[Liosan]

It was the year 1500. As the great eastern armies warred for dominance, Imperial influence waned in Kyoto. The new Emperor, Go-Kashiwabara, was under an assault of his own as sycophants of the regional warlords fought new kind of battle. Cavalry rush became slander. The dawn ambush became a forged letter of treason. Deceit, intrigue, bribery and corruption. Such were the final days of the Ashikaga shogunate, the candles of a chandelier blowing out one by one under the gales of a dozen winds, striking from all sides...

[Tellan]

Rashan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

Don't think of us as a team. He's defending me, and it makes me uncomfortable.

Regardless, I thank you for your faith.

Goodnight, my Emperor, I will return with the rise of the sun.

Heh, whatever.

I'm "defending" you in that I wasn't hot on the case to start with, and later in I thinking the person pushing you has done it in a manner more scummy than what you did.

Can't attack anyone without being accused of defending another.

[Silanah]

Liosan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

It was the year 1500. As the great eastern armies warred for dominance, Imperial influence waned in Kyoto. The new Emperor, Go-Kashiwabara, was under an assault of his own as sycophants of the regional warlords fought new kind of battle. Cavalry rush became slander. The dawn ambush became a forged letter of treason. Deceit, intrigue, bribery and corruption. Such were the final days of the Ashikaga shogunate, the candles of a chandelier blowing out one by one under the gales of a dozen winds, striking from all sides...

Yeah, ummm, well, OK, sure, not sure where that came from or why you could post that and not a simple checking in statement, but Konichiwa minister

[Liosan]

Following his ceremony of ascension, an auspicious day was selected shortly after the spring equinox and the newly crowned Emperor, choosing as his reign title the temple name "Silanah", held his first assembly of Ministers and officials:

Silanah, on 13 March 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Muahahahahahahahahahahaha. First and Muahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The assembled Ministers all bowed in congratulations to their new lord:

Barghast, on 13 March 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

Oh, Sil is the Emperor.



*bows*

D, on 13 March 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Hail! O Gracious Steve! *grovels*

Serc, on 13 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'm here

Hail the Emperor

(since when is Steve a Japanese name?)

(Save for the Chief Admiral of the Imperial Navy, who by tradition was granted exemption from bowing due to a terrible drowning accident 200 years prior:)

Karosis, on 13 March 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Silanah, on 13 March 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Bow deeper!

Don't do that, the boat will sink! /nautical joke

[Atrahal]

Tellan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

This is his case on Rashan. It's nothing I would personally call speculation (as I said at the time) because it isn't trying to spark any kind of role discussion, just RPing off the setting.

Atrahal, on 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Hail the Anti-Steve!!!!


Now:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

As someone in the newb game said - "He who smelt it, dealt it."


Vote Rashan

The way I saw it was that it was not RP, but actual speculation with a thin RP disguise, which just made it all the more suspicious to me.

[Here I cut some of the posts of mine you selected without any real explanation, apart from saying 'RP/Spam'. Yeah. So?]

I really don't like this post. I don't like the shit he asks Ruse because it's just playing into being a "helpful townie", and contributing nothing while looking like content.

Agrees with another persons suspicions without going into depth. This is exactly the kind of thing he finds so scummy in Okaros later.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Omtose, on 13 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I don't have much time to play until Friday. Having read up, the Rashan case does have merit, well as much merrit as any day one case.

Koralain has also pinged my radar with his post saying he was ready to "whore himself out" (post #51)

I will be back in time for a vote. For now I will wait.

I think you mean post #42 (at least, that's what it says on my view), which is this:

Korvalain, on 13 March 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well I guess I could whore myself out to earn a few extra bucks. Earn me a nice new cushion to sit on to make all this artsy stuff to sell.

So Omtose, why does this ping your radar? What could it mean in your opinion? A minister who's looking to be recruited? I can see that later in the game when it might look like town won't win, and some townies (scoundrel players) might be looking to switch to what they perceive to be a winning side, but on day 1 I don't see it.

I actually quite like the Karosis case - it's exactly the kind of thing I'd normally vote on on day 1 if I hadn't already made my own thing

As you can see from my post, you are entirely wrong in your observation. How can a post which not only asks questions, but actually ventures ITS OWN OPINION/BELIEF on the matter contribute nothing? You're reaching, my friend.


Don't like this. He makes a (in my opinion) weak case against someone that they can't really say much to, then tries to draw them into reacting more. Considering how we tend to view "over-reaction", this is a dodgy move.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

:yawn:

I can already tell I'm going to be lynched today, unless someone does something crazy.

If you are scum, pathetic attempt. If you are town, then fight goddamn you! Remember you're part of a team and if you're lynched, it hurts the whole team and not just your lazy ass. Yes, even on day 1. I would prefer to think you're silly scum - you do want to earn my respect don't you?

