[worry]

I'm starting to think this guy likes to do crimes and surrounds himself with other people who like to do crimes.

[Primateus]

worry, on 13 December 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

I'm starting to think this guy likes to do crimes and surrounds himself with other people who like to do crimes.

You know what? I'm beginning to think that he doesn't even think of it as crimes. No, they're not crimes, it's just business. He's a businessman doing business, all in a days work.

Of course, that doesn't make it not a crime. But without any evidence or basis to declare such, I'm thinking it's some sort of "disconnect" from what he's actually doing. He thinks he's a businessman doing business.

It's all just business to him. All the lying, the hush money, the under-the-table deals, the stiffing of kreditors, it's all just business to him. Because that's how he's always done it.

[worry]

To a certain degree you're right, but I can't fully agree with that, and I'll tell you why: there's definitely a business-as-usual sense to a lot of what he does, for sure, but I don't think he's naive to his own criminality. He can't be, at this point. Rather, he doesn't care, because he believes (knows?) he's above the law.


For one thing, he's come up against the law from very early on in his career (e.g. the racial discrimination in housing he and his father conducted). For another, he's an adjudicated grifter, most recently with the Trump U scam. He literally scammed thousands of people out of millions of dollars, was found by a court of law to have done so, and had to pay millions of dollars in penalty. Also, he does business with the Italian-American mafia and very likely w/ organized crime in Russia, and has likely been doing at least money laundering for decades. Most damningly, though, are his own attempts to cover up what he does: he knows enough to hide what he's doing from law enforcement (not necessarily competently).

We're probably mostly on the same page. I'm not saying there aren't elements of pathology, comfort, ingrained family & business culture, in all he does. Nor that plenty of what he's done is routine behavior for a lot of rich people. And for many, swindling people out of money legally is just as good as illegally. But he does both, and is aware he does both imo, so I just don't want to give him any outs.

[Mezla PigDog]

QuickTidal, on 12 December 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Cohen sentenced to 3 years in prison.

The #Cohen hashtag on twitter right now is a popcorn-worthy shitshow.

This kind of got buried in the UK due to our internal strife. Surely it has to spell the beginning of the end for Trump - Cohen confessed to covering up his illegal activity for years and said he will give evidence on the Russian Trump Tower stuff. Isn't it just a question of how long it takes to get to the end now? I'm thinking years after the end of his Presidency here. Or do people suspect the US system is so broken that the basic rule of law won't stretch that far.

[Aptorian]

I think what worries people is that there will never be enough support to, not just impeach the president but also remove him. Meaning, to avoid prosecution and civil suits, Trump will run for a second term and likely win because America is crazy and the Democrats suck.

What I find more interesting is the Marina Butina and NRA story. She now admits to being a foreign agent and is working with the feds. How is this not the biggest scandal? The Republican's and the nutjob NRA, who claim to be red, white and blue blooded Patriots, were out right courting the Russians and using their money to finance NRA TV and other right wing propaganda.

Like, these fuckers are outright traitors in my mind. The hypocrisy of their actions is galling.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 14 December 2018 - 09:23 AM

[Cause]

Primateus, on 13 December 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

worry, on 13 December 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

I'm starting to think this guy likes to do crimes and surrounds himself with other people who like to do crimes.

You know what? I'm beginning to think that he doesn't even think of it as crimes. No, they're not crimes, it's just business. He's a businessman doing business, all in a days work.

I think this concept is one that needs to be studied more. Trump does not completely fit the mold of an African president but Africa is full of presidents which once they assume office assume the law does not apply to them. Other people are corrupt, they are just accepting money from stupid people who think they can influence them before they make the decision they were going to anyway. Its not self enrichment, they are the president and it embarrasses the country if they don't look the part. Now as I say I know trump doesn't fit this mold completely and many of his crimes predate his presidency. Nevertheless what I think they all share in common is this type of cognitive dissonance which allows them to convince themselves, and they truly do believe it, that they are not doing anything wrong.

Trump university is probably a good example. He defrauded people out of millions but I guarantee you in his mind its not his fault if he is smart enough to get people to give him their money. Laws are for stupid people. I know a guy like that, literally once said to me that white collar crime is only a crime if you get caught. If millions of dollars go missing and no one notices why shouldn't you take it.

