[tiam]

Doesnt tie in with the sea and also are apparently OE children. We know the Empire falls soonn though as Grub is the First Sword of the Late Empire

[waylander001]

Yeah the empire is definitely on it's knees by looks of things, hence the series title Malazan Book of the Fallen and as above states the other references to the "late empire period" in the last book. In fact maybe it will be Karsa Orlong and his army that finally takes it's head (and aybe we'll see it's actual death-throes in his Toblakai trilogy) - he does so despise the whole idea of civilisation afterall.

Back on theme - the Tiste tilogy looks even more awesome after this small insight. Bring on the Purakes in all their glory! The "ancient power" from the seas has got to be connected to the shores of light that the Shake protect surely (the Liosan in other words)????

This post has been edited by waylander001: 17 March 2012 - 12:37 AM

[MillionSpots]

Ooh, I am excited!
I'm pretty sure Vatha Urusander was not mentioned in MBotF, so yay for a new (old) character.

Purake Hold =/= Hold of Darkness?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Pretty sure Purake Hold is just like a clan name for certain Andii...all we've heard about as a real city is Kharkanas but surely there used to be a thriving civilization in Kurald Galain that would have required separate clans and cities if not nations and races.


I'm intrigued at what they mean by this realm contributing to the fall of the Malazan Empire. I wonder if throughout this trilogy Erikson works his way back to present day and the Andii, or something from their realm, end up destroying Unta or Malaz.


As a sidenote I wonder if instead of having prologues that take places hundreds of thousands of years before the book, he'll have epilogues that have us glimpse events currently happening to characters we know from the present Malazan series, to show us how far reaching the consequences of certain events in this series really are.

[tiam]

waylander001, on 17 March 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

Yeah the empire is definitely on it's knees by looks of things, hence the series title Malazan Book of the Fallen and as above states the other references to the "late empire period" in the last book. In fact maybe it will be Karsa Orlong and his army that finally takes it's head (and aybe we'll see it's actual death-throes in his Toblakai trilogy) - he does so despise the whole idea of civilisation afterall.

Back on theme - the Tiste tilogy looks even more awesome after this small insight. Bring on the Purakes in all their glory! The "ancient power" from the seas has got to be connected to the shores of light that the Shake protect surely (the Liosan in other words)????

Im unsure how the Empire is on its knees based on the title of series and the late empire reference in the last book. The late empire period is a reference in HOC chapter opener that refers to Grub as the First Sword of the late empire period suggesting the Empire falls fairly soon after Grubs death or near the end of his life. The title doesnt suggest that the Empire is falling but simply references a list of the Malazan Fallen i.e. casualties.

Im unsure if the Shore of light can be considered ancient at this point as we have no idea of FL presence. It most likely represents the Vitr

[Salt-Man Z]

The second book is (at least tentatively) named Fall of Light, so I wouldn't think the Liosan would play much part in this book, at least 'til near the very end.

edit - What the heck, was I drunk when I posted this? Numerous typos corrected.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 19 March 2012 - 04:40 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Salt-Man Z, on 18 March 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

The second book is (at least tentatively) name Fall of Light, so would think the Liosan would play much part in this book, at least 'til near the very end.

I think we are all just throwing stuff at the wall pretty haphazardly.

The Emurlahn were known as sea-fairers of renown at one point in Wu, and have the wood that creates fantastic ships. So a less metaphorical ancient enemy?

[tiam]

H.D., on 18 March 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 18 March 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

The second book is (at least tentatively) name Fall of Light, so would think the Liosan would play much part in this book, at least 'til near the very end.

I think we are all just throwing stuff at the wall pretty haphazardly.

The Emurlahn were known as sea-fairers of renown at one point in Wu, and have the wood that creates fantastic ships. So a less metaphorical ancient enemy?

Does that fit though? I mean the only Edur presence we hear about entering Wu is the usual Letherii conquering Edur. Now presumably some of those after a while took to fleets to war with both the TTT and the Barghast to make MOI canonical. In a way this does fit with how the Edur ended up in 7c, though there is of course a strong link between the Edur/KE and the HFE. Now while there has been little reference to the link between the HFE and KE since HOC it is still probably important.

