[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 QuickTidal, on 22 February 2023 - 03:58 PM, said:

 Azath Vitr (D, on 22 February 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 22 February 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

So with MTG and now Hannity spinning the idea of a national divorce for the USA along Red/Blue State lines (also called Secession/Sedition)...do we think that BOTH of them are stupid or is Hannity just playing his role as "Fox News Riles the Unintelligent Base, while knowing they spew bullshit"?

Because MTG slowly trying to reposition her statements as it dawns on her how FUCKED they would be without the rest of the Blue States and the Feds...the thing that no one comments on that I always note when someone talks like this is that Fascism (whether they want to realize that's what they are aiming at/doing) is inherently entropic. A death cult. A spiralling miasma of propaganda and otherism until no one is left.

Like let's say (ignoring for a moment that such a thing would fail for a thousand other reasons) that MTG and the MAGA idiots got their wish and the Red States were able to secede, be their own thing and become whatever evangelical white utopias where they controlled everything...the very fact of fascist rule like that would unravel them...because once they only have THEIR people, and no one else in those red states is left to be their "other"....which as it stands seems to be POC, LGBTQ, the educated, and whatever other whipping posts they've set up as their others to fight against...let's say all those people left and they were left with their pristine white religious unintelligent population only...fascism demands an OTHER. They won't STOP that rhetoric becuase they've gotten the thing they claimed to want...they will find NEW Others amongst that supposedly "pure" population to persecute. This will roll and repeat forver until either a large enough group realizes that it's fascism and they will die from it, or the whole thing implodes until only a tiny cabal of top brass people are left who will all have knives out for each other for that top spot.

Every country that has dabbled in fascism has EVENTUALLY fallen, and if they haven't yet, they will.

What makes them think they will be different? They can't be that dumb. Or maybe they can?

Unfortunately they'd also insist on having nukes....

To what end? Like how does that interfere with what I said (Assuming that the Red States COULD secede without losing their attachment to the US; which they cannot as far as I know....they would literally become little countries (with no infrastructure or real economy to speak of)...so like do you expect them to steal nukes or make their own? In which case, they would be going up against the military they helped make into the biggest one in the world...like that makes no sense.

Also, the funny thing is that both MTG and Hannity live in States that Biden/Dems won (Georgia and NY respectively)....so they'd literally fall on the Liberal side of the argument...

Like none of this makes any sense and is like when a teenager wants to live by their own rules under their parents roofs....it's childish nonsense.

I'd be tempted to vote in favor of letting the red states secede so we can finally make amendments to the Constitution (or get rid of it and come up with a new and better one) and institute sensible policies like more restrictive gun control, universal healthcare, etc.

But as part of the agreement they'd want their own military---and a large portion of the US military is from red states or stationed in red states. Including many nuclear facilities. And I'm pretty sure they'd want some of those nukes for themselves.

Mentally unstable religious fanatics with nukes are a danger to the world (and especially their neighbors)... even if they don't descend into civil war amongst themselves.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'[...] national divorce is a popular idea across the American political spectrum (including among progressive Democrats), and [...] it’s popular for pretty good reason. In the grand scheme of stuff that comes out of Greene’s mouth[...] national divorce proposals are well on the normal and sensible side.

[...] It’s a lot harder to divide an established polity, to carve up government assets, write new constitutional law, and convince the outvoted minority in any given region that yes, actually, they do have to live in a new country even though they don’t want to and they were fine with how things were and they never asked for any of this.'

National Divorce Is More Popular Than You Think

[QuickTidal]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 22 February 2023 - 04:13 PM, said:

But as part of the agreement they'd want their own military---and a large portion of the US military is from red states or stationed in red states. Including many nuclear facilities. And I'm pretty sure they'd want some of those nukes for themselves.

I see, and what right would they have to them? The Nukes are the property of the US and A, and as such, no Red State countries or satellites would get that access without a fight with the Feds.

If AT best they became like Puerto Rico, there would be even less impetus to provide.

Let me be Clear, in no universe do the Red States secede or divorce from the Union in any way, and get access to nukes. That access even at bases in Red States would be revoked and moved before the separation even occurred. The only way separate Red States get nuke access is with a fight, or seditious actions and theft.

