[Abyss]

MODGOD WARNING OF TOPIC THREATENING TO DEVOLVE INTO SNIPE'AGE.

Back on topic, it's hardly a revelation that there are some timeline issues in the vast story. Most of them imnsho can be explained, handwaved, or blissfully ignored.

FFS, we live in a world where a primary source of dates is based on the death of a religious figure who may have never existed or if he did, not lived or died in the time period commonly attributed, and a secondary source of dates speculates that the entire universe is only 5000 years old. Anthropologically, tribal and ancestral timelines are typically extended or condensced by intent or error. People have been manufacturing dates for convenience since the concept of dates existed.

There are (Harllo) a bare few (Harllo) points that cannot (Harllo) be overlooked (Harllo) but overall i just don't think it's worth holding up as a primary flaw with any one book or the series. Other than Harllo.

- Abyss, ...not important the timeline is not important the timeline is not important look Stonny was raped at Capustan in MoI and in TtH she says it's been a year but Harllo is three or five or something and not important the timeline is not important the timeline is not important the timelines is not...

[Aptorian]

The explanation from here on in is that Stonny has PTSD and has problems remembering what year it is.

[Abyss]

Aptorius, on 21 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

The explanation from here on in is that Stonny has PTSD and has problems remembering what year it is.

OOOOO - GOOD ONE!!!!
have rep!

[tiam]

Aptorius, on 21 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

The explanation from here on in is that SE and ICE have PTSD and has problems remembering what year it is.

Fixed that for you

EDIT- yes lets lay off the mudslinging.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 February 2012 - 07:48 PM

[Paran]

Apologies Abyss, was merely trying to point out that Iskar Jarak lives (but got a different bite on that bait...)

SE is good, SE is great, trust in SE - the timeline is not important.

[blackzoid]

I'm laughing at the idea that Harllo is the biggest WTF in the timeline. Even Wert didn't mention the big one in this book that ICE has now introduced:
How does the miner Imass ever have any recollection of meeting any Seguleh before this book? Thats a time difference of hundreds of thousands of years between the two peoples! The Imass fell down the shaft during the reign of Raest and was caught up in the ritual of Tellann. He never left that cave until TTH. The Seguleh were around during the times of the Tyrant. (the rulers of Darujistan not Raest). And only after the trapping of Raest was Darujistan built.

Are we supposed to surmise that Raest had his own Seguleh as well? Absurd. Utterly absurd.

The timeline is not important, so the scene between Pella and the Imass is .....not important? Do we just pretend what he said isn't important. I understand unavoidable errors that may creep up in a 16 book series written by 2 authors but this error (and it is almost certainly an error) is just incredible. The joke made by SE in DoD about the timeline doesn't cover this. Nobody should bother mentioning Harllo again, this is now the major one. That just cannot be fudged away.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 22 February 2012 - 10:31 AM

[tiam]

blackzoid, on 22 February 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm laughing at the idea that Harllo is the biggest WTF in the timeline. Even Wert didn't mention the big one in this book that ICE has now introduced:
How does the miner Imass ever have any recollection of meeting any Seguleh before this book? Thats a time difference of hundreds of thousands of years between the two peoples! The Imass fell down the shaft during the reign of Raest and was caught up in the ritual of Tellann. He never left that cave until TTH. The Seguleh were around during the times of the Tyrant. (the rulers of Darujistan not Raest). And only after the trapping of Raest was Darujistan built.

Are we supposed to surmise that Raest had his own Seguleh as well? Absurd. Utterly absurd.

The timeline is not important, so the scene between Pella and the Imass is .....not important? Do we just pretend what he said isn't important. I understand unavoidable errors that may creep up in a 16 book series written by 2 authors but this error (and it is almost certainly an error) is just incredible. The joke made by SE in DoD about the timeline doesn't cover this. Nobody should bother mentioning Harllo again, this is now the major one. That just cannot be fudged away.

I pointed this outa day or two ago on the Abyss just finished it thread. Tbh theres more than few that cant be dismissed 'oh well his viewpoint his wrong' or 'well I suppose its ecause she learned a different history'. While I expected D'stan to be older than the GOTM date it now apparently precedes the rising of humanity.

While this may have been an assumption on my part I always thought the Agatii was a response to the Seguleh exile/flight to Seguleh Isle. As in they were a huge duelling culture so as to be in readiness for the return of the Tyrant. Im not sure how guards in D'stan could maintain that level of competition when it wasnt their main priority but according to the Miner hed never have crossed the Eldrii back he 'met the First' so maybe theyve always been as they are.