Fuck, I can't believe I'm pursuing a case I myself made! How stupid of me! You're absolutely right, I should just completely forget I ever said anything. <-- This sentence is supposed to be in sarcasm italics

The only one who seems to be over-reacting to it is you, not Rashan, which is interesting in itself.


A stretch to criticize Okaros imo. Okaros comes on, and comments in fair detail on a case, even if some of the post is fairly well-covered ground (the stuff about day one). Sure he doesn't make his own case. That doesn't equal non contribution. Okaros' evaluation in considerably more in depth than some of the earlier "Hey, I agree that Rashan looks a bit scummy" stuff, which makes this criticism on him just seem OMGUS. Karosis goes on to decide this post is outright scummy.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Okaros, on 14 March 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Geez, it's no wonder people are turning up to check in and then leaving again. We're not even halfway through day one and already people are getting jumped on!

On top of that, between Karosis and Atrahal no one can win. If you defend yourself too much that is suspicious, but if you don't defend yourself at all you're also suspicious!

Day one cases are a crapshoot, and I don't blame Rashan for his resignation. It's pretty much impossible to against a day one case because anything you do or say will be micro-analysed. Sure, scum can slip up on day one as much as any other day, but it takes the context of the following days to find anything useful.

So with that, I am going to head off to work on my kickass Noh Dancing. I'll be back in time to vote. Try not to get your collective knickers twisted too much.

Translation: "I'll criticise other people's attempts to highlight things, but I won't bother to actually contribute anything myself. In fact, I'm not sure why I even posted on day 1. I'll vote for whoever is going to get lynched at the end of the day, because frankly I can't be bothered about giving a shit today."

I'll criticise who I feel like, thanks. Just as people are free to agree or disagree, and I in turn am free to agree or disagree with them. Wait, you've played this game before, right? And, by the way, a long paragraph does not equal more contribution. Just like posting loads of quotes, most with no or little comment, does not necessarily equal contribution.


This is why I don't like Atrahal.

It's not really for the Rashan case. I think the Rashan case is bollocks, but it's more than that. It's the fact that he's playing up his own contribution (see the Okaros post), stretching to contribute, and also had a suspicious following (look at the people jumping up after his initial post saying "Oh yeah, I thought that too", or Sorrit's little defenceof him). I really don't like him trying to force Rashan to "fight god damnit!" against a case where there's not really much he could say.

And I really don't like how he's trying to push his Rashan case by claiming all dissenting opinion is defense. I started by saying I didn't really agree with it. In my opinion, it is a weak case, because at the end of the day, he just seems to me to have been RPing off an element of the setting. Is that an unreasonable opinion for me to hold? Is it unbelievable that I don't think it really is a strong indicator of scum? It is defense only in so much as it is a reasonable disagreement. Were it a much stronger case then perhaps that disagreement would be notable, worth pushing on, but to me it seems ridiculous to call someone disagreeing with such a weak case defensive. Pushing a weak case by claiming someone is being defended after it gets pointed out how weak your case is, is simply poor play.

1) My 'fight' comment wasn't about him not arguing against the case, it was in response to that particular comment he made, which made it sound like he couldn't care less. As it is, Rashan has posted well since. 2) I will always play up my own contribution, because I am awesome. 3) People agreeing with me....maybe because they see some merit to it? 4) And you're right, it's not unbelievable that you simply disagree with the case. But you make it sound as if no one has made positive sounds about the case, which is untrue, and that I've somehow flung shit at whoever's disagreed. Fact is, you're the only one flailing around trying to make absolutely every one of my posts look scummy - poor play, in my opinion.

As I already said, you're free to believe what you want, just as I am. I'll back down if/when I'm contradicted by something irrefutable, or if something stronger comes up. But until that point....

[Barghast]

If Liosan decided to adopt the role of the Imperial Chronicler, his task will be long and arduous.

[Liosan]

Cognizant of the turbulent times, Emperor Silanah made no attempt to hide the horrid state of corruption in the court. Making a cleansing of the court his first priority of office, he charged his ministers with rooting out the influence of the warlords' factions upon the court.

The Ministers adapted to the charge quickly and some even expressed a strange openness of discourse about accepting bribes for personal gain:

Korvalain, on 13 March 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well I guess I could whore myself out to earn a few extra bucks. Earn me a nice new cushion to sit on to make all this artsy stuff to sell.

Other Ministers chose to immediately condemn the infamous Minister Fener for no other reason than that he had been involved in several previous, unrelated political scandals:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Well I'm bored. Shall we lynch someone, then?

Oh dear, Fener is in this game. Goodbye, old enemy.

Vote Fener

This approach was, of course, completely foolish as Fener's infamy assured that he would be watched carefully in the future while gazes could be cast elsewhere in the meantime.


A very interesting proposal was made by the Minister of the Interior, Atrahal, who proposed that the musings of Minister Rashan about the forms of corruption and lobbying taking place was indicative of Rashan's own corruption:

Atrahal, on 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Hail the Anti-Steve!!!!


