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Haven't quite been able to bring myself to finish that story off. It's very different from the Hedge Knight, but it was a little boring for me. Should get round to it though. Bad form otherwise.
;p
George RR Martin
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MultiQuote#82 Guest_Rallick Nom_*
Posted 30 April 2004 - 11:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Warhammer:
quote:
iirc, he never planned for AFfC did he?
That's what I was trying to say. He did not plan for AFfC originally. Book four was planned to be ADwD, until a couple of years ago he changed his mind.
Edited: On westeros.org I found this old mail from GRRM himself
quote:
Post #51: July 08, 1999 at 01:23:48
All that information was accurate at the time. Stories grow, and sometimes more quickly than dragons.
The series will be six books. A STORM OF SWORDS will be next, then A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, then THE WINDS OF WINTER. I am not completely decided on the title of the last volume yet. My contract says A TIME FOR WOLVES, but I am not completely happy with that and will probably change it if I come up with something I like better.
So originally:
AGOT - ACOK - ASOS - ADWD - TWOW - ATFW
no AFFC
Good lord, SEVEN novels? I'll be lucky if I'm not dead by the time he finishes, let alone GRRM himself.
#83 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 29 March 2004 - 04:36 AM
If Syrio and Jacquen were the same character, then Jacquen would have asked for help before the... However, they might be related or associated in some way. The same goes for Daario. There may be a connection, but if there are political motives, a band of faceless men makes more sense.
#85 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 24 January 2005 - 03:07 PM
And deadline makes it sound like he's some sort of reporter. A true author has no deadlines 
.
BM
.BM
#86 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 01 May 2004 - 10:16 AM
I don't lose sleep over the fact that Martin's book hasn't been released yet. Heck, I don't even think about it until I see this thread and feel like venting a little. I just find it ironic that some people dole out the criticism so easily at other authors yet when it comes to Martin they defend him to their dying breath.
You also talk like Martin is above all other authors because his ASOIAF series has been successful. I would love to see some actual sales numbers for his series (can you find those anywhere on the net?) just to compare him with authors of other genres. Regardless, I think he is a well respected author in fantasy but as many of us know fantasy writing isn't exactly mainstream.
No one is perfect and no matter what you post on here I still think this delay is ridiculous. It's that simple. I won't repeat my reasons for this. I'm well aware that AFFC was never meant to be written and after a year or so he realized it needed to be included. Fair enough. Now it has been three years of him writing ONLY AFFC and still nada.
So to sum it up I will buy AFFC immediately when it comes out and will probably love it like the other three novels. Yet I will still be angry that I had to wait so long to read a book that is in the middle of an ongoing series.
You also talk like Martin is above all other authors because his ASOIAF series has been successful. I would love to see some actual sales numbers for his series (can you find those anywhere on the net?) just to compare him with authors of other genres. Regardless, I think he is a well respected author in fantasy but as many of us know fantasy writing isn't exactly mainstream.
No one is perfect and no matter what you post on here I still think this delay is ridiculous. It's that simple. I won't repeat my reasons for this. I'm well aware that AFFC was never meant to be written and after a year or so he realized it needed to be included. Fair enough. Now it has been three years of him writing ONLY AFFC and still nada.
So to sum it up I will buy AFFC immediately when it comes out and will probably love it like the other three novels. Yet I will still be angry that I had to wait so long to read a book that is in the middle of an ongoing series.
#87 Guest_Pale Remnants_*
Posted 26 February 2005 - 12:07 PM
Just bought online GRRMS "Windhaven". Review below.
