[worry]

Some awful language here, but you gotta know this stuff. This is their movement.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 04 March 2017 - 10:16 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 04 March 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 04 March 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

Macros, on 04 March 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Ah a yank is basically more northern states.
Not English but I don't think Limey really pisses englishers off, it's more of a banter thing with the convicts.
I still don't get why it files people up, you're all Americans but whatever. ( Were it separate countries N/S Korea it would be more sensible IMO)

The ugly roots of it are in the South TRYING to become another country. Civil War and all.

Yeah it's a fairly regressive thing afaik "I don't want to be associated with those Yankees"

And it's always given me a mental pic of masturbation which I was never a big fan of anytime I hear it making me cringe.

You know, I realize the Civil War gives the USA a pretty unique history, but fairly hostile regional differences in a large country are not unusual. In India, South Indians loathe a segment of North Indians, as in really really despise them. There are a huge range of reasons, but the sentiments are there.

[EmperorMagus]

Andorion, on 05 March 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

You know, I realize the Civil War gives the USA a pretty unique history, but fairly hostile regional differences in a large country are not unusual. In India, South Indians loathe a segment of North Indians, as in really really despise them. There are a huge range of reasons, but the sentiments are there.

In Iran, there is an entire city full of pedophiles. *


* At least according to my family's city, which is about 1k kms south of the pedophile city. Gay people are commonly called "Qazvini" (from Qazvin) ...

Then you get into the serious tribal disputes, the ethnic disputes, and the geographical disputes ...

Then you look at neighbouring countries which do not have an actual national identity (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan) and you see that most countries are filled with people that hate each other. Other stuff just take precedence over the hate sometimes.

[EmperorMagus]

http://abc13.com/1780782/

And I'm sure some people would say Trump has nothing to do with this.

[worry]

Quite the opposite. It was a very direct denial from the Obama camp. In fact it's not even supposed to be possible -- like legally -- for a president to order a wiretap of anybody. http://www.nbcnews.c...ampaign-n729056

Re: EmperorMagus, I just don't know about that case. Not in a defense of Trump way, but just that racism and violence against women are two things some Americans have excelled at long before Trump's campaign. That article isn't really well written: the author claims the victim spoke to her kids in Arabic, which seems super unlikely given that they're Iranian, and it's kind of a mess all together w/ information.

I'd also like to say Trump doesn't own all of this even among presidents. How much damage did George W Bush do -- even with his seemingly genuine pleas that we weren't at war with Islam -- when he conflated Iraq w/ 9/11. What kind of message did that send to people in terms of how we should treat Muslims? I'm still nauseous from seeing him on TV all week promoting his art book.

That said, Trump is a beneficiary of Bush/Cheney's heinous behavior twice over: he got to rail against them for the wars and he gets to stand on top of the pile of anti-Muslim animosity they generated. Stamp his name on it like he does everything else. And he's definitely built on that, opened Muslims up for target practice more than ever, so you might be right after all w/ that Texas case. Just one state up, in Oklahoma, this just happened: http://www.huffingto...b05cf0f400bebc?

[Cause]

HoosierDaddy, on 04 March 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

Are you surprised?

Can't handle his own stuff so he shifts away. It's automatic. Dude is a narcissist.

Surly this has to catch up to him eventually.

How can the president of the United States have a persecution complex?

[amphibian]

Briar King, on 05 March 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Yes that's why I said I needed to check CNN. Fox just had a quick graphic up saying someone confirmed it. I haven't seen that graphic up again after they got back from break.

James Clapper, the director of national intelligence under Obama (really big deal), said that he didn't know of any FISA wiretap or surveillance on Trump.

Trump is lying again.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 05 March 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Briar King, on 05 March 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Yes that's why I said I needed to check CNN. Fox just had a quick graphic up saying someone confirmed it. I haven't seen that graphic up again after they got back from break.

James Clapper, the director of national intelligence under Obama (really big deal), said that he didn't know of any FISA wiretap or surveillance on Trump.

Trump is lying again.

At this point I would be really interested to see an instace of him not lying.

[worry]

I think I've posted this before long ago, but this is Trump opening that inner door to truth for just a couple minutes...and then just when you're like "he's human after all" he deliberately slams it shut again. He's a lost cause.

[EmperorMagus]

There is this guy on twitter called Chris Arnade.

