[Nicodimas]

@ Menty: Still not a fan of this nonsense of not trying. There’s an article that basically says S Korea is going to take the burden. I believe they are in favor of it. That’s more of a difference between western and eastern culture right there.

As of right now South Korean goverment had programs that assist. However the cost of of an overall integration is north of 500 billion.

The humanitarian crisis would be wicked. Here’s the thing.. the US would probably pay a good chunk and so would China. It would easily become a race to influence.

If you then think the cost of North Korea collapsing .. millions dieing, potentially lashing out south with War. Drawing the US into this conflict. This could be what is occurring behind the scenes too!

Peace and integration are way more ideal than that alternative. It’s been 7 decades .. we have countries of means right there too.

[worry]

Macros, on 19 June 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

People in America will march on McDonalds when they run out of Szechuan sauce but are happy to let the pumpkin do what he wants in their name.

And make no mistake, this IS in your name in the eyes of the world. you might not have voted for him but what are you doing to try and stop him?

Also, Senator Feinstein has very simple, straightforward legislation drafted that would stop this, and it has the entire Senate Democratic caucus behind it (even the worst of the Blue Dogs) and so far it has zero Republicans. Not any of the so-callled moderates like McCain, Sasse, Collins, Flake. Why is that? Because the Republican Party is a white supremacist party and every last one of these creeps agrees with what the admin is doing.

[Primateus]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 19 June 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

Macros, on 19 June 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

People in America will march on McDonalds when they run out of Szechuan sauce but are happy to let the pumpkin do what he wants in their name.

And make no mistake, this IS in your name in the eyes of the world. you might not have voted for him but what are you doing to try and stop him?

Also, Senator Feinstein has very simple, straightforward legislation drafted that would stop this, and it has the entire Senate Democratic caucus behind it (even the worst of the Blue Dogs) and so far it has zero Republicans. Not any of the so-callled moderates like McCain, Sasse, Collins, Flake. Why is that? Because the Republican Party is a white supremacist party and every last one of these creeps agrees with what the admin is doing.

Exactly like I said, they don't want to.

[worry]

Yah. I will say that some politicians are feeling the heat -- there is growing discomfort with it among R voters who aren't super Trumpists, even some R governors have changed their minds about sending National Guard to the border to help -- and that contacting your legislators is definitely a good idea on this subject esp. if you live in R areas. Call their office(s) to leave your opinion, and if that's not your bag, use https://resist.bot (which faxes them your message, w/ your basic info as a constituent, so it's a physical copy, something more powerful than an email or online petition on the hierarchy of contacting them, at least). You can use your phone OR even Facebook messenger.

[Mentalist]

Nicodimas, on 19 June 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

@ Menty: Still not a fan of this nonsense of not trying. There’s an article that basically says S Korea is going to take the burden. I believe they are in favor of it. That’s more of a difference between western and eastern culture right there.

As of right now South Korean goverment had programs that assist. However the cost of of an overall integration is north of 500 billion.

The humanitarian crisis would be wicked. Here’s the thing.. the US would probably pay a good chunk and so would China. It would easily become a race to influence.

If you then think the cost of North Korea collapsing .. millions dieing, potentially lashing out south with War. Drawing the US into this conflict. This could be what is occurring behind the scenes too!

Peace and integration are way more ideal than that alternative. It’s been 7 decades .. we have countries of means right there too.

Call me a skeptic... but I'll believe in this kind of altruism when I see it.

At the moment, NK's stance on nukes as guarantor of sovereignty is perfectly reasonable given Russia's land grab in 2014

[HoosierDaddy]

I used to believe that if you came here because you wanted to live here you were an American. That's what we did; that's what we were. We have traveled a very long way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

A slow meandering towards very tough limits has now come face to face with the absolute outcome of that decline. You ask what we are going to do and are doing? What we can. This is imminently fixable, but not in the face of absolute obstruction.

[HoosierDaddy]

"Tender Age Shelters?" Are you fucking kidding me? "Children concentration camps." That's what that means.

No pictures. No video. Can't let people actually see this. Oh, I'm so fucking mad.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 20 June 2018 - 02:08 AM

[Slow Ben]

I feel like I’m going to throw up every time I read the news. And the amount of people I know and respected who are making excuses, or are flat out ok with it, is staggering.