Windhaven is a world where the only land is in the form of small islands in a stormy sea. It's only inhabitants are the descendants of a crashed Earth colony ship who live a low-technology existence on those islands. One of the major forms of communication on Windhaven is messages carried by the flyers who use wings crafted from the spaceship's materials to fly between the islands, the wings are highly prized and passed down only through the elite flyer families. The main theme of this books concerns the efforts of the ordinary citizens of Windhaven, particuarily the book's heroine, to be allowed the chance to be able to become flyers. The more conservative of the flyer families resist the idea of others also being allowed to fly and this book deals with the conflict between the two groups. Like Martin's other books the characters are what makes this book good, as well as the convincing and original world. Fans of his major series, A Song of Ice and Fire should not be disapointed although the theme and feel of the book bears more similarity to Anne Mcaffrey's Pern series than Martin's other books. In summary, an entertaining book that is well worth reading
Windhaven is a world where the only land is in the form of small islands in a stormy sea. It's only inhabitants are the descendants of a crashed Earth colony ship who live a low-technology existence on those islands. One of the major forms of communication on Windhaven is messages carried by the flyers who use wings crafted from the spaceship's materials to fly between the islands, the wings are highly prized and passed down only through the elite flyer families. The main theme of this books concerns the efforts of the ordinary citizens of Windhaven, particuarily the book's heroine, to be allowed the chance to be able to become flyers. The more conservative of the flyer families resist the idea of others also being allowed to fly and this book deals with the conflict between the two groups. Like Martin's other books the characters are what makes this book good, as well as the convincing and original world. Fans of his major series, A Song of Ice and Fire should not be disapointed although the theme and feel of the book bears more similarity to Anne Mcaffrey's Pern series than Martin's other books. In summary, an entertaining book that is well worth reading
#88 Guest_Drake Labatt_*
Posted 17 December 2004 - 03:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fool:
And thats more important than posting on this glorious board?
Anyway, watcha all think of this review, which i came across at amazon.
(note: i dont agree with much of it, i just thought it was interesting)
quote:
George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, of which the Game of Thrones is the first of a projected seven volumes (the fourth of which is due to be published in mid-2004), is the most overrated fantasy series of the day. The poor writing and the lack of likeable or believable characters combine to create an unworkable mess.
<snip>
BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!
I shouldn't have ignored this thread.
Okay, if it isn't obvious to anyone else, I'll spell it out.
This post would only be made on Amazon. No where else. It's obviously the work of an employee of a rival publisher, or someone seriously upset that ASoIaF has totally crushed their favourite fantasy series.
The poster is trying to do as much damage as possible where it will do the most good - Amazon. Turn people off there and you hurt Bantam's sales. Post that to a message board and you get flamed - it does no good in the end.
Zollo, while your reply was well-thought out and such, it's totally lost because the post you're replying to is almost a political statement, made purely for commercial reasons. Don't waste your brainspace on rebutting something so obviously the product of jealousy.
I remember reading some book reviews several years back on a website, and I liked one of the reviewers - she seemed to be fair and objective. She also really liked Melanie Rawn, and she mostly reviewed 'fringe' novels, nothing that would make the SFSite.com top ten. Well, when she posted her review of AGoT, it was very similar to this Amazon post. I howled with laughter as I read why she thought GRRM was such a ****ty author, all the while seeing between the lines her jealousy that GRRM's skillz were far beyond the mediocre fantasy that she got off on.
Ah well, such is life. It's a good thing the 'net exists and provides forums like this. All this anger and resentment in the world. At least people can get it off their chests - if they had to keep it all bottled up, they'd kill themselves!
#89
RodeoRanch 
- The Midnight Special
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Posted 30 April 2004 - 02:54 PM
Because of his beard and the fact that he looks like a hobbit? 
#90 Guest_Caldazar_*
Posted 20 January 2005 - 04:39 PM
4+ years. Will be close to 5 by the time it's released.
#91
Mort
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 01:55 PM
@Warhammer et al - thanks for the information.
I agree with the irony about the 5 year gap... who says life don't imitate art?
DD Said:
Just be glad he isn't Bottle - the post would be a page long!
I agree with the irony about the 5 year gap... who says life don't imitate art?
DD Said:
quote:
posted 29 April 2004 01:05 PM
@Loose: There's no need to make a good point. That was completely uncalled for, so just be quiet. OK?
Just be glad he isn't Bottle - the post would be a page long!
#92 Guest_Zollo_*
Posted 06 December 2004 - 12:47 AM
Long time lurker here, but couldn't keep myself from writing a reaction to the review that was posted on the previous page.
