[worry]

Yah, that's my impression. The First Shore has nothing to do with the Vitr IMO, since the Vitr probably isn't connected to any of the Kuralds geographically. Also I'm not really sure if I like the idea of the Vitr at all, on first impression. Anyway, KG does have that giant river, which no doubt leads to a sea of some sort, so the world has plenty of water of its own.

[Jussi]

New blurb:

Quote

Steven Erikson returns to the Malazan world with the first book in a dark and revelatory new epic fantasy that tells the tragic story of the ruin of a realm...

Here is the story of the early years of Anomander Rake, and his brothers Andarist and Silchas Ruin.

It is a tale that begins within the Age of Darkness and the Birth of Light and involves the forging of a sword unlike any other, and tells of the tragedy that was the collapse of the realm of the Tiste Andii.

It is a tale of bitter family rivalries, of jealousies and betrayals, of wild magic and unfettered power, of death and terrifying destruction.

It is the story of how the goddess of the Tiste, Mother Dark, abandoned her children and turned her back on her people. It is the story of a devastating civil war that tore a world apart...

http://www.amazon.co...32873699&sr=1-1

[tiam]

worrywort, on 21 March 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Yah, that's my impression. The First Shore has nothing to do with the Vitr IMO, since the Vitr probably isn't connected to any of the Kuralds geographically. Also I'm not really sure if I like the idea of the Vitr at all, on first impression. Anyway, KG does have that giant river, which no doubt leads to a sea of some sort, so the world has plenty of water of its own.

I will say the only access to the Vitr has been through the Shadow realm, a fragment of KE and there were TL there, who presumably used a gate from KT. I get what your saying but to call geography on it isnt right IMO ofc.

[worry]

You are right, and I definitely shouldn't have stated it so absolutely...that thought did occur to me but then I forgot to go back and edit what I said. Obviously if KG and KT border each other, and a bunch of warrens border KE and even the lower shadow realm(s) (for instance walking from the Jaghut underworld to the refugium), then there's some geographic overlap to the warrens. I don't think any of these places are planets/globes or whatever, but they seem all stuck together roughly like a rubber band ball (with gaps for chaos).

Suffice to say I don't think the Vitr and the First Shore are different parts of the same thing, but I agree I should have stopped there cuz that geography thing I said is unfounded.

[Leanoric]

Vatha Urusander is Ruthan Gudd. You know it makes sense.

Possibly.

You heard it here first.

I mean, he clearly knew Draconus, thought he could put up a fight against him. This Vatha character sounds at least plausible.

[waylander001]

Yeah don't think the vitr will have anything to do with this trilogy either. I got the impression from ice's last book that the vitr has got more to do with the storyline/arc involving the builders. Isn't it one of those creatures we see somewhere in and around that area in OST? I've only read it once so could be mistaken.

[tiam]

The entire concept of the Vitr is somewhat contradictory to the concept of the First Shore.

We know in OST that the builder from TTH maintains the Vitr and claims some creatures came from it. It is essentially a form of primordial ooze that spawned the EG or whoever. And this also explains the rival factions and the 'who came first' question that has been kicking around for a while, namely where did Draconus come from if MD was the First creator and created the Andii.

It seems to me atleast that the Vitr represents the primordial ooze of Wu, instigating all Wu based life such as the EG, the Thel Akai and others. Whether the EG shaped these races is perfectly possible and plausible given what we know but not certain. For example Kily has some link to either the TTT the FA or both, OE birthed the Eresal yet shes crazier than a shit house rat. It may have been less deliberate than the Feists Valheru manipulation of weaker peoples but similar in influence.

In any case the Vitr seems like the very base of creation but did it create MD? These are questions that likely wont be answered in FOD but if the Andii came first and were the first creatures of a goddess then how is there an ancient entity and were did he come from?

I am really looking forward to this book and hope it isnt riddled with inconsistencies like OST.

Edit- the above statement is poorly worded Ill go over it again tomorrow in more detail but im falling asleep

This post has been edited by Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam: 02 April 2012 - 10:37 PM

[worry]

I don't think the Builder and the Maker (who is Azathanai & distinctly yellow) are the same creature or even of the same origin. Unless the Azathanai are just a few varied individuals, who are the Elders of all Elders. I kinda got that impression with Builder, but not with Maker (also I'm not even sure if Maker is just the name I made up for him or if it's from the book). At no moment throughout the entire Vitr section of OST are the Azath even mentioned or hinted at. To me, it came totally out of nowhere and I don't really like the whole concept (especially because it's yet another beach). But if MD created the universe, and then created some Elders who basically were behind the scenes of making the universe function/shaping chaos/whatever, and then created even more Elders that were elementals who became shapers and gods in the mortal world, and then created the Tiste Andii who became a semi-mortal civilization, who eventually found a shore which they named the First Shore, where KG borders KT...where another basic elemental (FL) has children of his own. I dunno, it could make a kind of mythological sense. Or it might not have to make sense, since gods are inherently insane.

So anyway, yah, all the rest of what you said is all up in the air and I'm excited to learn what there is to learn.

[tiam]

Id say it was given the child like nature of him and the fact the only time we see him incredibly angry is when he talks about the Jaghut and their 'meddling ways'. I think Nimander calls him Maker.

I also didnt like the concept as it is another shore with primordial ooze no matter how you dress it up. Another completely new base element of exitence that now has to be shoehorned in.

[Rupert]

When Kiska meets the QoD i think someone states that the rent opens on chaos so i always pictured the Vitr as being a manifestation of chaos,both as energy and dissolution.As for the theme of creation it may be that MD represents darkness as some kind of space when things that come from the vitr can exist in a more ordered and meaningful way.