Id say it has to mean the Vitr sea rather than some sea borne Edur raiders especially when it sounds like the second book covers the entrance of light

[HoosierDaddy]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 18 March 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

H.D., on 18 March 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 18 March 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

The second book is (at least tentatively) name Fall of Light, so would think the Liosan would play much part in this book, at least 'til near the very end.

I think we are all just throwing stuff at the wall pretty haphazardly.

The Emurlahn were known as sea-fairers of renown at one point in Wu, and have the wood that creates fantastic ships. So a less metaphorical ancient enemy?

Does that fit though? I mean the only Edur presence we hear about entering Wu is the usual Letherii conquering Edur. Now presumably some of those after a while took to fleets to war with both the TTT and the Barghast to make MOI canonical. In a way this does fit with how the Edur ended up in 7c, though there is of course a strong link between the Edur/KE and the HFE. Now while there has been little reference to the link between the HFE and KE since HOC it is still probably important.

Id say it has to mean the Vitr sea rather than some sea borne Edur raiders especially when it sounds like the second book covers the entrance of light

It's mostly based on the Edur having fantastic ships made from blackwood and the enmity of life and shadow. But, I'm just throwing darts.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

This is also throwing darts, but I kind of doubt the Andii even know about the Edur yet at the start of this book (if the Edur even exist yet). I think we were shown in TtH and onwards that the goings-on of Kharkanas and Kurald Galain were more than complicated enough to have their own storyline. And where it mentions ancient enemies I think that has something to do with dragons. They represent chaos which is the most ancient enemy of Mother Dark. And Draconus coming to visit from "the faraway Dracon Hold" could be good set up for that.

[tiam]

If the Fall of Light begins or ends with the Fall of Light onto Dark itself then we might not see any Edur for a while. We now know they are the Andii that held back the Light and became corrupted/adapted to its influence so they are linked to Light. I honestly think well see a book set solely in Night with each book detailing each race, with threads in between ofc.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam, on 18 March 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

If the Fall of Light begins or ends with the Fall of Light onto Dark itself then we might not see any Edur for a while. We now know they are the Andii that held back the Light and became corrupted/adapted to its influence so they are linked to Light.

Where did we find this out? Refresh me

[worry]

I still don't fully understand the Tiste Edur vs. Shake re: Shadow stuff. =(

[tiam]

AFAIK the Shake were the original Andii who fought Light at the barrier, the same battle they took up in TCG. They were fundamentally changed by their constant exposure to an element so intrinsically opposite to them and became the Edur. It isnt explained fully how such a transformation took place and this is likely what will be covered in the prequels.

[worry]

Thank you. I got the impression during reading that the Shake were truly of "Shadow" somehow while the Tiste Edur were "pretenders" to the aspect/Warren/Throne/etc. And I know breeding with humans (and being occasionally awash with KCCM genetic material) had changed the Shake from what they once were, but I was never certain they were of the same stock as the TE. Like the Shake came to Shadow naturally, on the shore, like you described, and the TE came to shadow in a more corrupted roundabout way, perhaps by interbreeding between TA and TL. Don't know what any of this means for Kurald Emurlahn. And I'm not quite sure what percentage of this stuff is textual info, what is patchwork and educated guesswork, and what's raw hypothesis.All that is to say, I'm really excited for this trilogy.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 19 March 2012 - 07:05 AM

[Studlock]

I don't think that's quite right, because we known the TE had royal families and the like whereas the Shake seemed to be bow to the TA (not to mention and entire different realm of rule between the to). Though it would make sense that the TE would follow out Ruin if they were the original Shake. I just didn't see the text as clear cut as that I guess.

[tiam]

Studlock, on 19 March 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't think that's quite right, because we known the TE had royal families and the like whereas the Shake seemed to be bow to the TA (not to mention and entire different realm of rule between the to). Though it would make sense that the TE would follow out Ruin if they were the original Shake. I just didn't see the text as clear cut as that I guess.

