[Cause]

death rattle, on 28 January 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

The fact that Trump's signing came on Holocaust Remembrance Day didn't escape Drake's attention.

"That this can happen on this day is disturbing on so many levels," she said.

"All those times that people said 'never again,' well, we're doing it again. We're turning people away again," she added, referring to U.S. rejection of Jewish refugees prior to World War II.

"Have we not learned from the past?" she said. "It's unreal."

I actually dislike this point. The two do have resonance and it does look bad but either the law is bad on any day or its not. Trumps law by what I have read is definitely targeting Muslims. I understand it specifically makes provisions to help christian Syrians for example. I actually do believe that Muslims, and Muslim apologists do need to look into why radical Islam is such a growing problem. Why Muslims in Australia or Britain would demand Sharia law etc. That said this law is certainly not the solution, not even close.

[Malankazooie]

[EmperorMagus]

Cause, on 28 January 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

I actually dislike this point. The two do have resonance and it does look bad but either the law is bad on any day or its not. Trumps law by what I have read is definitely targeting Muslims. I understand it specifically makes provisions to help christian Syrians for example. I actually do believe that Muslims, and Muslim apologists do need to look into why radical Islam is such a growing problem. Why Muslims in Australia or Britain would demand Sharia law etc. That said this law is certainly not the solution, not even close.

"Why Muslims in Australia or Britain would demand Sharia law?"

Well then, "Why do whites in the US demand nazi laws? We need to look into why being white is such a growing problem!"

Oh Wait! "Muslims" is not one single entity. There are 1.5 billion people in the world that identify as Muslim and each one of them - wait for it- can think! If I wanted to punish all men because one man raped a girl would anyone be okay with it? If I was to punish all white people because one white supremacist went on a rampage and killed 76 people would anyone be okay with it? If an addict stabs someone in the street and I decided to kick every single addict out of the city would that be okay? So why is it okay to assign collective responsibility for terrorists' actions to everyone who identifies as Muslim?

Why is it that when it comes to Muslims, my father should bear responsibility for the crap that an idiot does in Syria - for whatever retarded reason they do their shit - despite the fact that he has nothing to do with it? Why is it my father's responsibility to "look into" why some teenager in a Belgian suburb would decide to move to Syria and start beheading people?

He didn't educate the said teenager, he doesn't like ISIS, he has personally done literally nothing against any law, in Iran or in the US or in Canada. But he's supposed to apologize for the actions of an idiot because he calls himself a Muslim? Is that just? Is that reasonable?

Why should the Syrian Muslim who is fleeing war, who never fought in the war, who just wants food and school for her children and a roof over her head in the cold of the winter be held responsible for what murderers of ISIS are doing? Why should the Baha'i who is living in a constant state of persecution in Iran be denied asylum because an idiot decided to crash a plane into a tower? The Baha'i has not broken any law, she hasn't helped the terrorists or even remotely condoned it, she has done nothing wrong but her hopes are crushed because Donald Trump decided that she should be held accountable for what ISIS is doing.

FFS Baha'is don't even consider themselves Muslims ...

Besides, radical Islam is not a fucking growing problem. You know what IS actually a growing problem? Heart disease (700000 people/yr), cancer (550000/year), strokes, and diabetes are real problems. Even driving accidents are bigger problems than terrorism, Islamic or otherwise (on average 100 people die to cars each year in the US for each person that dies to terrorism). Not to speak of climate change ...

https://i1.wp.com/th...and-dollars.jpg
(Article with sources for the numbers: https://thinkbynumbe...-of-insecurity/)

Terrorism kills on average 300 people a year in the US and they spend 600 billion dollars on it. Cancer kills 700k people and the federal government spends 2 billion on it.

Anyone who says this thing is "to reduce danger to American citizens" is talking bullshit. DJT and his cabinet are a bunch of zenophobic racists that don't want brown people with funny ideas in their country. Anyone who claims that terrorism is a "growing danger" and that the US specifically should go to war/ arm rebels/ get more spying powers over it is talking out of their ass. The US government may want to do these things for other, geopolitical reasons (reasons that don't have good PR); but there is absolutely no need for those actions.