Now:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

As someone in the newb game said - "He who smelt it, dealt it."


Vote Rashan

In truth, this claim could only hold ground if Rashan were among the newer Ministers to the court, as the aged old scholars were far too tight-lipped for such verbal plethora of their thoughts revealing their hidden roles. Glancing at the census of the assembled Ministers, however, it could be noted that there were several junior Ministers recently elevated from the public service, and so this argument was found to hold much potential merit.

[Mockra]

Ok caught up. Quite a lot of stuff for day 1.

I am not sure about the Rashan thing the initial case didnt' really strike me as much, but I found the way Tellan has seemed to defend it has made it scummier to me. If someone has a problem with something Rashan has said, then Rashan should explain himself which he did, quite well not sure why Tellan thought he should come along and stick his oar in as well.

And then when Rashan sorta gave in and said he might be lynched and was called out on it by someone, I didn't like how Tellan found that to be scummy and seemed to defend Rashan again.

If your inno and got 2 or 3 votes on day 1 and your giving up? I wanna see you fight as well to not be lynched. And Tellan seemed to find that people wanting Rashan to fight is odd? Why is it odd?

On the other hand Rashan himself I haven't found scummy nor would I normally think its a case worth voting on outside Tellan there.


Other thing I found vaguely unsettling was Korvalain and his vote on Fener which he claimed he was doing as he was following his glorious leaders lead. Which was wrong of course, and when called out on it he still continued to happily vote Fener for some other reason. Guess its only vote 2 or something on Fener so wasn't a big deal, however Korvalain had replied to Silanahs initial vote where he voted for Rashan previously and had commented he found Rashan to be suspicous or whatever so I guess he may have just forgotten all of that. . And it seems like such an outlandish slip its no way it was possible.
Still would like to hear from Korvalain anyway just to clear it up.

This post has taken me about an hour to write I hate playing from work.

[Tellan]

Rainbow time I guess.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Tellan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

This is his case on Rashan. It's nothing I would personally call speculation (as I said at the time) because it isn't trying to spark any kind of role discussion, just RPing off the setting.

Atrahal, on 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Hail the Anti-Steve!!!!


Now:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

As someone in the newb game said - "He who smelt it, dealt it."


Vote Rashan

The way I saw it was that it was not RP, but actual speculation with a thin RP disguise, which just made it all the more suspicious to me.

[Here I cut some of the posts of mine you selected without any real explanation, apart from saying 'RP/Spam'. Yeah. So?]

See, now we're getting into actual case discussion. Explain what you think he's speculating about, how it's speculation more than RP (I lean to RP because he's using just the basic premise outlined in the OP, and doesn't look to be trying to draw people into a discussion, which would be scummy imo).

I really don't like this post. I don't like the shit he asks Ruse because it's just playing into being a "helpful townie", and contributing nothing while looking like content.

Agrees with another persons suspicions without going into depth. This is exactly the kind of thing he finds so scummy in Okaros later.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Omtose, on 13 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I don't have much time to play until Friday. Having read up, the Rashan case does have merit, well as much merrit as any day one case.

Koralain has also pinged my radar with his post saying he was ready to "whore himself out" (post #51)

I will be back in time for a vote. For now I will wait.

I think you mean post #42 (at least, that's what it says on my view), which is this:

Korvalain, on 13 March 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well I guess I could whore myself out to earn a few extra bucks. Earn me a nice new cushion to sit on to make all this artsy stuff to sell.

So Omtose, why does this ping your radar? What could it mean in your opinion? A minister who's looking to be recruited? I can see that later in the game when it might look like town won't win, and some townies (scoundrel players) might be looking to switch to what they perceive to be a winning side, but on day 1 I don't see it.

I actually quite like the Karosis case - it's exactly the kind of thing I'd normally vote on on day 1 if I hadn't already made my own thing

As you can see from my post, you are entirely wrong in your observation. How can a post which not only asks questions, but actually ventures ITS OWN OPINION/BELIEF on the matter contribute nothing? You're reaching, my friend.

Asking vague questions is an easy way to look like contribution. Your opinion on the thing with Ruse really isn't content heavy. It assumes a viewpoint from him that is pretty unlikely in the first place and then disagrees with it. You don't really venture much of an opinion on Karosis either. Hey, I vaguely agree with this case for reasons I don't see why. In fact, it seems more like an excuse to hype your own contribution than any sort of engagement with his.

Don't like this. He makes a (in my opinion) weak case against someone that they can't really say much to, then tries to draw them into reacting more. Considering how we tend to view "over-reaction", this is a dodgy move.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

:yawn:

I can already tell I'm going to be lynched today, unless someone does something crazy.

If you are scum, pathetic attempt. If you are town, then fight goddamn you! Remember you're part of a team and if you're lynched, it hurts the whole team and not just your lazy ass. Yes, even on day 1. I would prefer to think you're silly scum - you do want to earn my respect don't you?