[HoosierDaddy]

I can get drunk on politics, I admit it. I have my beliefs. They are mutable, but hard to do so. I know that.

I don't know anymore. I'm just lost. I don't get it. What's so wrong that we do this? Who are these people hurting? Nearly everyone who voted for Trump is a child of an immigrant. Why support this? Children paying for crimes of their parents... we kind of founded a country to fight that.

[HoosierDaddy]

My Democratic Senator's message was full. Hopefully with the same message. Left one with my Congressman and other Senator, this being Indiana of course Republicans. I don't care to brag. I'm doing what I can. I don't have time to march, I have to survive on my hourly wage for now, and that is with a new loan to carry me through some troubles.

Like I said: We are trying; we are acting.

[worry]

Maddow's reaction to that news says it all:

I will also say, in line with HD, that people are voicing their objections.
Secretary Nielsen just got protested out (as in she had to leave) her dinner at an upscale Mexican restaurant tonight. I hope that happens to all these scumbags every time they show their face in public. And I wouldn't mind if a few of the people who demand decorum above all else melt like they just saw the Ark of the Covenant.
I've heard of a few political press conferences today being turned into Q&As on this, which I also hope continues.
And June 30th is gonna see a pretty big nationwide protest. The momentum is already pretty impressive. Info here: http://www.familiesbelongtogether.org/ and here: https://act.moveon.o...gether/search/.
And I also agree with HD that not every approach is for everyone, and people should just do what they can where they can. Pressure on legislators is key.

[Primateus]

HoosierDaddy, on 20 June 2018 - 12:56 AM, said:

I used to believe that if you came here because you wanted to live here you were an American. That's what we did; that's what we were. We have traveled a very long way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

A slow meandering towards very tough limits has now come face to face with the absolute outcome of that decline. You ask what we are going to do and are doing? What we can. This is imminently fixable, but not in the face of absolute obstruction.

I think you're being overly optimistic, HD. This is still far from the absolute outcome of the decline. As horrible as what this shit is, it can still get worse.

[Cause]

Primateus, on 20 June 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 20 June 2018 - 12:56 AM, said:

I used to believe that if you came here because you wanted to live here you were an American. That's what we did; that's what we were. We have traveled a very long way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

A slow meandering towards very tough limits has now come face to face with the absolute outcome of that decline. You ask what we are going to do and are doing? What we can. This is imminently fixable, but not in the face of absolute obstruction.

I think you're being overly optimistic, HD. This is still far from the absolute outcome of the decline. As horrible as what this shit is, it can still get worse.

America has never been this though. Its a country founded by immigrants and has accepted many immigrants over the years. That's undeniable. Still it has turned away refugees, asylum seekers for decades. I don't even necessarily blame them, every country has to make some decisions about us vs them or their wouldn't be enough to go around. That said yes, this is a low point

[Primateus]

Cause, on 20 June 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

Primateus, on 20 June 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 20 June 2018 - 12:56 AM, said:

I used to believe that if you came here because you wanted to live here you were an American. That's what we did; that's what we were. We have traveled a very long way from "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

A slow meandering towards very tough limits has now come face to face with the absolute outcome of that decline. You ask what we are going to do and are doing? What we can. This is imminently fixable, but not in the face of absolute obstruction.

I think you're being overly optimistic, HD. This is still far from the absolute outcome of the decline. As horrible as what this shit is, it can still get worse.

America has never been this though. Its a country founded by immigrants and has accepted many immigrants over the years. That's undeniable. Still it has turned away refugees, asylum seekers for decades. I don't even necessarily blame them, every country has to make some decisions about us vs them or their wouldn't be enough to go around. That said yes, this is a low point

I understand, I was merely pointing out that HD was wrong when he said that it had come face to face with the absolute outcome. I'm sorry, but that's a failure of imagination. It can get worse, much worse. Because as bad as it is right now, at least the official policy isn't shoot on sight. Yet.

[QuickTidal]

Every single member of the administration still supporting this action...are fucking Nazi's. Plain and simple, fucking Nazis. It may have been hyperbole before, but it's not now.