Another place that seems to have a similar importance is the spar of the andii and it would be nice to compare it to the first shore although i don't remember where the spar appears in the books.

The mention of the Vitr as a sea of light could hint at a relationship between the 2 elements or maybe energy can be at times a secondary attribute of chaos the same way extreme cold is sometimes associated with Kurald Galain.

[worry]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 03 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Id say it was given the child like nature of him and the fact the only time we see him incredibly angry is when he talks about the Jaghut and their 'meddling ways'. I think Nimander calls him Maker.

That's an interesting connection I just didn't make. I mean Builder's reaction to Jaghuts definitely stood out, but my intuition just didn't move that way for some reason. Pretty awesome if there's a relationship.

I've been thinking about Warrens and their shapes recently, and I think perhaps all warrens, regardless of age/size/aspect, are essentially pocket warrens....some just happen to be vast, some happen to be big enough to fit a single dragon, whatever. I can't think of them as globes (as if warren traveling was planet hopping, or even alternate dimensions directly mappable to the mortal world...and that includes even the Imperial Warren). And I'll think we'll find out when we get to the destruction of Emurlahn.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 10 April 2012 - 04:10 AM

[tiam]

Im sure there is other stuff that I cant remember that suggests that Maker has been away for a long time. I think the smaller demons say that dont want Maker to go away again or something like that but yeh it was my initial thought, though ofc could be way off.

[Siergiej]

Quote

Vatha Urusander is Ruthan Gudd. You know it makes sense.

Possibly.

You heard it here first.

I mean, he clearly knew Draconus, thought he could put up a fight against him. This Vatha character sounds at least plausible.

That would be great. Because it would probably mean, that we will see Delat in his pre-Quick Ben form. Yay!

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

Vatha Urusander is Quick Ben!

[Vaddon Ra]

Defiance, on 16 March 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

Awesome, although I hate the part about it appealing to fans of GRRM. That's just put there because GRRM has become so commercialized. I'm sure publishers all around the world are trying to find ways to fit in, "It's like GRRM!" to fantasy books in an effort to get more people to buy them.

Not to say I don't like GRRM. I just hate how commercialized his series is now.

Anyway, as I said, awesome synopsis. Can't wait.

like grrm??? bollocks, nothing SE does is like grrm...for a start it comes out on time (yeah, *bitchslap*) it has actual humour in it, and lord forbid grrm should ever stir things up with a bit of that eh, EH!
The publishers are clearly just saying that because now Grrm has his money bank deal with HBO people round the world are suddenly realising that dark fantasy, true fantasy, not this twilight, sexy vampire shite, is actually damned worth their time. Thus, for any publisher wishing a comparison they go..."hmm, grrm writes what can be considered 'epic' fantasy and it's maddeningly popular, we shoudl tell people that SE is like that to maximise sales"

It wont work, it might bolster things a little, but grrm leads his readers along a little more gently than SE....besides who in their right minds would read a follow up trilogy to a 10 book epic first....that would make so little sense they'd read half a chapter and go, 'wtf is a kurald gallain??? what is a mother dark, who is anomander???' and you know if you dont know any of that you shouldn't be reading it...so dont fret...like GRRM is a sales pitch, its like saying for fans of harry potter.....its fantasy and it sells...GO GO MONEY.

[Vaddon Ra]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 16 March 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Doesnt tie in with the sea and also are apparently OE children. We know the Empire falls soonn though as Grub is the First Sword of the Late Empire

ah but historically ealry empire middle empire and late empire could technically be over several centuries right...plus grub isn't exactly natural eithe rright...he could live very very long as a high mage, note that tattersail lived for like 200 years before her soul shifting antics. Plus late empire doesnt mean end of the empire while he's first sword.

[worry]

On the other hand, Grub may age supernaturally fast given his nature, so the end could be even sooner than we think. Like years, rather than a decade or two.

[tiam]

Vaddon Ra, on 19 June 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 16 March 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Doesnt tie in with the sea and also are apparently OE children. We know the Empire falls soonn though as Grub is the First Sword of the Late Empire

ah but historically ealry empire middle empire and late empire could technically be over several centuries right...plus grub isn't exactly natural eithe rright...he could live very very long as a high mage, note that tattersail lived for like 200 years before her soul shifting antics. Plus late empire doesnt mean end of the empire while he's first sword.

Very true but we still have to be cautious. The obvious parallel to make here is with the Later Roman Empire period lasting around 200 years. However that was a political institution that had already extended it domination for centuries whereas the Malazan Empire, at its highest territorial extent, was only around 100 years after its initial creation.

So the Later Empire Period could even be a space of 25-50 years or as little as a 10 year decline. So with the Seven Cities campaign non-existent, the Genabackan campaign still in a stage of stagnation (in OST atleast), the Korel campaign hardly a roaring success according to Topper and the centre of the Empire still suffering the ravages of a previous large scale insurrection with a change to a new untested leader that was not part of the original family, its not too difficult to imagine it coming soon within the Malazan novels.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

that first blurb is poor - one statement is outright false. The second blurb seems to be encompassing the whole trilogy.

Lots of surpises in this book, will turn a few major theories on their respective heads.

This post has been edited by Bre'nigan: 20 June 2012 - 11:45 AM

[Aptorian]

Bre, on 20 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

that first blurb is poor - one statement is outright false. The second blurb seems to be encompassing the whole trilogy.

Lots of surpises in this book, will turn a few major theories on their respective heads.

Which part of the blurb is false? Keep in mind that our sources on the Elder ages, especially the Tiste races, are notoriously unreliable and biased.