Fuck, I can't believe I'm pursuing a case I myself made! How stupid of me! You're absolutely right, I should just completely forget I ever said anything. <-- This sentence is supposed to be in sarcasm italics

The only one who seems to be over-reacting to it is you, not Rashan, which is interesting in itself.

What exactly was Rashan meant to say? He explained his side of things already. You were asking him to do what? Say it again but louder?

Also, I am attacking you, not defending him. My opinion on him is simple - I think the case is a bit lacking. Sadly, I also think the way you pushed it is scummy, leading me to call you on that. That is a reaction to your actions, not his. You'll note that initially there was no such reaction to the case, just a stating of my opinion. It is when you started acting in a manner I found scummy itself I got more involved.

A stretch to criticize Okaros imo. Okaros comes on, and comments in fair detail on a case, even if some of the post is fairly well-covered ground (the stuff about day one). Sure he doesn't make his own case. That doesn't equal non contribution. Okaros' evaluation in considerably more in depth than some of the earlier "Hey, I agree that Rashan looks a bit scummy" stuff, which makes this criticism on him just seem OMGUS. Karosis goes on to decide this post is outright scummy.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Okaros, on 14 March 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Geez, it's no wonder people are turning up to check in and then leaving again. We're not even halfway through day one and already people are getting jumped on!

On top of that, between Karosis and Atrahal no one can win. If you defend yourself too much that is suspicious, but if you don't defend yourself at all you're also suspicious!

Day one cases are a crapshoot, and I don't blame Rashan for his resignation. It's pretty much impossible to against a day one case because anything you do or say will be micro-analysed. Sure, scum can slip up on day one as much as any other day, but it takes the context of the following days to find anything useful.

So with that, I am going to head off to work on my kickass Noh Dancing. I'll be back in time to vote. Try not to get your collective knickers twisted too much.

Translation: "I'll criticise other people's attempts to highlight things, but I won't bother to actually contribute anything myself. In fact, I'm not sure why I even posted on day 1. I'll vote for whoever is going to get lynched at the end of the day, because frankly I can't be bothered about giving a shit today."

I'll criticise who I feel like, thanks. Just as people are free to agree or disagree, and I in turn am free to agree or disagree with them. Wait, you've played this game before, right? And, by the way, a long paragraph does not equal more contribution. Just like posting loads of quotes, most with no or little comment, does not necessarily equal contribution.

You do nothing here to actually discuss my comment here.

Your quote comment can be leveled at you just as easily as me.

This is why I don't like Atrahal.

It's not really for the Rashan case. I think the Rashan case is bollocks, but it's more than that. It's the fact that he's playing up his own contribution (see the Okaros post), stretching to contribute, and also had a suspicious following (look at the people jumping up after his initial post saying "Oh yeah, I thought that too", or Sorrit's little defenceof him). I really don't like him trying to force Rashan to "fight god damnit!" against a case where there's not really much he could say.

And I really don't like how he's trying to push his Rashan case by claiming all dissenting opinion is defense. I started by saying I didn't really agree with it. In my opinion, it is a weak case, because at the end of the day, he just seems to me to have been RPing off an element of the setting. Is that an unreasonable opinion for me to hold? Is it unbelievable that I don't think it really is a strong indicator of scum? It is defense only in so much as it is a reasonable disagreement. Were it a much stronger case then perhaps that disagreement would be notable, worth pushing on, but to me it seems ridiculous to call someone disagreeing with such a weak case defensive. Pushing a weak case by claiming someone is being defended after it gets pointed out how weak your case is, is simply poor play.

1) My 'fight' comment wasn't about him not arguing against the case, it was in response to that particular comment he made, which made it sound like he couldn't care less. As it is, Rashan has posted well since. 2) I will always play up my own contribution, because I am awesome. 3) People agreeing with me....maybe because they see some merit to it? 4) And you're right, it's not unbelievable that you simply disagree with the case. But you make it sound as if no one has made positive sounds about the case, which is untrue, and that I've somehow flung shit at whoever's disagreed. Fact is, you're the only one flailing around trying to make absolutely every one of my posts look scummy - poor play, in my opinion.

As I already said, you're free to believe what you want, just as I am. I'll back down if/when I'm contradicted by something irrefutable, or if something stronger comes up. But until that point....

1. Isn't that the same thing? He sounded resigned, you told him to fight more, he'd pretty much said as much as possible against your accusations. Having said that, I do agree that the level of resignation when so early and so few votes is strange.
2. ...
3. Yeah, but to someone who thinks the case is weak it looks a bit odd when a bunch of people jump on a weak case going "Yeah, I was totally thinking this". On a related note, do you not think it odd no one else mentioned it all considering that as soon as you posted it at least one person (Serc?) said he had already noticed that.
4. As for flinging shit at whoever's disagreed, you pretty much have. Posts accusing me and barghast of defending Rashan for not agreeing, criticism of Okaros for non contribution when he contributed a lot more than others who coincidentally happened to agree with you where he didn't...

