequently-changing characters to the point I cannot recall a few tens of pages afterwards about whom or what I had just read. A shame, since I enjoyed OST and, while not as well-crafted as the previous, the atmosphere of NoK as well. I acknowledge the superior position of SE, but had not expected something this shoddy from ICE.

Quote

Last and most displeasing is the alarming number of typos, grammatical errors, punctuation errors and generally awkward sentences in the book. I hope Esslemonts editor was fired because this is really sloppy work for a major publishing. I caught several spelling mistakes. There are a lot of run-on sentences. He uses words redundantly all the time (I remember him describing two phalaxes colliding and he wrote something along the lines of "The two armies smashed into each other in a smashing of shields"), seems like he could have benefitted greatly from a thesaurus. I also caught him writing thought passages in third person a bunch of times. Like I said, it's just sloppy.

THIS, and I'm not even a native English speaker. Yet frequent typos and lumbering sentences, even sudden tense shifts, stab at my eyes as well.

So the question stands: cross my fingers and buy the other ICE novels (You won't be able to find these in the local libraries even with an electronic microscope...) or leave him be?

[Seiko]

Zorm, on 03 July 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'm finding this a chore to read as well, and 3/4 of a mind to turn it into sauna stove kindlings. Agreeing with the opinions above about the shallowness of the all-too-frequently-changing characters to the point I cannot recall a few tens of pages afterwards about whom or what I had just read. A shame, since I enjoyed OST and, while not as well-crafted as the previous, the atmosphere of NoK as well. I acknowledge the superior position of SE, but had not expected something this shoddy from ICE.

Quote

Last and most displeasing is the alarming number of typos, grammatical errors, punctuation errors and generally awkward sentences in the book. I hope Esslemonts editor was fired because this is really sloppy work for a major publishing. I caught several spelling mistakes. There are a lot of run-on sentences. He uses words redundantly all the time (I remember him describing two phalaxes colliding and he wrote something along the lines of "The two armies smashed into each other in a smashing of shields"), seems like he could have benefitted greatly from a thesaurus. I also caught him writing thought passages in third person a bunch of times. Like I said, it's just sloppy.

THIS, and I'm not even a native English speaker. Yet frequent typos and lumbering sentences, even sudden tense shifts, stab at my eyes as well.

So the question stands: cross my fingers and buy the other ICE novels (You won't be able to find these in the local libraries even with an electronic microscope...) or leave him be?

ROTCG was, for the most part, written many years before it was published. I enjoyed it, but there's no debating that his following efforts are a major improvement. Since you enjoyed OST, I'd say buy the others. Stonewielder is my personal favourite from ICE.

This post has been edited by Seiko: 03 July 2013 - 04:38 PM

[Abyss]

If one deeply despised RCG, well, maybe more ICE is not worthwhile. The MBF stands very solid on its own even if a few bits and pieces may not crystallize without reading ICE's parallel books.

That said, I think all of ICE's books are a great parallel read alone and with SE's and add something very worthwhile to the overall Malazanverse... effectively doubling the goodness. I also think he improved steadily in many respects along the way.
On that basis I'd reco reading SW, OST and B&B (also NoK if you haven't). There may be parts that don't rock your world, but overall i think they've very worth the money and time.

I freely admit i'm biased, but i'm biased because i've read and enjoyed them all.

[Kaamos]

Well...if the Crimson Guard was treated that way (together with a poor editor), it might explain something.

I did mention above I had read Night of Knives and OST (the latter very much out of sync...a mighty avalanche of spoilers, considering I haven't finished even the hound-tolling brick yet, but that's my own fault), and liked both, although NoK's style seemed...in the lack of a better description, juvenile. Now, however, RotCG feels like chewing soggy carpet, especially when read concurrently with a volume from the patron series. Had expected more or less an improvement to NoK, as I believed that was his debut novel.
He appears stronger while concentrating on fewer characters (f.ex. Temper in NoK)--too frequent shifts, however, and one ends up with a boxful of ragged cardboard cutouts.

I purchase mine second-hand online; usually they're around 4€ or so, not a huge loss, but they do devour shelf space. Especially these large-print paperbacks I prefer to the pocket format. Hmm, perhaps I'll have to toss a coin after DoD, and see whether to pursue ICE or not. Or read a couple of reviews.

[Abyss]

For what it's worth, SW is generally considered an improvement on NoK and RCG. OST is a peculiar beast, being a semi-sequel to SE's TtH...
B&B.... ICE did something different with that book pacing and story-wise and it worked for some (me included) and not for others.


I'd suggest finishing DoD and TCG and then give SW a try.

[Khazduk]

/wave @ Zorm

Imho SW is where ICE has peaked, so far. Both his writing and the characterization feels like his own there.

In OST he pulls off a credible Kruppe, and that's good enough for me. Apart from that, it's a bit like a poor man's TtH without the awesome epicness (maybe a bit too harsh - or not).

BaB is mostly OK, but you need to get your head around the hazy jungle feel. But it suffers almost as much as RotCG from lack of good editing. Can't access the book right now, but for instance the phrase "he/she looked at him/her as if to say" pops up about 10 times in 5 pages, and that is hella annoying tbh. As is the constant use of "cyclopean". Other available words off the top of my head (also as non-native English speaker): "big", "gigantic", "huge", "gargantuan", "not small" etc.