Its a matter of perspective. The explanation above is incredibly simplified but more or less what the text states and implies. We have no idea of the time scale but id say its a fair while.

Ive always imagined it like this. The Shake Andii were once incredibly numerous, protecting Light from Dark, as normal Andiian warriors. Its possible that there skin started to lighten for the reasons ive stated above. They become disjointed outsiders, different from those black skinned civilians in Kharkanas and marked by there skin. They represent an elite force, holding the gate against light for the good of the Andii peoples yet are looked down on by 'pure' Andiians who have never seen the Lightfall. Over the centuries/millenia a sort of camp appears around the breach. Soldiers families in the form of camp followers are also, through proximity to light/genetic passing on from parents who have been transformed by the light, become slowly more and more Edur-like to the point they represent a slightly different culture, one of hardship and war.

At first this doesnt represent a problem of racial inequality. The Andii, while somewhat suspicious of there light skinned comrades, treat them as Andii still and still admire them for the sacrifice they make for the good of Kharkanas. Kind of like how civilians admire soldiers in any culture but dont want them around. As time goes on it may be that the camp around the breach becomes a self sustaining recruiting ground, with only moderate support from the Kharkanas Andii. The growing number of Edur, n elite force through constant warfare, have their own nobility, either war heroes from the Breach, or Andii nobility who have been changed by their battle with the Light. As time goes on these families grow into nobility proper and the camp grows into almost a separate entity with an identity, an identity of hardship, constant battles and war. These sare the soldiers who have protected the Andii at great cost at first but have grown, both culturally and by population, into a seperate race. I imagine this wasnt immediate. There was no initial label of children of shadow, it may have even come about as a colloquial term for themselves.

Eventually the Liosan mount an invasion of epic proportions, a long planned final breach into KG. The light skinned Andii request more reinforcements from the their Kharkanas base but are refused, either through the bitterness at the rising power of the Edur nobles or because Kharkanas is embroiled in its own civil war, and left to fend for themselves. They barely hold at great cost and the either the nobility or more likely a war hero from the recent attacks proclaims that they have nothing in common with their Kharkanas cousins. They no longer resemble them physically and are mix of both races. This hero then faces the nobility, who council peace and mediation between the camp at lightfall and kharkanas in an attempt to keep the peace,retain there position and through resentment of the new heroes dangerous position.The hero then kills the nobility of the camp, drinks the blood of Tiam and leads his people away from the breach, as they no longer have any desire to protect Kharkanas, after a recent betrayal. In an attempt to ascend to another world the hero who leads his people makes an alliance with a fleeing Andiian prince, who for whatever reason, has become disillusioned with Kharkanas and they go on to breach into Wu.

At some point during the war they become seperate and in a new effort to fight the Liosan at the breach, delve into new sorcery. As a result the very essence of sorcery is twisted by its proximity to light, creating a new power source for these these lightskinned Andii but it eventually becomes a symbol of independence for them

Now that is ofc utter bollocks but I think perfectly plausible for whats gonna happen .

Ive always imagined it this way since I read about the Shake for some reason.

This post has been edited by Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-tiam: 19 March 2012 - 04:31 PM

[Rupert]

I thought that there was the possibility of a period of peace between light and dark,a marriage of a sort that may have been celebrated with politically or ritually motivated unions between certain Andii and Liosan like nobles or priests of both parts,or simply allowed unions to happen.

The theory of the taint of light is interesting as i think Endest Silann mentions something about his eyes being tainted.

The real question thes is how did the shadow realm come to be.

This post has been edited by Rupert: 20 March 2012 - 03:57 AM

[Studlock]

Yeah the shadow realm is the biggest reason I don't think Shake=Edur. I'm going to have to read the last three books again but I pretty sure the Shore of Light (or whatever it was called) is in Darkness whereas the Shadow Realm is completely different,

[Salt-Man Z]

I thought the First Shore was where Light meets Dark (Galain meets Thyrllan/Liosan).