[HoosierDaddy]

The Mueller Report spells out that even if it was overwhelming evidence that there was attempted conspiracy (not "collusion", collusion is not a crime, conspiracy/attempt are), because the FBI can't indict a sitting president via policy it would never even be hinted at. Thus the lies of Barr that there was "no collusion", when it says neither proves nor exonerates the White House.

So, it never really mattered whether or not "attempted or conspiracy" to commit crimes with Russia were found. But, broadly, yes a criminal attempt (which requires substantial steps which I referred to above to meet) is a crime.

[amphibian]

D, on 19 April 2019 - 01:39 AM, said:

Aptorian, on 18 April 2019 - 08:29 PM, said:

amphibian, on 18 April 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 18 April 2019 - 05:23 PM, said:

Eh, was drunk when he made that comment, he probably meant to type "I love you". The letters are right next to each other.

I would like it if you engaged with the remainder of my post and the facts there.

amphibian, on 18 April 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 15 April 2019 - 04:09 PM, said:

Is that what you think Nico is?

He is an extreme libertarian who is worried about end of nation state geopolitics and pops up here to enthusiastically cheer for fascist, racist policies as "good business" and called us Malazan forum people sub-human trash.

He has told us for years who he is and if you haven't picked up on this by now, then you don't really come from a place where you can question other people's evaluations of him.

I'm not sure what Nico is but neither am I sure he knows what he is.

If you've paid attention to his posting history you'll have noticed that he seems to vacilate, from an extreme to normalcy in a matter of days. From a doomsday prepper, to teabagger, to anti-corporation, now he's posting Breitbart garbage and simultaneously posting religious nonsense in the happy thread. And other times he just posts normal person stuff.

Dudes gone off several ideological cliffs in short time.

Nico seems to either be a master level troll or a deeply confused person with little to no ability to analyse sources. There's a reason why people have suspected he was a forum alt for ages. Personally I think Nico is more benign than this, when he has the energy for it, I think he likes to post his articles and viewpoints in here because it pushes your buttons.

I've said this numerous times now, in this very thread, if Nico really has gone full trumptard, you shouldn't shun him and you shouldn't judge him. You should study him.

This forum is more or less a clean room. It's a safe space for debate. You can poke and prod him and try to figure out what makes him tick because there's millions of Nico's in America that don't think or act the way you want them to.

Personally I find him fascinating. Sometimes he pisses me off but he's very entertaining to follow.

And not, as far as I can recall, ever expressed racist or homophobic sentiments? (Which were part of Obdigore's original comment on the matter)

This is completely deluded.

Nicodimas has popped up cheering in support of every racist and exclusionary immigration policy possible that Trump and Steven Miller have offered. He's talked extensively about the drugs and crime that immigrants, particularly Mexicans, always bring to his area of the country and so on.

He's hailed all kinds of things Trump does with China as genius level moves when they're shithead moves done with a strong flavor of bigotry.

I didn't say Nicodimas was homophobic, but he's still supporting strongly an administration that is.

Also this is not a clean room. I am not dissecting another human being. There are real world effects of someone being that racist and real world effects to treating them like a lab animal. I want neither of those things present in my environment.

[amphibian]

Racist people aren't usually caricatures like the publicly open Klansmen that the cable news occasionally talk about. They can like the same books you do, play boardgames all the time, crochet, and all that. All while cheering on the withholding of children from their parents at the border for years because the dirty immigrants deserve it. They can ignore completely the anti brown people ethos of Presidental administration because it's not a problem that affects them and thus isn't important.

Nicodimas has said racist things on here and if you look through his post history, you'll find them. If you still believe he hasn't, then you aren't listening well enough.

[Aptorian]

But you're living in that environment called America, and unfortunately because your republic pretends to have a representative democracy, people with Nico's beliefs will continue to be important.

You can't just shut him out. You can't just ignore him. Because that doesn't change anything. Better to look at what Nico posts and what he says to understand the mindset and the methodology. Nico is a first and second tier source to Trump's America and the fringes of the far right. You can sample the strange worldview straight from the vine.

