[HoosierDaddy]

Shinrei, on 07 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

I sympathize, Shin. But, we need to elaborate more.

To solve the deficit we have to do at least one of the following: Cut spending or raise revenue.

What sort of elaboration you want?

And I am fine with changing the "or" in your last sentence to "and". Negotiation is good.

First, my elaboration followed. It didn't really elaborate further than clarifying the problems.

Second, I'm fine with that as well. I don't want to play political games, but I think you'll find many Dems/liberals are ready to go but when revenue is off the board that's kind of a non-starter for any true negotiation.

[HoosierDaddy]

Specifically, I think these are some areas where we can look at to reduce the budget:

1. Defense. Commie socialist liberal that I am, I think we can probably reduce some of the outstanding projects and overall R and D some, without hurting fighting effectiveness.
2. Education. We can probably kill some overhead here, but without taking away from funding actual school programs and struggling schools.
3. Energy. Kill oil and clean coal subsidies.
4. Soc Sec. Means test. I'm for it to a certain percentage of cost. Raise age to 67 starting in 2017.

Edit: Changed Medicare to Soc. Sec. I'm for single payer.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 07 November 2012 - 02:17 PM

[Illuyankas]

I kind of want the Republicans to go full hardcore right as far as possible, do so appallingly bad that they almost self-destruct as a party, and then (and here is the important part that isn't as certain as the first two) realise that going superconservative is flat out not working and attempt to swing back. Hey, the last part might happen, you never know.

[amphibian]

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

1. Defense. Commie socialist liberal that I am, I think we can probably reduce some of the outstanding projects and overall R and D some, without hurting fighting effectiveness.

There is enormous room for cutting defense programs and for preventing the type of mission creep, technology stuffing and design lunacy that turned the B-1 bomber from a budgeted $25 million per plane to a $283 million per plane project. The planes were also useless during the first US Gulf war - which was supposed to be their time to shine and in the subsequent campaigns, it wasn't used until after the bombing runs of the B-52 planes it was supposed to replace because they're such shitty, high maintenance planes.

I've just finished a re-read of a Robert Coram book (Boyd), which has me disposed a certain way, but the Pentagon R&D process is beyond broken. The F-35 is showing signs of being full of stupid things too. An article just hit yesterday about the designer telling us it will supposedly get stealthier as it ages - despite the demonstrated and provable fact that every other plane ever made has gotten less stealthy as it ages. The same goes for the boats the Navy wants, tanks/armored vehicles and that stupid missile defense thing.

There's so much that could be cut - but because there are jobs and big corporate campaign funds and future positions with these companies associated with the R&D process, no Congressperson can stay strong and cut the fat for long.

[QuickTidal]

Illuyankas, on 07 November 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I kind of want the Republicans to go full hardcore right as far as possible, do so appallingly bad that they almost self-destruct as a party, and then (and here is the important part that isn't as certain as the first two) realise that going superconservative is flat out not working and attempt to swing back. Hey, the last part might happen, you never know.

It would indeed be nice to see this happen and perhaps snap the party back to at least SOME of its roots. I mean it's either that or the left gets lefter and the right gets righter and the country is always split too much to go forward in any collective or successful way.

[Illuyankas]

To be fair though the left could get lefter pretty easily regardless of what the right does.

[Khellendros]

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

332 would be far more than I thought Obama would get.

Their organization is just astounding.

Trust in Nate.


I saw Michele Bachmann managed to hold on though, 4,000 votes more in the end. Ah well.


Have to broadly agree with Shin's depressing(pragmatic?) assessment, though.

[Gnaw]

How long before a mega-church blames the loss as God's 'anger' over nominating a Mormon?

I give it 3 weeks max.

[worry]

I'm not necessarily into the schadenfreude (okay, maybe I am, just a little) -- but there's lots to celebrate here for everybody: http://2012.talkingp...onald-trump.php

[Terez]

I have been making myself watch Fox the last couple of days during commercials. I should do that more often.