PS. Yeah, I know solving the problems in Syria would be far more effective at providing relief to the refugees. But are you the one whose going to stop the pissing match between Russia and Turkey and Saudi Arabia and the US and Israel that's taking place there? let's assume we convinced DJT to pull out of Syria and completely ignore it, do you think it's possible to convince the king of SA and the leader of Iran and Edrogan and Putin to agree to that as well? Do you think if everyone agrees to pull out the rebels will stop fighting? Accepting refugees, especially in the tiny relative numbers that the US is doing is incredibly easy, and it is downright inhuman to stop even that much.

PS. 2. What does Muslim apologist even mean? People who have the outrageous idea that Muslims are human and should be treated as individuals rather than a homogeneous group? People that think hey! my family is Muslim and they had nothing to do with this shit ... why are we being blamed/punished/persecuted for it? Am I a Muslim apologist?

[Cause]

EmperorMagus, on 28 January 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

"Why Muslims in Australia or Britain would demand Sharia law?"
Well then, "Why do whites in the US demand nazi laws? We need to look into why being white is such a growing problem!"

I debated discussing my point in greater detail but decided not to since we have had this discussion on this forum in great detail elsewhere and I thought it would derail the purpose of this thread. Ill try and explain my views quickly and address some of your points.

Quote

Oh Wait! "Muslims" is not one single entity. There are 1.5 billion people in the world that identify as Muslim and each one of them - wait for it- can think! If I wanted to punish all men because one man raped a girl would anyone be okay with it? If I was to punish all white people because one white supremacist went on a rampage and killed 76 people would anyone be okay with it? If an addict stabs someone in the street and I decided to kick every single addict out of the city would that be okay? So why is it okay to assign collective responsibility for terrorists' actions to everyone who identifies as Muslim?

Why is it that when it comes to Muslims, my father should bear responsibility for the crap that an idiot does in Syria - for whatever retarded reason they do their shit - despite the fact that he has nothing to do with it? Why is it my father's responsibility to "look into" why some teenager in a Belgian suburb would decide to move to Syria and start beheading people?

1.5 Billion is a huge number true and yes they are not all created equally. What percentage of Muslims hold views that I consider abhorrent? I am not sure? 1%, 3% 10% What percentage of Muslims believe that Sharia Law is a good idea,i s a good start. What percentage of Muslims belong to or support Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolla or Al=shabaab?

Your father, and I acknowledge I have never met him and don't know him, to my mind is not responsible for the actions of others. I don't need, expect or want his apology anymore than I want an apology from any Muslim. What I want is an acknowledgment that the problem exists and must be fought. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolla and Al-shabaab all exist and I argue are just the tip of the iceberg. For every Muslim who is an active member of these groups there must be more who support them and enable them. Saudia Arabia and its beliefs are abhorrent to me and it goes to great lengths to export those beliefs and relies on its oil to resist criticism of those beliefs.

Quote

Why should the Syrian Muslim who is fleeing war, who never fought in the war, who just wants food and school for her children and a roof over her head in the cold of the winter be held responsible for what murderers of ISIS are doing? Why should the Baha'i who is living in a constant state of persecution in Iran be denied asylum because an idiot decided to crash a plane into a tower? The Baha'i has not broken any law, she hasn't helped the terrorists or even remotely condoned it, she has done nothing wrong but her hopes are crushed because Donald Trump decided that she should be held accountable for what ISIS is doing.

I actually agreed they shouldn't be. I said the law was abhorrent. However I did say radical Islam was a growing problem and in your offense you seem to have been blinded to the rest of what I said.

Quote

Besides, radical Islam is not a fucking growing problem. You know what IS actually a growing problem? Heart disease (700000 people/yr), cancer (550000/year), strokes, and diabetes are real problems. Even driving accidents are bigger problems than terrorism, Islamic or otherwise (on average 100 people die to cars each year in the US for each person that dies to terrorism). Not to speak of climate change ...

Terrorism kills on average 300 people a year in the US and they spend 600 billion dollars on it. Cancer kills 700k people and the federal government spends 2 billion on it.