And I'll add that I think you're again, like Obdigore did above, attaching more malevolence to Nico's posts than is actually warranted. Maybe I've missed some of his posts but for example, when Nico has posted about immigration, you're hearing Breitbart and Fox News talking points coming out of him. Nico just regurgitates what ever propaganda he is fed.

There may be a racist motivation behind such policy but I don't have an impression that is Nico's own belief. It's salvation sold under the guise of the caravans are coming and immigrants have taken our jobs. And why not increase security and control the flow of people over the border... Then America will be great again.

Nico is a politically desperate man with no solid ideological stand point.

Or he's a troll.

Or a Russian asset.

I get confused.

[amphibian]

I don't need to understand further his viewpoint. I already do so and most likely understand the roots of it better than he does from a macro level.

You seem to think that I do not understand Nicodimas, when I deal with people like him on a regular basis. I work as an attorney for people with disabilities and it turns out that there are thousands of people like him in New York in roles that specifically touch upon the lives of my clients - who are often non white people also. I deal with the active and passive effects of people like Nicodimas just about every week. I do lots of reading on Jim Crow, on the crushing of labor unions in America, on the demonization if immigrants, and even majored in Middle Eastern history because I really wanted to know how US and UK foreign policy screwed up that part of the world so badly, which gives me a strong framework to understand better Asia specific policy, especially as it relates to China and the South Asian countries my family comes from. I spent a lot of time between 2004 and 2012 reading the histories of countries and how several sets of bad diplomatic actors wrecked huge areas of the globe for so long.

I put in a ton of work to get where I am, I have a small degree of expertise in this area, and you're refusing to hear the dog whistles or saying that I need to treat him like an experiment. I don't want to do any of that and it also feels wrong to do.

The stakes are lower for you who don't live here and deal with the full plethora of problems we're talking about. That means you telling me that this guy doesn't know what he's doing is completely missing the mark - the end result is essentially the same: bigoted policies get amplified and supported by him over and over.

[Obdigore]

Aptorian, on 19 April 2019 - 01:27 PM, said:

But you're living in that environment called America, and unfortunately because your republic pretends to have a representative democracy, people with Nico's beliefs will continue to be important.

You can't just shut him out. You can't just ignore him. Because that doesn't change anything. Better to look at what Nico posts and what he says to understand the mindset and the methodology. Nico is a first and second tier source to Trump's America and the fringes of the far right. You can sample the strange worldview straight from the vine.

And I'll add that I think you're again, like Obdigore did above, attaching more malevolence to Nico's posts than is actually warranted. Maybe I've missed some of his posts but for example, when Nico has posted about immigration, you're hearing Breitbart and Fox News talking points coming out of him. Nico just regurgitates what ever propaganda he is fed.

There may be a racist motivation behind such policy but I don't have an impression that is Nico's own belief. It's salvation sold under the guise of the caravans are coming and immigrants have taken our jobs. And why not increase security and control the flow of people over the border... Then America will be great again.

Nico is a politically desperate man with no solid ideological stand point.

Or he's a troll.

Or a Russian asset.

I get confused.

No, I don't think you understand. We know how/why these people come to believe the things they do. We don't need another case study into it.

We also don't need to tolerate it.

America has had a problem for a while now of not calling a cow a cow. We call racists 'economically nervous'.

Read what Amphibian is writing. He is straight on the money. Nico espousing policies/politicians that are inherently racist shows that he supports racism. He doesn't need to come out and say 'fucking (slur here), stealing all my women/jobs/drugs/dogs/barbed wire', because he knows what he means, and he espouses that ideal in the stories and places he presents as 'news'.

You're sitting here waiting for the Fascist to say 'I'm a Fascist', while they implement inherently fascist policies but don't actually come out and say it.

Since we're in the discussions forum, here is some reading material for you:

https://en.wikipedia...histle_politics
http://people.umass...._conference.pdf

Its friday, so I'll be giving you the test on monday

[Illuyankas]

It doesn't have to be deliberately malevolent to cause real harm.