[Silanah]

Rainbow time makes post look 3D

[Barghast]

Liosan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

Cognizant of the turbulent times, Emperor Silanah made no attempt to hide the horrid state of corruption in the court. Making a cleansing of the court his first priority of office, he charged his ministers with rooting out the influence of the warlords' factions upon the court.

The Ministers adapted to the charge quickly and some even expressed a strange openness of discourse about accepting bribes for personal gain:

Korvalain, on 13 March 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well I guess I could whore myself out to earn a few extra bucks. Earn me a nice new cushion to sit on to make all this artsy stuff to sell.

Other Ministers chose to immediately condemn the infamous Minister Fener for no other reason than that he had been involved in several previous, unrelated political scandals:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Well I'm bored. Shall we lynch someone, then?

Oh dear, Fener is in this game. Goodbye, old enemy.

Vote Fener

This approach was, of course, completely foolish as Fener's infamy assured that he would be watched carefully in the future while gazes could be cast elsewhere in the meantime.


A very interesting proposal was made by the Minister of the Interior, Atrahal, who proposed that the musings of Minister Rashan about the forms of corruption and lobbying taking place was indicative of Rashan's own corruption:

Atrahal, on 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Hail the Anti-Steve!!!!


Now:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

As someone in the newb game said - "He who smelt it, dealt it."


Vote Rashan

In truth, this claim could only hold ground if Rashan were among the newer Ministers to the court, as the aged old scholars were far too tight-lipped for such verbal plethora of their thoughts revealing their hidden roles. Glancing at the census of the assembled Ministers, however, it could be noted that there were several junior Ministers recently elevated from the public service, and so this argument was found to hold much potential merit.

Thoughh it may be disguised as clever role-playing, a meta-game -based argument remains such.



Tus-tut, how the standards have fallen..

[Liosan]

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Serc, on 13 March 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

This is what is being referred to, previously quoted by someone else, Atrahal maybe
I would like clarification on the underlined part

To clarify the underlined, I was implying that if one of the "scum" had posted on thread, they were likely uncivilized, judging from the posts before that in the thread, I only considered Barghast anything above barbarian (ironically). That was RP.

The beginning of the first quote and the second quote are not RP. They were attempts to begin discussion on what we would be facing. No one took me up on the offer of discussion, and no one responded to me. So I took my leave, guessing at the need for more uncivilized conversation before the serious discussion could begin. No harm done, or so I thought.

The "he who smelt it dealt it " rule (crude, by the way) does not apply here, as I was attempting to discuss the scum faction(s) overall, not any specific role. The specific rule is actually that whomever talks of a >role< first tends to be that role. It is, of course, not always true, but scum often use it to target roled players, and it is again widely used in faction games. In a game where there appears to be only 1 role for scum (maybe a symp, do you think?) discussing the the opposing factions without bringing up their role would be impossible, I'm afraid.

I might linger for a few hours, maybe something interesting will come of this conversation. I stand by my current vote, Fener has betrayed us many times in the past, best to rid ourselves of him now.

The Senior Eunuch, much accustomed to being accused of catering inappropriate Imperial influence, sought to deflect the attention from himself by denouncing further the infamous Minister Fener. Of course, the Ministers would not fall for such a simple distraction and insist upon a proper defensive rhetoric rather than be dispelled by this unseemly deflection!

Kalse, on 13 March 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

I might linger for a few hours, maybe something interesting will come of this conversation. I stand by my current vote, Fener has betrayed us many times in the past, best to rid ourselves of him now.

Another ping on my radar here. You are trying to pass off a Fener vote as substantial, when he hasn't even voted and the draws are random. Odd that you would choose to stand by a vote like this. Not sure if this would make you more or less apt to be scum, but i find it weird.

Indeed, Kalse, Minister of Law, would not rise to the Senior Eunuch Rashan's bait and would cut straight back to the matter at hand. This penetrating rhetoric and wit is the very reason that the ages herald the wisdom of Kalse and despise the coward Rashan.

[Barghast]

I have a feeling Liosan will end this poetic summary with a vote. Any takers which one of us it shall be?

[Atrahal]

Senior Eunuch

[Tellan]

Mockra, on 14 March 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Ok caught up. Quite a lot of stuff for day 1.

I am not sure about the Rashan thing the initial case didnt' really strike me as much, but I found the way Tellan has seemed to defend it has made it scummier to me. If someone has a problem with something Rashan has said, then Rashan should explain himself which he did, quite well not sure why Tellan thought he should come along and stick his oar in as well.

What other cases were going? Fener for being Fener or Karosis for changing around votes...Commenting on cases and getting involved in discussion is sort of the point.

Mockra, on 14 March 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

If your inno and got 2 or 3 votes on day 1 and your giving up? I wanna see you fight as well to not be lynched. And Tellan seemed to find that people wanting Rashan to fight is odd? Why is it odd?