[Primateus]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 22 February 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 22 February 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

So with MTG and now Hannity spinning the idea of a national divorce for the USA along Red/Blue State lines (also called Secession/Sedition)...do we think that BOTH of them are stupid or is Hannity just playing his role as "Fox News Riles the Unintelligent Base, while knowing they spew bullshit"?

Because MTG slowly trying to reposition her statements as it dawns on her how FUCKED they would be without the rest of the Blue States and the Feds...the thing that no one comments on that I always note when someone talks like this is that Fascism (whether they want to realize that's what they are aiming at/doing) is inherently entropic. A death cult. A spiralling miasma of propaganda and otherism until no one is left.

Like let's say (ignoring for a moment that such a thing would fail for a thousand other reasons) that MTG and the MAGA idiots got their wish and the Red States were able to secede, be their own thing and become whatever evangelical white utopias where they controlled everything...the very fact of fascist rule like that would unravel them...because once they only have THEIR people, and no one else in those red states is left to be their "other"....which as it stands seems to be POC, LGBTQ, the educated, and whatever other whipping posts they've set up as their others to fight against...let's say all those people left and they were left with their pristine white religious unintelligent population only...fascism demands an OTHER. They won't STOP that rhetoric becuase they've gotten the thing they claimed to want...they will find NEW Others amongst that supposedly "pure" population to persecute. This will roll and repeat forver until either a large enough group realizes that it's fascism and they will die from it, or the whole thing implodes until only a tiny cabal of top brass people are left who will all have knives out for each other for that top spot.

Every country that has dabbled in fascism has EVENTUALLY fallen, and if they haven't yet, they will.

What makes them think they will be different? They can't be that dumb. Or maybe they can?

Unfortunately they'd also insist on having nukes....

Would they actually get them? If some states actually goes ahead and secedes, and we make the assumption that they were allowed to and it turns out to be a peaceful secession, would the various branches of military present in said states not just up and relocate themselves and all their stuff to a union state? The American Department of Energy, would they not then "simply" move all nuclear weapons to union states?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 Primateus, on 22 February 2023 - 09:40 PM, said:

 Azath Vitr (D, on 22 February 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 22 February 2023 - 02:23 PM, said:

So with MTG and now Hannity spinning the idea of a national divorce for the USA along Red/Blue State lines (also called Secession/Sedition)...do we think that BOTH of them are stupid or is Hannity just playing his role as "Fox News Riles the Unintelligent Base, while knowing they spew bullshit"?

Because MTG slowly trying to reposition her statements as it dawns on her how FUCKED they would be without the rest of the Blue States and the Feds...the thing that no one comments on that I always note when someone talks like this is that Fascism (whether they want to realize that's what they are aiming at/doing) is inherently entropic. A death cult. A spiralling miasma of propaganda and otherism until no one is left.

Like let's say (ignoring for a moment that such a thing would fail for a thousand other reasons) that MTG and the MAGA idiots got their wish and the Red States were able to secede, be their own thing and become whatever evangelical white utopias where they controlled everything...the very fact of fascist rule like that would unravel them...because once they only have THEIR people, and no one else in those red states is left to be their "other"....which as it stands seems to be POC, LGBTQ, the educated, and whatever other whipping posts they've set up as their others to fight against...let's say all those people left and they were left with their pristine white religious unintelligent population only...fascism demands an OTHER. They won't STOP that rhetoric becuase they've gotten the thing they claimed to want...they will find NEW Others amongst that supposedly "pure" population to persecute. This will roll and repeat forver until either a large enough group realizes that it's fascism and they will die from it, or the whole thing implodes until only a tiny cabal of top brass people are left who will all have knives out for each other for that top spot.

Every country that has dabbled in fascism has EVENTUALLY fallen, and if they haven't yet, they will.

What makes them think they will be different? They can't be that dumb. Or maybe they can?

Unfortunately they'd also insist on having nukes....

Would they actually get them? If some states actually goes ahead and secedes, and we make the assumption that they were allowed to and it turns out to be a peaceful secession, would the various branches of military present in said states not just up and relocate themselves and all their stuff to a union state? The American Department of Energy, would they not then "simply" move all nuclear weapons to union states?