Also don't trust the Dems to fix anything.

[D'rek]

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

[Obdigore]

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Since this is the USA politics thread, you must be saying you voted Democrat once, right?

Since they are conservative and the GOP is regressive?

[D'rek]

Obdigore, on 22 April 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Since this is the USA politics thread, you must be saying you voted Democrat once, right?

Since they are conservative and the GOP is regressive?

Conservatives are the Canadian right-wing party. Not as extreme as the Republicans, but there's certainly some overlap.

[QuickTidal]

D, on 22 April 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 22 April 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Since this is the USA politics thread, you must be saying you voted Democrat once, right?

Since they are conservative and the GOP is regressive?

Conservatives are the Canadian right-wing party. Not as extreme as the Republicans, but there's certainly some overlap.

Not for lack of trying either (See: Doug Ford), but at least our system is not as completely broken as the one in the States.

As Apt said further upthread, the US only "pretends to have a representative democracy" while doing everything they can (as a people) to make sure it's not any such thing.

[amphibian]

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Is this the entirety of your response to the discussion of Nicodimas's stated positions on this board?

I do not think anyone is saying you are a racist or a homophobic person. However, you are currently ~kinda~ insisting that someone who has vocally supported many extremely racist policies cannot be called out for those racist actions.

Aptorian has pointed out that these positions are common in groups who heavily follow InfoWars or Alex Jones or Tucker Carlson etc. That's true and they are also racist positions to take because of the racist reasons they have publicly stated to justify those positions.

I understand the reluctance to say that a person on this forum or in real life is being racist, but it is abundantly clear that Nicodimas is being that level of racist in his continuing support for the Trump/GOP proposed policies and actions.

Briar King voted for Trump and has since made dozens of posts talking about how he can't abide the acts of racism or idiocy that the president has done. It is entirely possible to have voted for a person and then disavow what they do when in office while working to ensure that a better person gets in next.

[Obdigore]

D, on 22 April 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 22 April 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Since this is the USA politics thread, you must be saying you voted Democrat once, right?

Since they are conservative and the GOP is regressive?

Conservatives are the Canadian right-wing party. Not as extreme as the Republicans, but there's certainly some overlap.

I'd suggest Canadian Conservatives are more akin to the older Democrats.

Remember that the US has literally no major liberal party. It is conservative and regressive, and those are the shitty choices because of a shitty system.

[D'rek]

Obdigore, on 22 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

D, on 22 April 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 22 April 2019 - 12:27 PM, said:

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Since this is the USA politics thread, you must be saying you voted Democrat once, right?

Since they are conservative and the GOP is regressive?

Conservatives are the Canadian right-wing party. Not as extreme as the Republicans, but there's certainly some overlap.

I'd suggest Canadian Conservatives are more akin to the older Democrats.

Remember that the US has literally no major liberal party. It is conservative and regressive, and those are the shitty choices because of a shitty system.

Well, I don't know what the "older Democrats" were like, but why mince words? Call a cow a cow, as you said. The Conservative Party's platforms over the last several elections has included trumpeting exclusionary immigration changes and they have largely not been in favour of the advancement of gay rights in this country. I tacitly supported that administration by voting for them, in other words I am (or was) espousing policies and politicians that are inherently racist and homophobic, and hence I support racism and homophobia.

amphibian, on 22 April 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

D, on 20 April 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

Well, I voted conservative once so I guess I'm a racist and homophobe then.

Is this the entirety of your response to the discussion of Nicodimas's stated positions on this board?

Of course not. It's a provocative statement that will engender further discussion.

amphibian, on 22 April 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

I do not think anyone is saying you are a racist or a homophobic person.

I am. Or, at least, I'm speculating on it. Perhaps it is like the adage of "people who are crazy don't know they're crazy" ... maybe I *am* racist and don't realize it, myself? And if we define it as "taking any action to support an administration/organization which itself commits racist acts, regardless of personal motive" then I unequivocally am.

amphibian, on 22 April 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

However, you are currently ~kinda~ insisting that someone who has vocally supported many extremely racist policies cannot be called out for those racist actions.