Because he couldn't say anything further against the case. The level resignation was a bit weird, but telling him to fight more at a stage where he can't say anything against a case just seems to be encouraging over-reaction, which I find scummy.

Mockra, on 14 March 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Other thing I found vaguely unsettling was Korvalain and his vote on Fener which he claimed he was doing as he was following his glorious leaders lead. Which was wrong of course, and when called out on it he still continued to happily vote Fener for some other reason. Guess its only vote 2 or something on Fener so wasn't a big deal, however Korvalain had replied to Silanahs initial vote where he voted for Rashan previously and had commented he found Rashan to be suspicous or whatever so I guess he may have just forgotten all of that. . And it seems like such an outlandish slip its no way it was possible.
Still would like to hear from Korvalain anyway just to clear it up.

Looking back, there is a 5 hour gap between Korv quoting Silanah's vote on Rashan and his vote for Fener. He checks and admits the mistake when it's pointed out that Silanah didn't vote Fener. Seems like it could just be a simple bit of forgetfulness. Nothing particularly suspect imo.

[Liosan]

On the second day of court, the Minister of Ceremonies began with an opening speech decrying concern for the avidness with which the more young and active ministers accused the frail and slow ministers of being likely accessories to corruption:

Gamelon, on 14 March 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

I'm at work and reading this so it's taking a while. Writing thoughts as I read:

I'm concerned about the amount of posters looking for low posters on day 1. Lynching through a case is preferable to low post lynching because it gives town more information for day two and the wider game. Lynching on the basis of low posting on the day 1 doesn't generate much in the way of discussion, because there's not much to be said for someone who doesn't say anything. But it's good if you hit a brick wall later in the game. Happily this seems to have been dropped as we've had a couple of cases made.

Okaros and Rash's cases seem to be sticking (at least to me). I want to see Oka's response, because I didn't think they were particularly scummy so I'd like to see more of what they have to say. I think Karosis is going on a campaign against low posting, which may not be a bad thing, but it's a bit concerning in day 1

I can understand Rash's attitude to being a day 1 lynch but Tellen seems to be primarly posting regard to Rash.

Sorry about the summary nature of this post, I couldn't get on the game as early as I wanted to, so I'm playing catch up and working at the same time.

I can't tell how serious Sorrit is... Sarcasm radar is generally not so good

In the calm, ordinary days of Japan this would have been a valid decry. However, in these days of court intrigue and recruitment to warlord factions, rather than the usual blatant murder days, it was in truth not an unreasonable mentality to be wary of the quiet ministers. Such old, silent scholars carried just as much influence as their boisterous brethren, but were far less likely to garner the same suspicion in open court as those who loudly denounced each other. Since the hidden court agents needed solely to lay low and gather their numbers without bloodshed, uniting a group of silent back-benchers could be a powerful hidden force indeed!

[Barghast]

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

Senior Eunuch

I believe this was an equivalent of a Prime Minister.


though the cost he paid is too high for me to consider being tempted.

[Liosan]

Rashan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

Barghast, on 14 March 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I cannot help but wonder, at the risk of inciting the ire similar to that which threatens Rashan, whether or not the gods have demed it fit to place amongst us those vested with the ability to dispose of life, or whether such destiny is reserved solely to the Imperial executioners.

At last, and right before I leave for bed.

I would assume that Silanah has a kill, actually. If not that then a find, with an unrecruitable killer pair under his command.

Suspicions of Imperial assassins dancing across rooftops in the night belied just how mislead the Senior Eunuch Rashan was in these times. While such bloodshed was common in the countryside and provinces of his youth, here in the court the game was of a different sort. There were no bandits or murderers which one could chase after shouting "scum!" at. This was a game of influence and factions, with each side seeking to recruit its membership, rather than eliminate the competition outright. What need the court for night-time assassins against such a threat, when the democratic voice of its day-time court sessions were sufficient?

[Liosan]

Barghast, on 14 March 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

Senior Eunuch

I believe this was an equivalent of a Prime Minister.


though the cost he paid is too high for me to consider being tempted.

Naturally, in those days there was great enmity between the Senior Eunuch and the Senior Magistrate. The Senior Magistrate, who's duties involved roaming across the provincial capitals, which each had a fine selection of brothels, could not fathom the sacrifice made by the Senior Eunuch and so scorned him at many a meeting.

[Atrahal]

I hope everyone loves long quote blocks...and teal.

Tellan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Rainbow time I guess.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Tellan, on 14 March 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

This is his case on Rashan. It's nothing I would personally call speculation (as I said at the time) because it isn't trying to spark any kind of role discussion, just RPing off the setting.

Atrahal, on 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Hail the Anti-Steve!!!!


Now:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Steve? No, Silanah is Go-Kashiwabara, our Emperor.

I highly doubt my fellow Ministers would be so ignorant as all previous posters seem. Too many to vote now, I will sulk in my own despair.

What manner of recruiter will attempt to bribe us, I wonder. Certainly nothing civil so far.