For starters, to get things straight: I am both a huge Erikson and Martin fan, though for different reasons and in different ways. Furthermore I am not part of the hallelujah-Jordan movement, nor am I off the opinion that his work is garbage.
George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, of which the Game of Thrones is the first of a projected seven volumes (the fourth of which is due to be published in mid-2004),
Heh, sadly, no AFFC as of yet, spring next year if we're lucky.
>>is the most overrated fantasy series of the day. The poor writing and the lack of likeable or believable characters combine to create an unworkable mess.>>
Yep, it is important to start a review with a catchy phrase, leaving no doubt whatsoever about the direction of the following review and the lack of objectivity.
Martin's show-biz mind comes up with numerous ludicrous moments. His "heroes" are impossible to take seriously because they keep doing impossibly dumb things such as putting themselves and their families into the hands of their enemies. His "villains" are impossible to take seriously because they are incapable of successfully assassinating a middle aged woman, or, for that matter, a young child.
Hugely taken out of context. I would really like to know how the reviewer fabricated this piece of stunning 'evidence'.
(The fact that Martin's characters are generally trying to commit such deeds makes for extremely unpleasant as well as frustrating reading).
It is a wonder the man made it to the last page.
The scare quotes two paragraphs above indicate the moral ambiguity of Martin's universe. He does not really believe in heroism or villainy, which makes for an extremely blah story. Granted that two-shaded, black or white storytelling is _almost_ as mindless as writing gets, Martin still does not improve on this. He actually falls short of even that low standard. His one shade of gray in the middle for everybody is even more mindless. It also creates a story that is inherently uninteresting - why should the reader care who "wins" when one character is as good/bad as another?
Because Martins characters are grey (=human)in general means that they are less interesting? The reviewer would prefer a story in which shiny goodlooking heroes enter the stage to run through shifty-eyed, evil cackling villains?
Like horror movie protagonists, Martin's characters are often defenestrated, throat-slashed, thrown into the river, or set on fire - yet they just keep coming. The extremely graphic violence would be less unbearable if it weren't all so ineffective.
Violence? A lot? Yes, that is true. The world of Westeros is basically set in the Middle Ages. Not one of the most peaceful eras.
Extremely graphic? Well, no idea, one persons definition of extremely graphic does not equal everyones opinion. Since I have never seen nor heard about an age ban....
The motivations and actions of the characters are completely unbelievable. How much familial loyalty would a real man have left if his father had the young man's girlfriend raped by an entire company of soldiers (including the young man's brother) because she was unworthy of their family?
Hmm, lets see. Here our reviewer aims at something essential in Martins books. As it turns out, the latters characters are wholly unbelievable. This is supported by an example of how family loyalty might be affected if X happened (see quote).
Woo woo! Here comes the clue train. Last stop is you! You are apparently of the opinion that the characterization is essentially wrong, fine. Backing up such an accusation by using an incorrectexample though.... Sorry, mister Reviewer, but am I to take you serious? Did you even read the books?
That Martin revels in such moments is bad enough. That his characters' responses to them are so flat goes far beyond the bounds of credibility. Fantasy setting or not, people are simply not like this. No author who understands human nature so little can have much of interest to say.
Yes, well, it turned out your one example to strengthen this claim, is an incorrect one.
Martin believes that he has single-handedly discovered a major flaw common to almost all other writers: that their major characters inevitably survive to the end (or close to the end) of the production. He does not understand that he is putting the cart before the horse, and so missing the point entirely. Of course other authors have "mortal" characters. However, other authors are simply intelligent enough to realize that the major characters of a work (or a real-life episode) are generally to be found among those who are alive for a significant part of it, and to construct their storytelling accordingly. By repeatedly focusing on characters who shortly thereafter meet their demises, Martin succeeds only in punishing his readers with a series of unproductive false starts.
Erm...yeah...lets see...major characters huh? The first book had 8 POV's. One didn't make it to the end of that book. The second book had the 7 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. They all made it to the end of the book (though one of the new ones dissappeared from the stage for the time being). The third book started out with the 8 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. 1 of them didn't make it to the end of the book. So at the end of book 3, after a couple of thousand pages, 6 POV's from the first book are still around, 2 didn't make it and a total of 9 POV's is alive and kicking as we speak. At least two more POV's will be joining the feast in the next book.