He calls himself a 'poverty researcher' and he has some interesting theories about the state of America's politics today. I find the stuff he says oddly similar to what apt was saying a couple of pages ago in this thread. Obviously Arnade has a lot more experience with America's poorer cities and he has a deeper understanding of what they are like, but his basic point is the same as Apt's point.

I would be interested in hearing what you guys think about him:

https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade

[Morgoth]

Briar King, on 05 March 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Cause, on 04 March 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Did Trump just seriously accuse Obama of tapping his phone?

If I'm not mistaken Obama admin confirmed it was true. Just got that from Fox snip. Need to check CNN

Well fuck Bordain is on CNN right now. Maybe 🐺 is jumping the gun on it.

From what I understand, it has not only been denied by the Obama administration, but also by the intelligence services and the FBI.

Quote

FBI Director James B. Comey asked the Justice Department this weekend to issue a statement refuting President Trump’s claim that President Barack Obama ordered a wiretap of Trump’s phones before the election, according to U.S. officials, but the department did not do so.

Comey made the request Saturday after Trump accused Obama on Twitter of having his “ ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower.” The White House expanded on Trump’s comments Sunday with a call for a congressional probe of his allegations.

edit: I don't even remember how to do the quote function properly, so here's the link https://www.washingt...m=.34ea56c2cfae

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 06 March 2017 - 12:14 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Wait, so this week, Trump and the Republicans hate and disavow the FBI? So hard to keep up...

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 07 March 2017 - 09:24 AM

[worry]

Their positions aren't principles. Never have been never will be.

On another note, DHS Secretary John Kelly is in fact considering separating immigrant children from their parents as a "deterrent" aka a punitive measure. Actual sinister quote: "They will be well-cared for as we deal with their parents." https://twitter.com/...877868453064704

[Garak]

Wow that sounds evil. Also, hostage taking, really?

[Primateus]

death rattle, on 07 March 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

Their positions aren't principles. Never have been never will be.

On another note, DHS Secretary John Kelly is in fact considering separating immigrant children from their parents as a "deterrent" aka a punitive measure. Actual sinister quote: "They will be well-cared for as we deal with their parents." https://twitter.com/...877868453064704

Oh yeah. That does not at all sound evil. Totally.

[Aptorian]

Sounds like the stuff we did to the Innuits on Greenland in the last century.

[amphibian]

EmperorMagus, on 06 March 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

There is this guy on twitter called Chris Arnade.

He calls himself a 'poverty researcher' and he has some interesting theories about the state of America's politics today. I find the stuff he says oddly similar to what apt was saying a couple of pages ago in this thread. Obviously Arnade has a lot more experience with America's poorer cities and he has a deeper understanding of what they are like, but his basic point is the same as Apt's point.

I would be interested in hearing what you guys think about him:

https://twitter.com/Chris_arnade

A while back, I asked a friend who I respect very much on this kind of thing what he thought about Arnade:

Quote

Me: Arnade is a former Citibank trader who got out a few years ago and then decided to start traveling the country - specifically the really rundown areas of the Flyover States - interviewing people he finds around each town.

He is spending a ton of time getting more written/understood about those who've voted Trump and/or who are in tough situations.

But Bouie repeatedly says Arnade is engaging in apologia and doesn't want to actually call most of these people racist. Arnade has been sniping back and the whole thing has flared up on Twitter several times.

Friend: Without having known what you were going to say, I would agree with Bouie's opinion of him. Like, you can be racist and still have been ruined by Wallstreet for example. I don't read much of Arnade's long tweetstorms, but when he first started blowing up the argument was that he ignored a lot of the racism in those voters. I can't find it, but someone broke down the lack of racism in one of his pieces because he grew up in that town. It may have Kevin Kruse, ah well.

Chris Arnade seems to use the term back-row kids to describe Trump voters, but that sure ignores that Trump voters in the primary had the second highest income behind Cruz voters. You very well could describe an "average" Trump voter as white and from the suburbs too.

I wouldn't say Chris is trying to ignore racism, but he spends an inordinate amount of time humanizing a group of people that are overwhelmingly for punishing people that look different than they do. I don't really need those articles anymore.

And a thing that kind of bothers me about him is that all of this feels like he's trying to buy back his soul for working on Wall Street for two decades.