Would be more of a mutual agreement to split ('divorce' not 'secession'). MAGAers (no offense to Magyars) see themselves as the true Americans who believe in the ('Go*-inspired') Constitution (as it existed 200+ years ago) and idolize the military; from their perspective it might be more like kicking out the unpatriotic godless idolators of 'progress'.

They'd want to keep a lot of the military.

If they tried to secede unilaterally it would almost certainly involve an actual conspiracy among many in the military....

Though IDK that their theocratic and evangelical beliefs would respect borders---especially (as QT points out) when they need enemies to demonize. Like them Blue State Baby Killers....

[Cause]

The red states will need blue states money. So it’s perfect. A new set of cheap migrant workers closer than the Mexican border.

[Maark Abbott]

I've seen something about one of the states passing a ban on drag performance that is a thinly veiled attack on the rights of marginalised folks. Anyone got anything further on it?

[worry]

That's probably Tennessee -- the bill passed both chambers of their legislature and is headed to the governor. It's not a total ban, but what they are doing is lumping them in with sexually explicit "adult cabaret" shows more broadly, e.g. strip clubs and the like, and restricting where these performances can take place (nowhere near schools, public places, etc.). The very, very obvious goal being to link drag performers (and by proxy, LGBTQ people) to child predation and further inspire their murders.

Look for this tactic to spread like a mold across the red states.

[Gorefest]

 worry, on 24 February 2023 - 08:57 AM, said:

That's probably Tennessee -- the bill passed both chambers of their legislature and is headed to the governor. It's not a total ban, but what they are doing is lumping them in with sexually explicit "adult cabaret" shows more broadly, e.g. strip clubs and the like, and restricting where these performances can take place (nowhere near schools, public places, etc.). The very, very obvious goal being to link drag performers (and by proxy, LGBTQ people) to child predation and further inspire their murders.

Look for this tactic to spread like a mold across the red states.

I guess no more panto in Tennessee then?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Legislation targeting drag performances has been introduced in multiple state legislatures this year.'

'[...] Arkansas bill could “ban all trans people performing, doing karaoke, making a dirty joke, and more.”

[...] questioned whether an academic talk would be considered a “performance” under the law.

[...] Oklahoma measure, individuals who hold drag queen story hours or adopt “a flamboyant or parodic feminine persona with glamorous or exaggerated costumes and makeup” could be charged with a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail.

[...] West Virginia bills[...] would make it illegal to subject a minor to “transgender exposure” in addition to material that is “patently offensive.”'

Bill to classify drag shows as ‘adult-oriented businesses’ clears Arkansas Senate | The Hill

'Emotions run high as committee passes Oklahoma bill regarding drag shows in public spaces

[...] would ban exotic dancing or drag performances in public settings where children are present[... and] reading events for kids hosted by drag queens.'

Oklahoma bill regarding drag shows passes committee

[Lady Bliss]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 24 February 2023 - 01:26 PM, said:

'Legislation targeting drag performances has been introduced in multiple state legislatures this year.'

'[...] Arkansas bill could “ban all trans people performing, doing karaoke, making a dirty joke, and more.”

[...] questioned whether an academic talk would be considered a “performance” under the law.

[...] Oklahoma measure, individuals who hold drag queen story hours or adopt “a flamboyant or parodic feminine persona with glamorous or exaggerated costumes and makeup” could be charged with a misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail.

[...] West Virginia bills[...] would make it illegal to subject a minor to “transgender exposure” in addition to material that is “patently offensive.”'

Bill to classify drag shows as ‘adult-oriented businesses’ clears Arkansas Senate | The Hill

'Emotions run high as committee passes Oklahoma bill regarding drag shows in public spaces

[...] would ban exotic dancing or drag performances in public settings where children are present[... and] reading events for kids hosted by drag queens.'

Oklahoma bill regarding drag shows passes committee

So basically the Mechanical’s scene from a Midsummer knight’s dream Twelth Knight would be banned from Shakespeare in the park performances.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'The FBI has for the first time made clear its assessment on the origins of COVID-19—with the bureau's director [...] on Fox News [...]

“The FBI has for quite some time now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident [...]” [...]