Martin's writing is similar in many ways to that of another very flawed writer, one whose many faults are more widely recognized: Terry Goodkind. Martin shares Goodkind's penchant for violence and sex, though Martin's versions are even more graphic and unappealing (he does, fortunately, lack Goodkind's particular brand of sappy smarminess). Nevertheless, the comparison ultimately favors Goodkind because he can at least wrap a story up, something Martin, like Robert Jordan, is incapable of doing. Goodkind is under the disadvantage of having published eight books with which to annoy readers, as opposed to Martin's three (in this series).
Don't make me laugh.
For starters, to get things straight: I am both a huge Erikson and Martin fan, though for different reasons and in different ways. Furthermore I am not part of the hallelujah-Jordan movement, nor am I off the opinion that his work is garbage.
George R.R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series, of which the Game of Thrones is the first of a projected seven volumes (the fourth of which is due to be published in mid-2004),
Heh, sadly, no AFFC as of yet, spring next year if we're lucky.
>>is the most overrated fantasy series of the day. The poor writing and the lack of likeable or believable characters combine to create an unworkable mess.>>
Yep, it is important to start a review with a catchy phrase, leaving no doubt whatsoever about the direction of the following review and the lack of objectivity.
Martin's show-biz mind comes up with numerous ludicrous moments. His "heroes" are impossible to take seriously because they keep doing impossibly dumb things such as putting themselves and their families into the hands of their enemies. His "villains" are impossible to take seriously because they are incapable of successfully assassinating a middle aged woman, or, for that matter, a young child.
Hugely taken out of context. I would really like to know how the reviewer fabricated this piece of stunning 'evidence'.
(The fact that Martin's characters are generally trying to commit such deeds makes for extremely unpleasant as well as frustrating reading).
It is a wonder the man made it to the last page.
The scare quotes two paragraphs above indicate the moral ambiguity of Martin's universe. He does not really believe in heroism or villainy, which makes for an extremely blah story. Granted that two-shaded, black or white storytelling is _almost_ as mindless as writing gets, Martin still does not improve on this. He actually falls short of even that low standard. His one shade of gray in the middle for everybody is even more mindless. It also creates a story that is inherently uninteresting - why should the reader care who "wins" when one character is as good/bad as another?
Because Martins characters are grey (=human)in general means that they are less interesting? The reviewer would prefer a story in which shiny goodlooking heroes enter the stage to run through shifty-eyed, evil cackling villains?
Like horror movie protagonists, Martin's characters are often defenestrated, throat-slashed, thrown into the river, or set on fire - yet they just keep coming. The extremely graphic violence would be less unbearable if it weren't all so ineffective.
Violence? A lot? Yes, that is true. The world of Westeros is basically set in the Middle Ages. Not one of the most peaceful eras.
Extremely graphic? Well, no idea, one persons definition of extremely graphic does not equal everyones opinion. Since I have never seen nor heard about an age ban....
The motivations and actions of the characters are completely unbelievable. How much familial loyalty would a real man have left if his father had the young man's girlfriend raped by an entire company of soldiers (including the young man's brother) because she was unworthy of their family?
Hmm, lets see. Here our reviewer aims at something essential in Martins books. As it turns out, the latters characters are wholly unbelievable. This is supported by an example of how family loyalty might be affected if X happened (see quote).
Woo woo! Here comes the clue train. Last stop is you! You are apparently of the opinion that the characterization is essentially wrong, fine. Backing up such an accusation by using an incorrectexample though.... Sorry, mister Reviewer, but am I to take you serious? Did you even read the books?
That Martin revels in such moments is bad enough. That his characters' responses to them are so flat goes far beyond the bounds of credibility. Fantasy setting or not, people are simply not like this. No author who understands human nature so little can have much of interest to say.
Yes, well, it turned out your one example to strengthen this claim, is an incorrect one.