[Aptorian]

I've been watching some clips on ABC news' YouTube channel of a new interview with Michael Cohen.

Dude looks like shit. The trial has definitely taken it's toll. His regret does seem real but in some of his answers I get the feeling that underneath the penitent, sympathetic facade, there's a guy who's still a piece of shit.

[Malankazooie]

The courtroom sketch artist sees it too.

'The saddest image': courtroom sketch captures Michael Cohen's bad day

[worry]

^^^^^^^^^ Not lookin good, Michael.

Another very good lawyer:

[worry]

Have a good weekend, folks!

[Brujah]

Mezla PigDog, on 14 December 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 12 December 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Cohen sentenced to 3 years in prison.

The #Cohen hashtag on twitter right now is a popcorn-worthy shitshow.

This kind of got buried in the UK due to our internal strife. Surely it has to spell the beginning of the end for Trump - Cohen confessed to covering up his illegal activity for years and said he will give evidence on the Russian Trump Tower stuff. Isn't it just a question of how long it takes to get to the end now? I'm thinking years after the end of his Presidency here. Or do people suspect the US system is so broken that the basic rule of law won't stretch that far.

I don't think enough people care. Their world seems an ocean away at times.

[Primateus]

worry, on 15 December 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

Have a good weekend, folks!

Can they do that? I don't think they can do that. Wasn't it upheld in the supreme court?

[worry]

It was upheld by SCOTUS because the penalty was seen as a tax (including by John Roberts, the deciding vote) but since Congress did away with the penalty in the tax bill last year, this judge has decided there is no "tax" element left. And since the individual mandate is part and parcel to the ACA as a whole, but is no longer a 'tax', the whole thing is unconstitutional.


Whether this reasoning will hold up on appeal is another story, but I'm not exactly optimistic. ACA is not immediately canceled, since the judge didn't issue an injunction, but I'm not hopeful it will survive this SCOTUS when it gets there (the end of the penalty may be exactly what Roberts needs to side with the other conservatives). I will say, as much as I think ACA is better than the previous status quo, any Dem who's not on the Medicare For All train by 2020 should be tarred and feathered.

[Macros]

Surely everyone who has benefited from ombamacare or what ever it's called should be voting forever anti GOP the second it gets cancelled yes?

[worry]

The majority of the people do vote anti-GOP, election year after election year. But because of gerrymandering (for House reps), the electoral college (for prez), and the Senate (all states get two regardless of population), the GOP has an absolutely massive systemic advantage. If I had to bet, I would say more likely than not eliminating ACA would be enough for Dems to overcome that advantage in 2020. But you know me -- I don't have to think both sides are equally awful to understand there are enough Dems who do suck that even Dem majorities won't be a cure-all.


I won't get too in the weeds/boring re: US politics, but that is why progressives within the party are so important (especially if they refuse corporate PAC money), and why constituents contacting their legislators to exert pressure is important. And here's a solid tip imo for those contacting politicians outside their areas (e.g. you live in Cali but want to exert pressure on a 'moderate' Dem in, say, Texas): because they usually ignore people who aren't potential votes, always always always say you will donate to anyone who primaries them from the left on that issue.

[Zaloopa]

There's also the problem that a large number of GOP supporters don't seem to realize that the ACA and Obamacare are the same thing. I have a coworker who praised the republican party for trying to repeal Obamacare, then went on to tell me how glad she is that the ACA was helping with her insurance bills.

[Tsundoku]

Zaloopa, on 16 December 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

There's also the problem that a large number of GOP supporters don't seem to realize that the ACA and Obamacare are the same thing. I have a coworker who praised the republican party for trying to repeal Obamacare, then went on to tell me how glad she is that the ACA was helping with her insurance bills.

This is what happens when you have such a large percentage of the population that are ignorant and proud of it.
And enabled in that attitude by an unholy trinity of big business, fundamentalist religion and the GOP because that's their herd that they feed from. As parasites.

[HoosierDaddy]

Republicans are absolutely fantastic at branding things. "Death panels" is another great example.

[Tsundoku]

Having just now read what the heck "death panel" means, I would have thought it was a deliberate policy the GOP would be proud to call their own.

[Tiste Simeon]

"A term coined by Sarah Palin..."

Well, I've read enough...

https://en.wikipedia...nel?wprov=sfla1