There was a black Republican woman on last night (or early this morning) talking about how to get black people to vote Republican. And she made the right arguments, basically that black people tend to be very religious and you have to get them to 'vote their values', and there was some general table conversation about how the GOP had to learn not to alienate minorities. Anyway, later on I was watching MSNBC and they were talking about how 'let Detroit go bankrupt' and the Jeep ad were really killers for Romney, especially in Ohio where the election was nominally decided. Then I flipped back to Fox during a commercial and the same people were there, and they were talking about the same thing as MSNBC. The black lady said that they should have tried to talk about 'you didn't build that' more, that this resonates with people, and the moderator of the discussion pulls up some numbers, and says 'but look, it didn't actually resonate with people at all.' And she says, 'that's just my opinion'. It was an awkward moment. And so emblematic of why Romney lost.

[RodeoRanch]

Congrats on voting for the lesser of two weevils!

[Illuyankas]

So Romney's campaign accidentally launched their president transition website and someone managed to get some screenshots before it went down.

Also my favourite detail from the night is that Romney never wrote a concession speech.

[Terez]

Yeah, that detail was floating around yesterday (the lack of a concession speech). I'm not so sure it's true; I think they just said that to keep confidence up.

Also, I wonder what it was like during that hour and a half between Ohio being called and Romney conceding. I have a feeling that McCain and Karl Rove were both in Romney's ear, and Romney did the smart thing and went with the McCain faction. Just a feeling.

[Obdigore]

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Specifically, I think these are some areas where we can look at to reduce the budget:

1. Defense. Commie socialist liberal that I am, I think we can probably reduce some of the outstanding projects and overall R and D some, without hurting fighting effectiveness.
2. Education. We can probably kill some overhead here, but without taking away from funding actual school programs and struggling schools.
3. Energy. Kill oil and clean coal subsidies.
4. Soc Sec. Means test. I'm for it to a certain percentage of cost. Raise age to 67 starting in 2017.

Edit: Changed Medicare to Soc. Sec. I'm for single payer.

My changes:

1) Tax Changes -> Let the bush era tax cuts expire. Tax capital gains at the same level as regular income. Donating to churches no longer counts as a tax break for donating to charitable organizations.
2) Defense Spending -> Close down 1/3rd of our overseas bases, especially the glut we have in Japan. Take all the Military R&D spending and shuffle it over to NASA. Task NASA with getting us into the asteroid belt by 2030 and doing it securely. The US is currently planning on replacing its 10 supercarriers over the next 15 years with new models. Why do we need 10? If we stop being TEAM AMERICA, we don't need more than five to secure our nations and be able to help our allies if needed.
3) Education -> We need to move away from low paying manufacturing jobs that we cannot compete with other countries with much lower standards of living. We need to increase Science and Maths educations, and move to a government funded Uni/College system for citizens of Average and higher intelligence.
4) Energy -> Invest in Nuclear Power while it is the cleanest and best way of deriving energy. Invest in research into Solar, Wind, and Geothermal. Hope NASA figures out Cold Fusion. I agree that the oil and coal subsidies need to end.
5) End the War on Drugs. Decriminalize everything, Legalize and Tax Weed, Acid, and Shrooms.
6) Legalize Prostitution. Prostitutes must be tested for diseases every 2 weeks and setup the DEA to make sure there is no sexual slavery and that the people doing the prostitution are willing. Make sure the prostitutes take home at least 65% of their fees.
7) Offer temperary military help to mexico to wipe out, with extreme prejudice, the drug cartels. The legalization of weed and the military assault on these organizations should be enough to end them. If we help make northern mexico livable, we should have less of an illegal immigration problem
8) Change Immigration. All first world countries thrive on immigration. A capitalist society needs to continue to grow, and as a country catches up with technological advancements and abandons religion the average children of a couple goes down to just under 2. Immigration is key. We need to make it easier for intelligent and motivated people to immigrate to this country. But we need to find a way to spread them out instead of having them live in large enclaves and be semi-absent from US society as a whole.
9) Offer Taiwan the chance to become an US protectorate. It is currently technically (according to the US military) under US military control after the end of WW2 and is not an independent country. This will also possibly bring things with China to a head, when the US has a clear military and logistics advantage.

That is all for now.