Martin believes that he has single-handedly discovered a major flaw common to almost all other writers: that their major characters inevitably survive to the end (or close to the end) of the production. He does not understand that he is putting the cart before the horse, and so missing the point entirely. Of course other authors have "mortal" characters. However, other authors are simply intelligent enough to realize that the major characters of a work (or a real-life episode) are generally to be found among those who are alive for a significant part of it, and to construct their storytelling accordingly. By repeatedly focusing on characters who shortly thereafter meet their demises, Martin succeeds only in punishing his readers with a series of unproductive false starts.
Erm...yeah...lets see...major characters huh? The first book had 8 POV's. One didn't make it to the end of that book. The second book had the 7 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. They all made it to the end of the book (though one of the new ones dissappeared from the stage for the time being). The third book started out with the 8 remaining POV's plus 2 new ones. 1 of them didn't make it to the end of the book. So at the end of book 3, after a couple of thousand pages, 6 POV's from the first book are still around, 2 didn't make it and a total of 9 POV's is alive and kicking as we speak. At least two more POV's will be joining the feast in the next book.
Martin's writing is similar in many ways to that of another very flawed writer, one whose many faults are more widely recognized: Terry Goodkind. Martin shares Goodkind's penchant for violence and sex, though Martin's versions are even more graphic and unappealing (he does, fortunately, lack Goodkind's particular brand of sappy smarminess). Nevertheless, the comparison ultimately favors Goodkind because he can at least wrap a story up, something Martin, like Robert Jordan, is incapable of doing. Goodkind is under the disadvantage of having published eight books with which to annoy readers, as opposed to Martin's three (in this series).
Don't make me laugh.
#94
Mort
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- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 193
- Joined: 23-January 03
Posted 03 May 2004 - 05:04 PM
Mith -
Tolkien had writings and bits and pieces of all ME from as far back as pre-WWI didn't he? I know he did write some elements of Silmarillion during WWI. As to the LOTR - it grew out of the fact that no-one was willing to give a go ahead for him to write an publish his Elvish Language works. In many ways LoTR was a way of getting some of his writings on Elvish out to the real world (This comes from the foreword to LOTR, FOTR)
To all - I don't think we are argunig over the fact JRRT took a while to write LOTR (by memory he attributes about 8 - 10 years in the foreword) but rather the not-so-subt;le difference between the two.
To wit:
JRRT took a completed manuscript to a publisher; GRRM did not.
That is perhaps more worthy of debate than who took longer to write a novel (which is all sorts of bad reverse snobbery). And it more a comment on today's culture than on either author.
Tolkien had writings and bits and pieces of all ME from as far back as pre-WWI didn't he? I know he did write some elements of Silmarillion during WWI. As to the LOTR - it grew out of the fact that no-one was willing to give a go ahead for him to write an publish his Elvish Language works. In many ways LoTR was a way of getting some of his writings on Elvish out to the real world (This comes from the foreword to LOTR, FOTR)
To all - I don't think we are argunig over the fact JRRT took a while to write LOTR (by memory he attributes about 8 - 10 years in the foreword) but rather the not-so-subt;le difference between the two.
To wit:
JRRT took a completed manuscript to a publisher; GRRM did not.
That is perhaps more worthy of debate than who took longer to write a novel (which is all sorts of bad reverse snobbery). And it more a comment on today's culture than on either author.
#95 Guest_Reave the Just_*
Posted 03 December 2004 - 03:06 AM
DD - good day to you, old sparring partner .
And no, don't you dare use that quote for my beloved Donaldson
.And no, don't you dare use that quote for my beloved Donaldson
#96 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 10 June 2004 - 08:19 AM
Hmm, been a while since I was in here. Has Martin updated his webpage with his latest excuse yet or has that been delayed half a year as well?
#97 Guest__*
Posted 26 January 2005 - 07:57 PM
We so need an official malazan sarcasm font. RIGHT NOW.
#98 Guest_Mithfânion_*
Posted 21 January 2005 - 03:55 PM
Good to see that he's getting close. I expect him to be finished in April. The book will be about 900-1,000 pages in final form, since he's likely to end up with about 1,500 manuscript pages (Storm of Swords was about that length as well). In short, a truly huge book.