[...] the FBI has declared its determination comes with “moderate confidence.”

“So, here you’re talking about a potential leak from a Chinese government-controlled lab that killed millions of Americans, and that’s precisely what that capability was designed for.”'

FBI Director Christopher Wray Says COVID ‘Most Likely’ Came From Wuhan Lab

WTF, 'precisely what that capability was designed for'? Going on Fox News to accuse China of leaking a bioweapon designed to 'kill millions of Americans'?


'The DOE’s information is classified, so it’s hard to evaluate what it contains. But we do know that the DOE has “low confidence” in their assessment that the virus came from a lab, as the WSJ reported, so it seems like whatever they know now isn’t thoroughly convincing.

[...] a National Security Council spokesperson said [...] there is not a consensus within the government.

[...] Four of the eight [US intelligence] agencies [...] leaned towards natural spread, with low confidence. [...] Three agencies, including the CIA and the DOE, couldn’t make up their minds.

[...]

Lab leak or not, they agreed with full confidence that COVID was not a biological weapon and were confident that China did not see the pandemic coming. Most agencies also agreed that COVID wasn’t genetically engineered, leaving less nefarious lab-leak options like mis-handling animals or viruses.

[...]

If there were now evidence to firmly support either chain of events, presumably the DOE would have higher confidence in their assessment—and, other agencies would be joining them in their conclusion. The Journal article explains that the other agencies had the same information and did not switch their positions.'

Lab-leak theory: What the evidence actually says now

... Department of Energy leaking to the (right-wing Rupert Murdoch owned) Wall Street Journal is also sketchy (and what sort of intelligence agency does the DOE have anyway? and while bio-fuels are certainly a thing I'd guess they don't have any virologists or epidemiologists (though the idea of extracting energy through a pandemic is amusing...)).

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Of course the FBI director is a Trump appointee... guess keeping him on was politically useful for making investigations of Trump seem more legitimate (not that Trump's true believers GAF). And if Biden fires him now it may seem like a cover-up, and probably inflame people even more....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 01 March 2023 - 12:51 PM

[QuickTidal]

It turns out it's incredibly hard to pinpoint virus origins, even when it doesn't involve any humans in any labs...from what I understand even sourcing the last few major Ebola outbreaks was difficult. They are pretty sure those started in Kitum Cave, located in Mount Elgon National Park, Kenya....and though they searched and searched and tested everything, they could not find the original vector....so I doubt that (unless we've got specific spy intel, which I highly doubt they do) they could claim with any accuracy that it was a lab leak (deliberate or not) like this... and in fact it's almost certainly WAY more likely (Occam's razor and all that) to have jumped from animals to humans in a similar way just like the Kitum cave incidents did, with someone in the wrong place at the wrong time in rural China who happened to get infected and didn't realize for 2 weeks incubation.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

It seems like 'that's precisely what that capability was designed for' was probably referring to the FBI's 'capability', not China's:

'Wray said in the interview that the FBI has a team of experts who focus specifically on the risk of biological threats that come into the "wrong hands," including by a "hostile nation state."

"You're talking about a potential leak from a Chinese government-controlled lab that killed millions of Americans," Wray said of the coronavirus, "and that's precisely what that capability was designed for."'

FBI Director Wray acknowledges bureau assessment that Covid-19 likely resulted from lab incident

But making statements on Fox News that could easily be misinterpreted, with disastrous implications, is extremely reckless---whether incompetent or calculated....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 01 March 2023 - 01:31 PM

[Cause]

Ebolas origins have never been definitively proven. There is evidence of Ebola in bats, but bats as the only flying mammal have a unique and highly effective immune system. So while biological markers that prove that Ebola has been in bats, no evidence of active transmission in a bay colony has ever been shown. However the evidence does seem clear enough that bats are a zoological reservoir of Ebola.

As for the lab leak theory. Bio safety lvl 4 labs don’t just leak. Especially in regards to a virus like covid-19 which isn’t particularly hardy from what we saw. Now it’s not impossible, a researcher could accidentally needle stick themselves through their suit and the quarantine procedures they had for them once they were brought out the BSL4 could have led to transmission. However without knowing what evidence they use to make the assesment, human error would be I think the mostly likely culprit. However America might like to think of China, I don’t think that they would operate a BSL4 in shoddy condition or with shoddy controls in place as a matter of course. If they did, I think the intel community could have gathered some kind of evidence indicating that. I’m sure these labs are under scrutiny of this kind somewhat regularly regardless of covid 19.