[Kaamos]

Right, I'll give SW a try . Slipshod editing induces teeth-gritting, so maybe I'll spare some enamel by skipping the other. We'll see.

Hej hej Khazduk!

Khazduk, on 04 July 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

As is the constant use of "cyclopean". Other available words off the top of my head: "big", "gigantic", "huge", "gargantuan", "not small" etc.

That may occur after a Lovecraft diet of a couple of months. Noticed the same effect seeping into my own *cough*fanficcing*cough* at one point.

[Abyss]

Cyclopean suggests a level of weird or non-human context, ie not just huge but alien, built by something that has a completely different pespective.

It bothers me as a word because it's rooted in Greek/Roman mythology and there are no cyclopses in the series, but there is a reason to use it.

[Khazduk]

Abyss, on 05 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

It bothers me as a word because it's rooted in Greek/Roman mythology and there are no cyclopses in the series, but there is a reason to use it.

I couldn't help thinking about poor Polyphemos about to be stabbed in the eye, each and every time it popped up. (OK, slight exaggeration.) But nevertheless jarring, at least for me. But ICE is in good company, to be fair. SE does it too in DoD or TCG (iirc) with "Achilles" (tendon). But I guess there are already threads about this elsewhere. />

[worry]

Abyss, on 05 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

It bothers me as a word because it's rooted in Greek/Roman mythology and there are no cyclopses in the series

Uh, Toc the Younger!

[Sinisdar Toste]

cyclopean is originally from a greek word used to describe a type of building which used raw stones set atop one another without mortar. these stones were usually large, big enough so that only a cyclops could pick one up by itself, as they are giants in greek myth. sometimes it's the only word to describe what you're getting at, although i haven't read the book since the first time, so i cant remember if it appeared overly-much.

[Khazduk]

I guess I'm just too one-eyed to see past the etymology (circle-eyed).

But still, once the author has established that a certain continent has a certain type of architecture, it could be left at that.

[Kaamos]

I've little by little arrived to the conclusion that certain loanwords just have to be accepted as they sit (I also tend to stare at etymologies). Berserker (not wearing a bear-hide shirt), colossal (not spec. relating to a huge statue), saturnine (not born under Saturn), etc. or original meanings like thunder (traipsing back to the name of an ancient Germanic thunder god, just like Finnish "Ukkonen" (Ukko is the highest sky/thunder deity)). Languages mutate over the centuries, after all; English alone incorporates countless loans from Latin, Greek, French (proceeding Latin), and so forth.

[justsomefarmer]

There are about three or so curious occasions where a character mouths a sentence to another that surely no one would ever figure out. I have enough trouble figuring out "colourful."

[blood on ice]

Just 200 pages in, but I'm liking it so far.
After finishing FoD a couple of days ago it's a real relief NOT to have any philosophing, overthinking and plot procrastinating characters in it.
This aspect is way overdone in SE's writing. Nice to have a faster pace of the action again for a change.

[Dolmen 2.0]

blood on ice, on 31 January 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Just 200 pages in, but I'm liking it so far.
After finishing FoD a couple of days ago it's a real relief NOT to have any philosophing, overthinking and plot procrastinating characters in it.
This aspect is way overdone in SE's writing. Nice to have a faster pace of the action again for a change.

RotCG was a favourite for me. Best of ICE at the very least. I like your reasoning, love SEs writing to death but some of the heavier content drags interest while RotCG starts off with a decent clip and I am sure you will love the way it ends. Part of me wonders how SE would have approached the story but I have to give it to ICE it was a leap ahead of his previous work.

[Kaamos]

Blaah did that brick really gather dust for half a year in my shelf after the liberal complaints? Anyhow, restarted it last week and have advanced halfway through. Granted, the progress has become speedier, but the quality still irks me. Mostly interested in following Dassem and Ereko's journey now, even if the latter feels akin to a diminished Saltheart Foamfollower (those two should go on a pub crawl together and share tales about being the last of their respective giant-kins over pints of diamondraught...). Even more numerous POV shifts than SE utilizes to discombobulate the reader, and for once I miss the philosophizing!
Fetched Stonewielder a couple of days back from the post office, so not giving up on ICE yet! Planning to read anything that chronologically occurs before The Crippled God afore plunging headlong into the midst of said volume.

This post has been edited by Kaamos: 31 January 2014 - 02:49 PM

[Saitama]

"A mediocre book at best"

Agreed. Although better than NoK, it took me way too much time to read simply because i had more 'slightly less boring' things to do. There were interesting parts of the story, but most of the characters were one-dimensional and that killed the immersion for me.

On the plus side: Laseen.

Some of the cons:
- Every time I read about a guy from an isolated tribe named Kyle, I couldn't stop laughing.
- For such hyped up characters, Cowl and Skinner fail miserably. The first one goes down with a case of crazy at the end, and the 'master swordsman' in an actual duel seems more like a butcher that survives only thanks to his magical armor.
- For a supposedly good guy, Storo released the calamity that is Ryllandaras far too easily without minding the consequences. Felt kinda forced.
- Ho guarding his identity throughout the book (ICE's constant 'look at this guy he totaly has a terrible secret' every 50 pages) only to blurt it out to some random guy he met 5 minutes earlier so that the readers finally get to know what the mystery was. Clumsy writing.

Not a terrible book, and it definitely has its moments.

It's just that when I try to think about any really, really memorable parts, I can't come up with anything despite reading the book recently