Not a growing problem? I'm not american and I don't see things solely from that vantage point. Radical Islam is destroying Syria, its doing horrific damage to east Africa. Its committing acts of terrorism in America, Bali, France and Germany. It denies women and gay people equal rights in Saudi Arabia and Iran. None of this has happened in a vacuum I admit. However we should not turn a blind eye to the problem. Several Muslims from my country have gone to Syria to join ISIS or been stopped at the airport. Twice in the last few months ISIS terrorists and bomb makers have been caught trying to enter my country. There was a news story a year or so ago wherein school teachers at a Muslim school in my country invited radical elements to give a presentation to the students. Obviously we know about the story because many of the parents objected but there was.

There is more to radical Islam than just Islam. Its ethnic traditions and sectarian violence, its politics (them against the west, Middle east vs Israel) spreading into Islam that is partly to blame. Its definitely happening though and it needs to be addressed. Its the Bias of Us vs Them that means the Muslim Student Council of my university objected to a concert by a famous Israeli born (but I think German citizen) piano player but they did allow a plane hijacker to address them instead.

Quote

PS. 2. What does Muslim apologist even mean? People who have the outrageous idea that Muslims are human and should be treated as individuals rather than a homogeneous group? People that think hey! my family is Muslim and they had nothing to do with this shit ... why are we being blamed/punished/persecuted for it? Am I a Muslim apologist?

A Muslim apologist to me are the people who constantly remind us that the majority of Muslims are nice people. I even know it to be true. However you don't put out a burning building by pointing out that the other houses on the street are not on fire.

[amphibian]

Radicalized young men are a huge problem everywhere. The sheer number of mass shootings in the US by tons more non-Muslims than Muslims comprehensively shows this is a phenomenon experienced even in the richest country.

The spread of violent action in the Middle East metastasized with the Saudi funding of radical Wahabbism. That's money handed to them by the Western world and their corrupt power structure (the Saud family) propped up time and again.

The same goes for the wreckage the cartels have left in Mexico and South America. US appetite for drugs drives all this. It's not as simple as blaming the religion itself. Wishing it were that easy is terrible too.

[Itwæs Nom]

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[Macros]

I really don't get why there hasn't been another revolution in the US.

Genuinely

[HoosierDaddy]

Macros, on 28 January 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

I really don't get why there hasn't been another revolution in the US.

Genuinely

A shit ton of dead people? Good reason.

Political revolution? I'm on board with changing some basic things like gerrymandering, strict voter laws, immigration, etc. That being said, the system is, ironically, rigged for conservatives. Trump's talking point about a rigged system were correct, but just in the wrong way. Systematic state restriction on voters and gerrymandering will ensure Republican control of state legislatures for years and years.

[Macros]

well true, I suppose I meant more like fuck the rich white folks in charge of everything type revolution.

the corruption in politics seems to be staggering and bear in mind I don't really follow the news very much and I can see it easily

[HoosierDaddy]

Macros, on 28 January 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

well true, I suppose I meant more like fuck the rich white folks in charge of everything type revolution.

the corruption in politics seems to be staggering and bear in mind I don't really follow the news very much and I can see it easily

Barring an incredibly popular person, money is influence in politics. Citizens United put to bed the option of stopping corporations from funding campaigns themselves, as well as their own private campaigns. That was a terrible blow to our republic. One person one vote is still the same; the amount of money behind each vote is ridiculous.

[Nicodimas]

Macros, on 28 January 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

I really don't get why there hasn't been another revolution in the US.

Genuinely

Interesting and quite short-sighted. Think about it this way. We have a shit ton of nukes. I'm not even going to the economic apocalypse that occurs. The military would be rediculious and could you just for imagine for a moment what DARPA has chilling in the background and all the nasty shit that could be unleashed on the world. If the revolt happens it will be something out of the Dark Tower and the world will move on with John Farson at the helm. Distant echoes is all society would hear as of right now to many factions. Plus the rabbit hole goes much much deeper still.... Could you imagine a Balkanized United States with just Multiple factions and they have missles capable of delivery of Nuke payloads inside what 15 minutes. Reality will always always trump a book.

America needs a good kick in the teeth and I firmly still believe Trump is here to do it. I think we the people will still decide that us empowering the executive branch quite so much, the federal government was never ever the intent. The size of state economies could easily take care of much more, hopefully we get our shit together and make some tough decisions. In a mainly unipolar powered world with a massively powered CIA( etc), economy and military that's decades ahead the US shattered is a terrifying thought....