A BSL 4 is hermetically sealed. All air is HEPA filtered. There is a negative pressure gradient so if their was a crack air should leak in not out. Going into and out of the lab should involve a detoxifying shower over the space suit to wipe away any contaminants. Samples that go out of the BSL4 are usually irradiated to kill any DNA. The sealed BSl4 lab should itself essentially be inside a second sealed and secured error.

That said bio safety lab accidents do happen, but they can happen without I’ll intent. An African filovirous, brother to Ebola, is callled Marburg disease. It’s named for a town in Germany because the first recorded outbreak happened in Germany after monkeys from Africa were shipped to Germany for research and and infected the scientists.

The reason Germany imported African monkeys? To use their kidney tissue s to create cell cultures to develop and test vaccines.

This post has been edited by Cause: 01 March 2023 - 02:00 PM

[QuickTidal]

 Cause, on 01 March 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

However America might like to think of China, I don’t think that they would operate a BSL4 in shoddy condition or with shoddy controls in place as a matter of course.

This bit cannot be overstated. Same is true of belief of them here in Canada.

China, for many conspiracy theorists falls into that "fascist rhetoric" category of being everything all at once...they are considered simultaneously a bunch of bumbling ne'erdowells in shoddily built and managed labs that let this leak out into their own populace AND are also the biggest and most dangerously tricky threat the planet faces...

They can't be both.

To these people your enemy is both too dumb and backward to be looked up with anything but derision, and too dangerous to be left doing what they do.

And to the point of "they deliberately let it escape"...you would have to be the DUMBEST leaders in history to plan a leak of a respiratory virus by letting it out of a lab in your own country (in a town where such a lab is KNOWN globally to be) and run through a large swathe of your population (deepening demand on health services and other infrastructure costs) to use it as a bioweapon against the rest of the world. That is some herculean level nonsense for a world power like the CCP to engage in. FFS if this was a bioweapon CCP wanted to use like this...then some spy-tourist would have infected himself on a passenger plane headed to the USA or some other Western nation and let it infect the passengers...why on EARTH would you make it so the finger could be pointed at your lab in your country, kill a slew of our own citizens, AND draw heavily on funds for any number of COVID protocols and needs after the initial outbreak. It would be BEYOND stupid...but then conspiracy theorists can't seem to think logically outside their misinformation bubble.

[Abyss]

 QuickTidal, on 01 March 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

...
And to the point of "they deliberately let it escape"...you would have to be the DUMBEST leaders in history to plan a leak of a respiratory virus by letting it out of a lab in your own country (in a town where such a lab is KNOWN globally to be) and run through a large swathe of your population (deepening demand on health services and other infrastructure costs) to use it as a bioweapon against the rest of the world. That is some herculean level nonsense for a world power like the CCP to engage in. FFS if this was a bioweapon CCP wanted to use like this...then some spy-tourist would have infected himself on a passenger plane headed to the USA or some other Western nation and let it infect the passengers...why on EARTH would you make it so the finger could be pointed at your lab in your country, kill a slew of our own citizens, AND draw heavily on funds for any number of COVID protocols and needs after the initial outbreak. It would be BEYOND stupid...but then conspiracy theorists can't seem to think logically outside their misinformation bubble.

This.
Zero trouble believing that an accidental leak happened and they massively/deliberately/deceptively mishandled it. But on purpose... nah. They may not be S.P.E.C.T.R.E. but they're sure as hell not Cobra.

[Garak]

I have an aunt who is still convinced this was deliberately done to cut down world population. All the government's are in on it. This despite the number of deaths being a drop in the bucket compared to the population of the world.

[QuickTidal]

And here it comes...

https://newrepublic....rriage-equality

They will throw these cases up till there is a challenge they can put in front of SCOTUS and then just like RvW, this will go bye-bye. Watching the stuff people predicated the GOP was up to and planning come true is pretty horrifying.