The problem I think lies in the fact that most WWII vets are already dead or dying, and the Boomers rejected what their parents did to an extent (so they don't care?), and the Gen-Xer's and Millennials weren't alive in the time when this was actually going down, so they don't quite get it.

The Americans (and the rest of the Allies) who fought against this EXACT type of tyranny are sadly gone, and the ones left are either allowing it to rise up, or are the ones who are trying to help but are not enough in numbers and/or don't have any real current power (hopefully that changes with the election process). It's especially galling with this gestapo mentality of "you don't need to see behind the curtain at these places, and if you try to, we will stop you from seeing it. Just go about your business elsewhere. These summer camps are fine."

As Stephen Colbert said: No government on the right side of history has ever had to nitpick the definition of the word "cage".

I keep thinking that the current administration cannot sink any lower...and Trump and his cronies surprise me every damned day.

[Aptorian]

I disagree about calling the government Nazis. They're not. They're Americans. They're republicans.

It's important to connect the dots here. This isn't a foreign agent usurping power. This is Americans eroding the trust and integrity of their own country and tgeir fellow Americans.

[QuickTidal]

Alternative Goose, on 20 June 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

I disagree about calling the government Nazis. They're not. They're Americans. They're republicans.

It's important to connect the dots here. This isn't a foreign agent usurping power. This is Americans eroding the trust and integrity of their own country and tgeir fellow Americans.

It's the same thing. Sorry. They are literally putting not just people in camps, but kids. Toddlers in some cases. This after they've been ripped from their parents arms...and will likely never be reunited with them. All because those people, fleeing unrest in their own countries, are crossing into the US at crossings that are called illegal...while Trump has closed the legal borders he claims they are to use instead. It's fucking INSIDIOUS.

This is the low bar. I don't see it any other way. Even if you're not a parent, this should be as scary as the early days of 1930's Germany.

Or what else do you call it when a LAWMAKER in a city can't even get in to even see what's being done to the kids in these concentration camps?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 20 June 2018 - 02:30 PM

[Aptorian]

"This is America".

[Cause]

I would say calling them Nazis is still hyperbole. They are not killing their own citizens or planning to invade mexico, kill all the Mexicans and make space for more Americans.

I think trump would love to be a dictator. I think I once heard him described as Americas first African president and that fits. He despises any limitations on his power. He seems to think if he had unfettered control and permission to govern for life we would all be living in utopia and driving in our flying cars by 2020. This current action is abhorrent, strangest of all though is I doubt it actually serves as a deterrent. Trump bears watching. He needs to be watched. He could become something worse but for the popular uprising in America against the policy (and peoples ability to express those opinions) gives me hope.


That said how deep does the racism in the republican base go? Or how closeted a racist is trump? Right wing racist ideology is surging in Europe at the moment and they are getting votes. America has always had a twp party system essentially. To what extent is is voting republican or democrat hiding the fact that some of these senators are the equivalent of the new dawn party etc

This post has been edited by Cause: 20 June 2018 - 02:54 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 20 June 2018 - 02:45 PM, said:

I would say calling them Nazis is still hyperbole.

Nazi's were still being Nazi's and still detaining people before they were killing them or invading other countries. They did this based on race, and those who interfered with them, or tried to. They pretended like what they are doing was gods work (see Sessions bible "reasoning"). They pretended it was "legal". They separated families, some of whom never united again, regardless of if they were killed or not. They stood in front of their citizens and lied to their faces about what they did behind closed doors. They lied to their faces about the "threats" to the country. Ect.

If it walks like a duck...

Some of the particulars may have changed, and it's happening in a supposedly impenetrable government system of fabled "checks and balances"...but if we don't see any parallels now...when do we see them? When it's too late? I'd rather err on the side of "these people are starting to behave EXACTLY like ones in our world history that we have collectively spent 70 years abhorring" And that's not great.

Moreover I'm incensed by the fact that in 2018, this can happen in a supposedly democratic country founded on the ideals of "give me your tired, poor" ect. or whatever it says on the Statue of Liberty.

Being an asylum seeker is not illegal.

The world is watching, and history will remember.

And let me say that my own prime minster's refusal to denounce this and instead claimed to "not want to get involved politically"...pisses me off also. He's now done three things that might make me vote against him in the next election. We are not covered in glory here either.