[Terez]

Daily Show tweeted this the instant the show was over:

Five Minutes of Zen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuT15bo3iP8 … #DailyShow

I tweeted mid-show that this one was a must-see for conservatives. Guest was, of course, Nate Silver. (I'm glad Daily won the post-election appearance; if I'm not mistaken that was his first appearance today.) Also, as we told people repeatedly, Silver's numbers were actually too conservative for Obama because Silver was really worried about being seen as biased. So he had a few factors in his model that were favorable to Romney, and he waited until the last minute to call Florida for Obama. He even suggested a couple of weeks out that Obama might should concede Florida. Princeton PEC was much more favorable for Obama, but they missed Florida:

Sam Wang said:

As I wrote late last night, Florida is a hard case. Several new polls came out this morning, making the median basically zero. As a tie-breaker I resorted to mean-based statistics. I will be unsurprised for it to go either way. Nate Silver and Drew Linzer went the other way. We are all tossing coins. I am prepared to lose the coin toss.

This post has been edited by Terez: 08 November 2012 - 04:50 AM

[LinearPhilosopher]

Obdigore, on 08 November 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Specifically, I think these are some areas where we can look at to reduce the budget:

1. Defense. Commie socialist liberal that I am, I think we can probably reduce some of the outstanding projects and overall R and D some, without hurting fighting effectiveness.
2. Education. We can probably kill some overhead here, but without taking away from funding actual school programs and struggling schools.
3. Energy. Kill oil and clean coal subsidies.
4. Soc Sec. Means test. I'm for it to a certain percentage of cost. Raise age to 67 starting in 2017.

Edit: Changed Medicare to Soc. Sec. I'm for single payer.

My changes:

1) Tax Changes -> Let the bush era tax cuts expire. Tax capital gains at the same level as regular income. Donating to churches no longer counts as a tax break for donating to charitable organizations.
2) Defense Spending -> Close down 1/3rd of our overseas bases, especially the glut we have in Japan. Take all the Military R&D spending and shuffle it over to NASA. Task NASA with getting us into the asteroid belt by 2030 and doing it securely. The US is currently planning on replacing its 10 supercarriers over the next 15 years with new models. Why do we need 10? If we stop being TEAM AMERICA, we don't need more than five to secure our nations and be able to help our allies if needed.
3) Education -> We need to move away from low paying manufacturing jobs that we cannot compete with other countries with much lower standards of living. We need to increase Science and Maths educations, and move to a government funded Uni/College system for citizens of Average and higher intelligence.
4) Energy -> Invest in Nuclear Power while it is the cleanest and best way of deriving energy. Invest in research into Solar, Wind, and Geothermal. Hope NASA figures out Cold Fusion. I agree that the oil and coal subsidies need to end.
5) End the War on Drugs. Decriminalize everything, Legalize and Tax Weed, Acid, and Shrooms.
6) Legalize Prostitution. Prostitutes must be tested for diseases every 2 weeks and setup the DEA to make sure there is no sexual slavery and that the people doing the prostitution are willing. Make sure the prostitutes take home at least 65% of their fees.
7) Offer temperary military help to mexico to wipe out, with extreme prejudice, the drug cartels. The legalization of weed and the military assault on these organizations should be enough to end them. If we help make northern mexico livable, we should have less of an illegal immigration problem
8) Change Immigration. All first world countries thrive on immigration. A capitalist society needs to continue to grow, and as a country catches up with technological advancements and abandons religion the average children of a couple goes down to just under 2. Immigration is key. We need to make it easier for intelligent and motivated people to immigrate to this country. But we need to find a way to spread them out instead of having them live in large enclaves and be semi-absent from US society as a whole.
9) Offer Taiwan the chance to become an US protectorate. It is currently technically (according to the US military) under US military control after the end of WW2 and is not an independent country. This will also possibly bring things with China to a head, when the US has a clear military and logistics advantage.

That is all for now.