To add onto this, Arnade does his work primarily by going to fast food places and hangout spots and talking to people who hang out there a bunch. By nature of that, he's not going to talk to those who have no luxury time/are regular day time employed. This means he's going to be talking primarily to old men. That skews his stories. I think Arnade doesn't have the right set of historical contexts or actual "people-finding" skills to get much done of value beyond giving a crowd that's mostly racists, addicts (or family of), and the extremely uneducated a platform to speak.

Arnade wants to see everything in terms of monetary inequality when the reasons for that start sprawling into sociology, laws, history of the country, and in the power of institutions. He's dimly aware of this, but he's not doing much to address the flaws in his approach because that would get in the way of buying his soul back. It's a blinkered view with pretty much the same work product being shoved out again and again, so his writing doesn't do a whole lot for me.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 March 2017 - 02:46 PM

[EmperorMagus]

amphibian, on 07 March 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

To add onto this, Arnade does his work primarily by going to fast food places and hangout spots and talking to people who hang out there a bunch. By nature of that, he's not going to talk to those who have no luxury time/are regular day time employed. This means he's going to be talking primarily to old men. That skews his stories. I think Arnade doesn't have the right set of historical contexts or actual "people-finding" skills to get much done of value beyond giving a crowd that's mostly racists, addicts (or family of), and the extremely uneducated a platform to speak.

Arnade wants to see everything in terms of monetary inequality when the reasons for that start sprawling into sociology, laws, history of the country, and in the power of institutions. He's dimly aware of this, but he's not doing much to address the flaws in his approach because that would get in the way of buying his soul back. It's a blinkered view with pretty much the same work product being shoved out again and again, so his writing doesn't do a whole lot for me.

I have had classes with great anthropology professors, and I look at what he does differently. I think his point is that these people are in a different culture with different values and we can't take a morally absolutist stance against them. Just like it's pointless to go guns blazing into Somalia to stop FGM, it would be useless to go into city X to force racism out. Rather we should try to do it through social and economic reform.

Now, I may not personally agree with his opinions, but I think he is at least partly right. Calling the poor people of "flyover" American states all racists and despicable may not be the best way of bringing about social change. Although I'm really not knowledgeable enough to argue either way.

The point about generalisability and validity of his data is absolutely valid. His methodology seems really suspect at first glance.


Edit: look at the size!

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 08 March 2017 - 03:56 AM

[Andorion]

EmperorMagus, on 08 March 2017 - 03:55 AM, said:

amphibian, on 07 March 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

To add onto this, Arnade does his work primarily by going to fast food places and hangout spots and talking to people who hang out there a bunch. By nature of that, he's not going to talk to those who have no luxury time/are regular day time employed. This means he's going to be talking primarily to old men. That skews his stories. I think Arnade doesn't have the right set of historical contexts or actual "people-finding" skills to get much done of value beyond giving a crowd that's mostly racists, addicts (or family of), and the extremely uneducated a platform to speak.

Arnade wants to see everything in terms of monetary inequality when the reasons for that start sprawling into sociology, laws, history of the country, and in the power of institutions. He's dimly aware of this, but he's not doing much to address the flaws in his approach because that would get in the way of buying his soul back. It's a blinkered view with pretty much the same work product being shoved out again and again, so his writing doesn't do a whole lot for me.

I have had classes with great anthropology professors, and I look at what he does differently. I think his point is that these people are in a different culture with different values and we can't take a morally absolutist stance against them. Just like it's pointless to go guns blazing into Somalia to stop FGM, it would be useless to go into city X to force racism out. Rather we should try to do it through social and economic reform.

Now, I may not personally agree with his opinions, but I think he is at least partly right. Calling the poor people of "flyover" American states all racists and despicable may not be the best way of bringing about social change. Although I'm really not knowledgeable enough to argue either way.

The point about generalisability and validity of his data is absolutely valid. His methodology seems really suspect at first glance.


Edit: look at the size!

It's interesting that you mentioned FGM. I am all for socio-economic reform, but I think there are certain practices so cruel and dehumanizing, an initial hardline stance is also necessary.

[EmperorMagus]

Andorion, on 08 March 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

It's interesting that you mentioned FGM. I am all for socio-economic reform, but I think there are certain practices so cruel and dehumanizing, an initial hardline stance is also necessary.

From a personal moral point of view: I absolutely agree with you. FGM is despicable and people who propagate it should suffer.\

From a practical POV: It's a rite of passage in a lot of the countries it's practiced in. It's well documented that most of the time, the girls actually want to go through with it ... How the hell do we, as the people with western values, go in and tell them that no, you can't do this?