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I, for one, consider it interesting that there may be more than one lowly briber. A single entity taking advantage of our temporary lack of funds does not surprise me, but multiple? Perhaps we will be able to play them against each other.

As someone in the newb game said - "He who smelt it, dealt it."


Vote Rashan

The way I saw it was that it was not RP, but actual speculation with a thin RP disguise, which just made it all the more suspicious to me.

[Here I cut some of the posts of mine you selected without any real explanation, apart from saying 'RP/Spam'. Yeah. So?]

See, now we're getting into actual case discussion. Explain what you think he's speculating about, how it's speculation more than RP (I lean to RP because he's using just the basic premise outlined in the OP, and doesn't look to be trying to draw people into a discussion, which would be scummy imo).

Not trying to draw people into a discussion? Does the fact that he poses questions not strike you as looking for responses, then? As I had already stated, I felt that Rashan was "speculating" about things which he has greater knowledge of than the regular player. And as that "speculation" was about recruiters and their types, I surmised that that is the kind of thing that he is. That's my case. That's my discussion.

I really don't like this post. I don't like the shit he asks Ruse because it's just playing into being a "helpful townie", and contributing nothing while looking like content.

Agrees with another persons suspicions without going into depth. This is exactly the kind of thing he finds so scummy in Okaros later.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Omtose, on 13 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I don't have much time to play until Friday. Having read up, the Rashan case does have merit, well as much merrit as any day one case.

Koralain has also pinged my radar with his post saying he was ready to "whore himself out" (post #51)

I will be back in time for a vote. For now I will wait.

I think you mean post #42 (at least, that's what it says on my view), which is this:

Korvalain, on 13 March 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Well I guess I could whore myself out to earn a few extra bucks. Earn me a nice new cushion to sit on to make all this artsy stuff to sell.

So Omtose, why does this ping your radar? What could it mean in your opinion? A minister who's looking to be recruited? I can see that later in the game when it might look like town won't win, and some townies (scoundrel players) might be looking to switch to what they perceive to be a winning side, but on day 1 I don't see it.

I actually quite like the Karosis case - it's exactly the kind of thing I'd normally vote on on day 1 if I hadn't already made my own thing

As you can see from my post, you are entirely wrong in your observation. How can a post which not only asks questions, but actually ventures ITS OWN OPINION/BELIEF on the matter contribute nothing? You're reaching, my friend.

Asking vague questions is an easy way to look like contribution. Your opinion on the thing with Ruse really isn't content heavy. It assumes a viewpoint from him that is pretty unlikely in the first place and then disagrees with it. You don't really venture much of an opinion on Karosis either. Hey, I vaguely agree with this case for reasons I don't see why. In fact, it seems more like an excuse to hype your own contribution than any sort of engagement with his.

In what sense are my questions vague? If anything, I would call my questions very leading, no? Or, if you still think they're vague, then what exactly would you say to make a question like, 'why does it ping your radar?' less vague. It seems to me a pretty clear question, asking for more reason why he said this, than anything vague. Perhaps you're unaware of what the word 'vague' means, but I take you for a reasonably intelligent person, so I reckon you're just reaching again.

And if you read a little better, you'll see that I have ventured no opinion whatsoever on Karosis...as it was the case on Kalse that I was nodding in the general direction of

Don't like this. He makes a (in my opinion) weak case against someone that they can't really say much to, then tries to draw them into reacting more. Considering how we tend to view "over-reaction", this is a dodgy move.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Rashan, on 13 March 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

:yawn:

I can already tell I'm going to be lynched today, unless someone does something crazy.

If you are scum, pathetic attempt. If you are town, then fight goddamn you! Remember you're part of a team and if you're lynched, it hurts the whole team and not just your lazy ass. Yes, even on day 1. I would prefer to think you're silly scum - you do want to earn my respect don't you?

Fuck, I can't believe I'm pursuing a case I myself made! How stupid of me! You're absolutely right, I should just completely forget I ever said anything. <-- This sentence is supposed to be in sarcasm italics

The only one who seems to be over-reacting to it is you, not Rashan, which is interesting in itself.

What exactly was Rashan meant to say? He explained his side of things already. You were asking him to do what? Say it again but louder?

Also, I am attacking you, not defending him. My opinion on him is simple - I think the case is a bit lacking. Sadly, I also think the way you pushed it is scummy, leading me to call you on that. That is a reaction to your actions, not his. You'll note that initially there was no such reaction to the case, just a stating of my opinion. It is when you started acting in a manner I found scummy itself I got more involved.

I don't know what Rashan was meant to say, I don't put statements out there for people to respond in an exact way. But then you seem to know exactly how Rashan is meant to respond.

And the extent to which I've "pushed" this case is nothing compared to the extent you've brought it back to the fore. I'd venture to suggest that at least 50% of my posts in regard to it now are actually simply in response to you, if not more.