The support has to be 100% and we aren't even close to it. America has it fing nice. When citizens are starving to death after a economic collapse then that's the more ripe time. Not quite there

[worry]

So you're hoping Trump is like a vaccine? Made of the virus, but beneficial in the long run because of what he will inspire in the body politic? That'd be kinda ironic.

[Nicodimas]

Kinda ? I don't know. My optimism is in the front lately...

.. Short read...

https://libertyblitz...-man-from-1990/

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 28 January 2017 - 09:16 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Nico: What is your ideal system of government? How do we attain it? What would you be willing to sacrifice to achieve it?

[Nicodimas]

If we bomb 5/7 countries , that your now banning, maybe the problem was bombing..I'm not in fan of this at all, but why aren't the Saud's on this list ? Like what.....

this is all dividing tactics they are good at it too.

http://m.huffpost.co...b0230ce61b4b93?

[Macros]

I'm more curious about this

Quote

When citizens are starving to death after a economic collapse then that's the more ripe time. Not quite there

im fairly sure Trumps pandering to the billionaires will ensure that even more americans on the bread line will suffer, is he not currently trying to gut obamacare? ripping affordable healthcare from the most vulnerable?

[worry]

Republicans don't know what the hell they're doing regarding Obamacare specifically or health car generally, period. Among other things, the fact that it is, at its heart, a Republican compromise that happened to gain favor under Obama's admin seems to be making it harder to dismantle than the GOP admits. Trump wants Repeal AND Replace, Congress wants to Repeal regardless (2018 is an election year for them, after all), and none of them want to take the hit that huge swaths of people will lose coverage. Behind the scenes, it's just a hodgepodge of terrible ideas crashing into each other: https://www.washingt...332c_story.html

[EmperorMagus]

I'm going to address your points in red.

Cause, on 28 January 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

I debated discussing my point in greater detail but decided not to since we have had this discussion on this forum in great detail elsewhere and I thought it would derail the purpose of this thread. Ill try and explain my views quickly and address some of your points.

1.5 Billion is a huge number true and yes they are not all created equally. What percentage of Muslims hold views that I consider abhorrent? I am not sure? 1%, 3% 10% What percentage of Muslims believe that Sharia Law is a good idea,i s a good start. What percentage of Muslims belong to or support Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolla or Al=shabaab?

I would say your mistake is talking as if Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al-Shabaab are equivalent organizations. Each one of those organizations has different goals, methods, and demographic support. For example, Hamas is a predominantly nationalistic organization who is defending "the Palestininan people" against "zionist invaders" that have taken over their land (I'm not saying this is a noble cause to have at all, that's another issue). Hezbollah defends the Shia population of Lebanon from the "heretic Sunnis" and "Zionists" that neighbor them. ISIS wants to create a world government of Muslims and rose out of the disgruntled Sunni population (and "retired" Baathi generals) of Iraq after they (the Sunnis) were placed under the rule of the majority Shia Iraqis. These organizations are not all heads of the same monster, each one of them was created for specific reasons by different people. Just because they all have Muslim in their name it doesn't mean that if these people were atheists there would be no Hamas. Of course there would be Hamas, they would just call themselves something else.
Your father, and I acknowledge I have never met him and don't know him, to my mind is not responsible for the actions of others. I don't need, expect or want his apology anymore than I want an apology from any Muslim. What I want is an acknowledgment that the problem exists and must be fought. Al Qaeda, ISIS, Hamas, Hezbolla and Al-shabaab all exist and I argue are just the tip of the iceberg. For every Muslim who is an active member of these groups there must be more who support them and enable them. Saudia Arabia and its beliefs are abhorrent to me and it goes to great lengths to export those beliefs and relies on its oil to resist criticism of those beliefs.