1) Churches are NPOs the same as any other, excluding them from donations makes no sense. What about NPOs with religious affiliation, you going to cut them too based on this logic? Its a taxable deduction because it's a way to encite people to give money. If it's Cap gain, raise the rate yes (50-75% range works for us just fine), but it shouldn't be 100% aside from the fact it severely hurts most investments models the gain/loss does not reflect any change in value due to inflation. Here's an idea, raise personal tax rates, create more higher income tax brackets and lower your corporate tax rate. That'll solve many of your revenue issues. Corporate tax rates are a formality more then anything else, since any income earned by a corp eventually filters out (employment income, business income, property income, cap gain etc). They give rise to issues of double taxation which are a pain to account for.

3)and what about those who can't work in these high tech industries eh? Not everyone can be a mathematician, a scientist etc. There needs to be employment for people of all levels else they become a drag on the economy and hold everyone back. Manufacturing domestically accomplishes this goal. Yeah you don't get to take advantage of economic advantages but if a larger % of your people are employed it's an overall net gain. Unless of course you wanna go full socialism at which point by all means yes let's only employ a few and have everyone else live off that wealth.

5) end the war of drugs yes, decriminalizing everything? that's a step to far man. There are some substances you do not want people on period. Some substances should not be legally purchased.

6) Legalising prostitution may actually help some of these poor women (or men) so i'd be down. Working conditions for prosititues in places like holland are sligthly better from what i hear.

7)that's one helluva can of worms you're thinking of opening. At the same time didn't you also sya you wanted lesser military expenditures. Bit of a contradiction there. I know you said short-term but let's be realistic wars rarely happen the way you plan them to be, usually end up lasting longer then anticipated.

9) yes, let's give imperialism a whirl again, We all know how well that ended.

[Obdigore]

BalrogLord, on 08 November 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Obdigore, on 08 November 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 07 November 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Specifically, I think these are some areas where we can look at to reduce the budget:

1. Defense. Commie socialist liberal that I am, I think we can probably reduce some of the outstanding projects and overall R and D some, without hurting fighting effectiveness.
2. Education. We can probably kill some overhead here, but without taking away from funding actual school programs and struggling schools.
3. Energy. Kill oil and clean coal subsidies.
4. Soc Sec. Means test. I'm for it to a certain percentage of cost. Raise age to 67 starting in 2017.

Edit: Changed Medicare to Soc. Sec. I'm for single payer.

My changes:

1) Tax Changes -> Let the bush era tax cuts expire. Tax capital gains at the same level as regular income. Donating to churches no longer counts as a tax break for donating to charitable organizations.
2) Defense Spending -> Close down 1/3rd of our overseas bases, especially the glut we have in Japan. Take all the Military R&D spending and shuffle it over to NASA. Task NASA with getting us into the asteroid belt by 2030 and doing it securely. The US is currently planning on replacing its 10 supercarriers over the next 15 years with new models. Why do we need 10? If we stop being TEAM AMERICA, we don't need more than five to secure our nations and be able to help our allies if needed.
3) Education -> We need to move away from low paying manufacturing jobs that we cannot compete with other countries with much lower standards of living. We need to increase Science and Maths educations, and move to a government funded Uni/College system for citizens of Average and higher intelligence.
4) Energy -> Invest in Nuclear Power while it is the cleanest and best way of deriving energy. Invest in research into Solar, Wind, and Geothermal. Hope NASA figures out Cold Fusion. I agree that the oil and coal subsidies need to end.
5) End the War on Drugs. Decriminalize everything, Legalize and Tax Weed, Acid, and Shrooms.
6) Legalize Prostitution. Prostitutes must be tested for diseases every 2 weeks and setup the DEA to make sure there is no sexual slavery and that the people doing the prostitution are willing. Make sure the prostitutes take home at least 65% of their fees.
7) Offer temperary military help to mexico to wipe out, with extreme prejudice, the drug cartels. The legalization of weed and the military assault on these organizations should be enough to end them. If we help make northern mexico livable, we should have less of an illegal immigration problem
8) Change Immigration. All first world countries thrive on immigration. A capitalist society needs to continue to grow, and as a country catches up with technological advancements and abandons religion the average children of a couple goes down to just under 2. Immigration is key. We need to make it easier for intelligent and motivated people to immigrate to this country. But we need to find a way to spread them out instead of having them live in large enclaves and be semi-absent from US society as a whole.
9) Offer Taiwan the chance to become an US protectorate. It is currently technically (according to the US military) under US military control after the end of WW2 and is not an independent country. This will also possibly bring things with China to a head, when the US has a clear military and logistics advantage.