Or, conversely, it's fine to call those out and I'm putting myself out there to get called out next? I dunno.

amphibian, on 22 April 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

Aptorian has pointed out that these positions are common in groups who heavily follow InfoWars or Alex Jones or Tucker Carlson etc. That's true and they are also racist positions to take because of the racist reasons they have publicly stated to justify those positions.

In this day and age, those people are the modern "caricatures of klansmen" you described, though. And like you said, there must be plenty of people who aren't so obvious but are the same in consequence. And I'm one of them.

amphibian, on 22 April 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

I understand the reluctance to say that a person on this forum or in real life is being racist, but it is abundantly clear that Nicodimas is being that level of racist in his continuing support for the Trump/GOP proposed policies and actions.

Right. He's supporting the administration that is committing racist acts. We don't really know his underlying motivation or personal beliefs in any particular detail, but that doesn't matter, all that matters is the facts that he is supporting the administration vocally here.

[HoosierDaddy]

The hell has happened to this thread?

Can we get back to politics and not personal shit?

[Aptorian]

Amphibian and D'reks debate is at the heart of US politics. What does it mean to vote for or support a political party?

[HoosierDaddy]

No, a lot of that shit is about Nico.

That is worthless.

[Studlock]

Nico is clearly on the libertarian-to-fascist pipeline which has had, lets say, oversized effect on American politics in the last four or so years. Before most Republicans were fine playing the game of 'civility' with establishment Dems, even if it was only ever the veneer of civility, but now most of them are completely mask-offs. Extreme anti-immigration measures that will lead to ethnic cleansing supported. Craven tax cuts for the super rich just because. Overt, and violent, xenophobic zeal. Even a crooked and corrupted distrust of 'elites' that completely misses the point of the problem of a political elite in favouring of coding them as black or gay.

Nico, or at least the type of person Nico represents, is extremely important to politics in America (unless, of course, you think politics is just two teams playing a game, which is an incredibly stupid way to think about politics, politics is about organizing power). The personal, of course, is political, for most people in which the personal is medium in which the political engages them on (I'm personally poor, and im native, so that means living in a system that punishes poor people for their poverty, and living in a settler-colonial state that at best wants to forget the genocide that empowered them, and at worst want to celebrate them). Understanding Nico is extremely important to understand the politics at play right in the right, and he has slowly descended into basically excepting fascist policies, and the exact opposite of his old (as of three years ago) libertarian framework, but that is by-and-large, the meaty center of Trump's political base, the people who'll never say no to Trumps actions.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 23 April 2019 - 04:20 AM

[QuickTidal]

Tangential:Link to Netflix AOC doc from Sundance. Looks great!

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 April 2019 - 03:45 PM

[worry]

That looks so inspiring (and also, knowing some of the other outcomes, perhaps maddening -- but that's probably valuable too).

On the 2020 horse race tip, I am so impressed with Liz Warren. I can't overstate how nice it would be to have a policy wonk of her extraordinary facility, w/ a seemingly genuine & fearless will to actually do good with it, steering the conversation. Debt cancellation, boosting funding to HBCs, the ultra-millionaire tax, she's on board with the green new deal, pro-impeachment, immediate to defend Ilhan Omar, she's ahead of Bernie (and even AOC, for that matter) on reparations, she consistently wrecks CEOs (as much as they can be) during hearings, and who knows what the CFPB could accomplish with her as prez. I'm not planning to decide who of the only two worthwhile candidates to vote forany time soon, necessarily, but she's definitely earned a campaign donation or two already.

Anyway, this world is a hell, so she's trailing a lot of people at the moment, and the fact that she's so good at the wonk stuff makes her less appealing to mainstream media. Also SCOTUS is set to screw over a lot of people, from land-mining the census to depress 'blue' population respondants, to LGBTQ civil rights protections. Also, a white supremacist militia is patrolling the border, pretending to be CBP, in order to hold immigrants at gun point and order them around.