Again, you can't just assume that all those organizations and all the sectarian violence has only one cause, namely the fact that these people call themselves Muslims. Correlation does not mean causation. Muslims that support Al-Qaeda may support them because Al-Qaeda want Sharia law. But I would hypothesize that far more people support Al-Qaeda because Al-Qaeda is the only organization that is fighting the US drones killing their children than people that support Al-Qaeda because of their radical Muslim ideology.
I actually agreed they shouldn't be. I said the law was abhorrent. However I did say radical Islam was a growing problem and in your offense you seem to have been blinded to the rest of what I said. Not a growing problem? I'm not american and I don't see things solely from that vantage point. Radical Islam is destroying Syria, its doing horrific damage to east Africa. Its committing acts of terrorism in America, Bali, France and Germany. It denies women and gay people equal rights in Saudi Arabia and Iran. None of this has happened in a vacuum I admit. However we should not turn a blind eye to the problem. Several Muslims from my country have gone to Syria to join ISIS or been stopped at the airport. Twice in the last few months ISIS terrorists and bomb makers have been caught trying to enter my country. There was a news story a year or so ago wherein school teachers at a Muslim school in my country invited radical elements to give a presentation to the students. Obviously we know about the story because many of the parents objected but there was.

1. It's not radical Islam that is destroying Syria. That is just plain false. The war in Syria started as a war for democracy against a dictator and was going on long before ISIS joined in. Just because war, famine, and instability attract the kind of person that joins ISIS it does not mean that ISIS caused the war.

2. East Africa is one of the poorest places on earth. Their problems are far more widespread than radical Islam, saying that radical Islam is doing horrific damage to east Africa is like historians saying "Christianity tore Europe apart during the second world war." Yeah, the sentence is technically true, but it's irrelevant to the main issue of conflict over resources.

3. Radical Islam (with the exception of the 9/11 attacks) is not an issue in America. It is absolutely and undeniably insignificant. If the US wants to do something about Islamic terrorism they would be far better served by gun laws than make sense than anything done to "solve the Muslim problem". The attacks in France have been an issue in the past year, but compare the scope of harm those attack do and the harm that this sort of rhetoric does...

There is more to radical Islam than just Islam. Its ethnic traditions and sectarian violence, its politics (them against the west, Middle east vs Israel) spreading into Islam that is partly to blame. Its definitely happening though and it needs to be addressed. Its the Bias of Us vs Them that means the Muslim Student Council of my university objected to a concert by a famous Israeli born (but I think German citizen) piano player but they did allow a plane hijacker to address them instead.

1. Ethnic traditions and sectarian violence: These don't need Islam. They have existed before and still exist in places without Muslims. Ethnic traditions and sectarianism cannot be used to explain the violence by themselves. Do you know why? Because the people in Europe hated each other and were sectarian in 1915 and 1939 and they had hated each other for millenia beforehand. But they aren't fighting each other right now ... Someone who cites religion, ethnic traditions, or sectarianism as the main cause for a conflict or terrorism is being lazy and disingenuous. These things are far more complicated than that, and making the issue simple is dishonest.

2. The "them against the west" politics is entirely natural and I would argue, fair. After all, western capitalism has been looting every single thing that is valuable in any single one of those countries for as long as they remember. Do you expect them to like it? When US companies are profiting of Iraqi oil but the US government thinks Iraqis aren't human enough to be worth the right of asylum, do you expect the Iraqis to like the US?

A Muslim apologist to me are the people who constantly remind us that the majority of Muslims are nice people. I even know it to be true. However you don't put out a burning building by pointing out that the other houses on the street are not on fire.

On that note:

https://thinkprogres...2a7a#.d7soppn8a

[worry]

This isn't a response to the Cause/EM discussion per se, I just want to point out that Trump's executive order banned citizens of certain Muslim majority countries, most severely Syria (indefinitely), but it also banned ALL refugees from EVERYWHERE for 120 days. And if you think these orders aren't going to be extended, you haven't been listening.

Thinking of these anti-Muslim immigrant bans as separate from The Wall & other immigration policy is a big mistake. This isn't about radical Islam, it's about making and keeping brown people scary. Steve Bannon is a Nazi who wants to reverse the "browning" of America and has found convenient scapegoats in the usual places, and a willing (or otherwise easily convinced) partner in Donald J. Trump.

Spoiler

Edit: Not saying DJT doesn't also pee himself in fear daily, thinking about terrorists. Or that he doesn't hope -- in his own puerile way -- to "destroy ISIS".
Save

This post has been edited by death rattle: 29 January 2017 - 01:56 AM

[EmperorMagus]

https://www.theguard...executive-order


A US federal judge stopped the deportations for now.