That is all for now.

1) Churches are NPOs the same as any other, excluding them from donations makes no sense. What about NPOs with religious affiliation, you going to cut them too based on this logic? Its a taxable deduction because it's a way to encite people to give money. If it's Cap gain, raise the rate yes (50-75% range works for us just fine), but it shouldn't be 100% aside from the fact it severely hurts most investments models the gain/loss does not reflect any change in value due to inflation. Here's an idea, raise personal tax rates, create more higher income tax brackets and lower your corporate tax rate. That'll solve many of your revenue issues. Corporate tax rates are a formality more then anything else, since any income earned by a corp eventually filters out (employment income, business income, property income, cap gain etc). They give rise to issues of double taxation which are a pain to account for.

And they shouldn't be. Many churches aren't chairities. But yes, something like a Catholic Run Food Kitchen is a charity. Your local catholic church is not.

Quote

3)and what about those who can't work in these high tech industries eh? Not everyone can be a mathematician, a scientist etc. There needs to be employment for people of all levels else they become a drag on the economy and hold everyone back. Manufacturing domestically accomplishes this goal. Yeah you don't get to take advantage of economic advantages but if a larger % of your people are employed it's an overall net gain. Unless of course you wanna go full socialism at which point by all means yes let's only employ a few and have everyone else live off that wealth.

What about them? I didn't say we would stop employing local people to build houses and roads, but manufacturing (that thing that built the US during and after WW2) cannot compete in a global market and still make a living wage

Quote

5) end the war of drugs yes, decriminalizing everything? that's a step to far man. There are some substances you do not want people on period. Some substances should not be legally purchased.

Check out the difference between decriminalizing and legalizing.

Quote

6) Legalising prostitution may actually help some of these poor women (or men) so i'd be down. Working conditions for prosititues in places like holland are sligthly better from what i hear.

7)that's one helluva can of worms you're thinking of opening. At the same time didn't you also sya you wanted lesser military expenditures. Bit of a contradiction there. I know you said short-term but let's be realistic wars rarely happen the way you plan them to be, usually end up lasting longer then anticipated.

Special Forces in Mexico isn't going to be a large strain on the budget at all. It would save money in the long run if Mexico has a stronger economy and is a stronger country, and it would help with immigration.

Quote

9) yes, let's give imperialism a whirl again, We all know how well that ended.

You clearly didn't bother reading what I said. I mean I guess if that is how you want to play it you can, but w/e.

[Tsundoku]

Oops.

http://www.news.com....t-1226513171179

----------------------------

How Americans re-elected a dead senator

By staff writers
news.com.au
November 08, 2012 4:42PM

Mario Gallegos posthumously beat a Republican challenger in the Texas state senate. Source: news.com.au

A DEAD candidate has been elected to the the Texas state Senate in Wednesday's US election, just weeks after he passed away.

Mario Gallegos posthumously beat a Republican challenger on Wednesday after his friends and family continued to campaign on his behalf after his death last month.

His widow, Theresa Gallegos spoke to website Click2Houston after the victory, emphasising the win was very important to her.

"It's been very bittersweet the last couple of weeks, the loss of my husband and all the people coming out to support him".

She said that her family worked together until the last vote was counted to ensure a victory.

Ms Gallegos said that before her husband died, he had asked her to keep his legacy alive by keeping the district in the hands of a Democrat. She added he had even pre-selected candidate Carol Alvardo to run in a special election after his death.

Ms Alvardo said: "I think everything with Mario was out of the norm, in the way he was an activist for his community and the way he fought on so many issues, so many battles, which is why the people of this district came out to support him,"

Mr Gallegos was first elected to the state senate in 1994.

Texas Governor Rick Perry will now have 20 days to call for a special election.

[HoosierDaddy]

That ain't an oops. That's planned. It's been done before. Missouri governorship a few years ago I think also went like this.

[worry]

It was actually then-Senator John "Let the Eagle Soar" Ashcroft who lost to a dead opponent, leaving him open for recruitment as Attorney General.