#99 Guest_Drake Labatt_*
Posted 01 May 2004 - 02:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mithfânion:
You are aware of the fact that, entirely unlike George RR Martin, who is a full-time writer, JRR Tolkien was an English professor, which was also a full-time job?
Yessiree, JRRT sure fit the bill when it comes to the dictionary definition of old-school British prude.
quote:
I can only assume that you're not aware of the fact that he wrote the LoTR, the Hobbit and much of the Silmarillion in his spare time, otherwise you would never have made the comparison.
If you're asking me to compare the hours JRRT spent on LotR material vs. the hours GRRM is spending on ASoIaF material, I can't answer that question.
I don't know what JRRT's workload was like. I don't know if anyone could answer that. Certainly it varied from semester to semester to sabattical to vacation to exams to... etc.
I know for certain that Middle Earth was his passion and that he worked very hard on it for years.
What if the man-hours per written word are less for JRRT vs. GRRM? So what? How much less does it have to be to be a significant fact? I think that's what you're getting at, nes pa?
I don't know what to call that - an author productivity rating? But how would you normalize that so you could compare apples to apples?
My point is that these large, complex epics take a long time, and rather that pull a Terry Goodkind and release books containing hundreds of pages of filler, GRRM is putting in the effort to make it a quality release.
As hard as it is to imagine, I'm willing to bet that people would bitch and complain even more if GRRM caved and went the route of Goodkind and Jordan - putting out quantity at the expense of quality.
quote:
Which doesn't even take into account that, posthumously, thirteen more books filled with writings of his world were published.
(Shrug) So? How many Tupac albums have been released since he was gunned down in Vegas? Hell, there's even been a movie!!!
#100 Guest_Rallick Nom_*
Posted 02 May 2004 - 08:13 AM
quote:
Here's my point then, made as clearly as I can articulate it - both men wrote stuff. Both men spent time doing other things (it doesn't really matter what those other things are).
Regardless of who has/had/will have(?) more discipline as an author, it took JRRT a /long/ time to finish LotR. Similarly, it's going to take GRRM a /long/ time to finish his stuff. Longer, it would unfortunately appear.
GRRM released AGoT in 1996, and it'd be fair to assume he'd been writing since maybe '94 and thinking about it for years earlier. So that's between 10-15 years, less of acutally working on the series. Wasn't Tolkien thinking about LotR for a hugely long time? Plus, think of the delay between The Hobbit and LotR, followed by the delay between LotR and his post-humous works, such as The Silmarillion and War of the Ring. The man was working on Middle Earth for like thirty years, maybe more!
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly you missed my point ( or in case you didn't miss it, you're simply trolling). In that case I'll feed you. I mentioned the fact that posthumously thirteen more books were published to show you what kind of output Tolkien had while he was writing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not fair to compare these two really. You said it yourself when you talked about ASOIAF having books released based on Martin's notes, and you made a good point. First, how many books? It could be(probably won't be, but could be) just as many. Secondly, page for page Martin has released way more ASOIAF stuff than Tolkien did when he was alive(each book is as long as LOTR or much longer, plus a pair of good sized novellas and a comic series). So you can't compare the workload fairly.
quote:
Sadly, you missed mine. Let me throw some names at you:
- Tupac Shakur
- Gene Roddenberry
- JRRT
- Jimi Hendrix
- John Lennon
- Elvis Presley
- Frank Herbert
- Issac Asimov
- L. Ron Hubbard
All of the above are dead. All the above completed significant works of creativity. All of the above achieved a lot of success in their chosen field. All of the above were under the gun (poor Tupac) for deadlines and such, and all of the above faced certain distractions. In some cases (Elvis, Jimi) those distractions took on a life of their own!
L. Ron Hubbard? Come on man, other than Scientology which really wasn't related to his literary output(which I really dislike) he didn't accomplish ****e. Otherwise, good point.
Anyway, shouldn't we all just agree on this: we all seem to like the books, and he's working on the next one. There's no reason to think it won't be awesome, and attacking the man's character because he doesn't write at the same pace as King, Stackpole, Bradbury, or even Erikson is a little ridiculous.