A stretch to criticize Okaros imo. Okaros comes on, and comments in fair detail on a case, even if some of the post is fairly well-covered ground (the stuff about day one). Sure he doesn't make his own case. That doesn't equal non contribution. Okaros' evaluation in considerably more in depth than some of the earlier "Hey, I agree that Rashan looks a bit scummy" stuff, which makes this criticism on him just seem OMGUS. Karosis goes on to decide this post is outright scummy.

Atrahal, on 14 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Okaros, on 14 March 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Geez, it's no wonder people are turning up to check in and then leaving again. We're not even halfway through day one and already people are getting jumped on!

On top of that, between Karosis and Atrahal no one can win. If you defend yourself too much that is suspicious, but if you don't defend yourself at all you're also suspicious!

Day one cases are a crapshoot, and I don't blame Rashan for his resignation. It's pretty much impossible to against a day one case because anything you do or say will be micro-analysed. Sure, scum can slip up on day one as much as any other day, but it takes the context of the following days to find anything useful.

So with that, I am going to head off to work on my kickass Noh Dancing. I'll be back in time to vote. Try not to get your collective knickers twisted too much.

Translation: "I'll criticise other people's attempts to highlight things, but I won't bother to actually contribute anything myself. In fact, I'm not sure why I even posted on day 1. I'll vote for whoever is going to get lynched at the end of the day, because frankly I can't be bothered about giving a shit today."

I'll criticise who I feel like, thanks. Just as people are free to agree or disagree, and I in turn am free to agree or disagree with them. Wait, you've played this game before, right? And, by the way, a long paragraph does not equal more contribution. Just like posting loads of quotes, most with no or little comment, does not necessarily equal contribution.

You do nothing here to actually discuss my comment here.

Your quote comment can be leveled at you just as easily as me.

Are you joking? I directly addressed your comment. I disagreed with your definition of what contribution amounts to, and I ventured my own opinion about how to read what I posted with regard to Okaros.

This is why I don't like Atrahal.

It's not really for the Rashan case. I think the Rashan case is bollocks, but it's more than that. It's the fact that he's playing up his own contribution (see the Okaros post), stretching to contribute, and also had a suspicious following (look at the people jumping up after his initial post saying "Oh yeah, I thought that too", or Sorrit's little defenceof him). I really don't like him trying to force Rashan to "fight god damnit!" against a case where there's not really much he could say.

And I really don't like how he's trying to push his Rashan case by claiming all dissenting opinion is defense. I started by saying I didn't really agree with it. In my opinion, it is a weak case, because at the end of the day, he just seems to me to have been RPing off an element of the setting. Is that an unreasonable opinion for me to hold? Is it unbelievable that I don't think it really is a strong indicator of scum? It is defense only in so much as it is a reasonable disagreement. Were it a much stronger case then perhaps that disagreement would be notable, worth pushing on, but to me it seems ridiculous to call someone disagreeing with such a weak case defensive. Pushing a weak case by claiming someone is being defended after it gets pointed out how weak your case is, is simply poor play.

1) My 'fight' comment wasn't about him not arguing against the case, it was in response to that particular comment he made, which made it sound like he couldn't care less. As it is, Rashan has posted well since. 2) I will always play up my own contribution, because I am awesome. 3) People agreeing with me....maybe because they see some merit to it? 4) And you're right, it's not unbelievable that you simply disagree with the case. But you make it sound as if no one has made positive sounds about the case, which is untrue, and that I've somehow flung shit at whoever's disagreed. Fact is, you're the only one flailing around trying to make absolutely every one of my posts look scummy - poor play, in my opinion.

As I already said, you're free to believe what you want, just as I am. I'll back down if/when I'm contradicted by something irrefutable, or if something stronger comes up. But until that point....

1. Isn't that the same thing? He sounded resigned, you told him to fight more, he'd pretty much said as much as possible against your accusations. Having said that, I do agree that the level of resignation when so early and so few votes is strange.
2. ...
3. Yeah, but to someone who thinks the case is weak it looks a bit odd when a bunch of people jump on a weak case going "Yeah, I was totally thinking this". On a related note, do you not think it odd no one else mentioned it all considering that as soon as you posted it at least one person (Serc?) said he had already noticed that.
4. As for flinging shit at whoever's disagreed, you pretty much have. Posts accusing me and barghast of defending Rashan for not agreeing, criticism of Okaros for non contribution when he contributed a lot more than others who coincidentally happened to agree with you where he didn't...

1) No, it isn't the same thing. At that point, from that post, it looked like he wouldn't be bothered anymore. Which turned out not to be the case (I'd like to think as a direct result of my post ), which is a good thing.
2) Yep.
3) And you don't think it looks odd that you've pushed your own response to this extent? On that related note, I guess I'm just more forward than other people
4) Of course I will try and find things to make my Rashan case stronger if I believe in it. Doesn't mean anyone else has to agree. As for Okaros, if you look back, I'm hardly the only one who had that reaction to Okaros' post.