Was it ever explained how both the Torrud Cabal and the Seguleh both have their names in the language of the 7cities HFE? If you discount the Miner then it makes sense that D'stan is of a similar age to the HFE and the D'satn led Genebackan confedaracy might have been a holdover from them, with the Seguleh being an elite HFE army as is specualted either on here or in RG by Samar Dev.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 February 2012 - 11:40 AM

[blackzoid]

Well its possible that maybe Darujistan was created as another colony of the Human First Empire, like Letheras. That could explain the naming convention being the same. That puts the age of Darujistan as being about 100,000 years old (if we use the date in the MOI prologue for when the HFE was around). To do this we have to ignore the dates in GOTM which state that Darujistan is about a few thousand years old only.

And the HFE was still about 200,000 years AFTER the Imass were around and mortal.
So there is still no chance that the miner Imass would have met any Seguleh.

I guess another option would be to ignore major sections of his backstory as explained in TTH and say that he got out, met the Seguleh in Darujistan a few thousand years ago (or a few hundred thousand years ago during the HFE time, when the T'lan Imass came along to put down the Beast Ritual for example)
and than fell down the mine shaft again? Its a joke if we have to do that.
Its getting to the stage where you read the book and you say to yourself,"No the author is wrong there, this is what actually happened.."

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 22 February 2012 - 12:30 PM

[tiam]

blackzoid, on 22 February 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Its getting to the stage where you read the book and you say to yourself,"No the author is wrong there, this is what actually happened.."

Your right and I think thats whats so disappointing about this book. As completely ludicrous as it sounds were telling the authors, who built their own world, that they have it wrong. In a purely factual sense were right but I suppose its their universe if they want to change it they can. It comes down to 'do the fans of something have a level of ownership over it?' style of debate thats come up before.

Personally im just disappointed that the most active threads about this book are about it being lacklustre, inconsistent and probably a step down from SW. Ive read OST twice now and hoped it would improve, which it did but not enough for to want to read it again.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 February 2012 - 06:20 PM

[D'rek]

Finished the book last night and I didn't note any timeline problems or other inconsistancies.

Rake emerging from KG with Moon's Spawn and an army? Definitely a (wrong) alternate history. That whole bit is clearly framed as a myth/legend and not presented by a character with any sort of credible knowledge of the events.

T'lan Imass miner meeting the First? Well sure. Don't you remember that in TtH he was sitting in a bunch of underground ruins? Ruins from what? Well from old Darujhistan, no doubt! If Humble Measure was interested in digging up something down there, it seems reasonable to me a Seguleh First or the Tyrant "First" might've wandered down there at some point (or heck, maybe Kruppe buried the Tyrant down there at some point).

An Andii priestess in KG? Who ever said it was the same one as from TtH? Even if it is, they could have run into that priestess either before or after the Coral Andii reach Kharkanas and The Shore. Though if it is before, I'm not sure yet if that works with the dragons in TCG.

The Tyrant has gone through this many times? Seesm reasonable. His soul-shifting techniques and the Imass smelling Ice on him, plus his comments about improving on Raest's methods make it obvious he learned some Jaghut sorcery. It doesn't mean that every time he did this it was Darujhistan, it could easily have been some other city 10 000 years ago. Alternatively, perhaps he means that every one of the Darujhistani Tyrant Kings was him - every time one "succeeded" him to the Throne it was actually him posessing them anew.

Moon's Spawn crashed only 2 years ago? Well the Spawns are pretty far from Coral after all, I guess it stayed up the air longer than anyone thought (I think they forgot how much lighter it would be once all the Great Ravens left)!

Bring it on, I can fix your complaints all day!

[Sinisdar Toste]

this is the crazy thing though (i just finished the book as well and thought this quite strange): was the miner sitting there, undead, while the cave wore away, and eventually humans came by (maybe HFE) and founded a city? did he watch it all rise and then fall in flames and think "there it goes again"? it's crazy because the miner is surrounded by the ruins of a city. he could have been visited by the seguleh first during the darujhistan imperial period.

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 16 March 2012 - 02:15 AM, said:

this is the crazy thing though (i just finished the book as well and thought this quite strange): was the miner sitting there, undead, while the cave wore away, and eventually humans came by (maybe HFE) and founded a city? did he watch it all rise and then fall in flames and think "there it goes again"? it's crazy because the miner is surrounded by the ruins of a city. he could have been visited by the seguleh first during the darujhistan imperial period.

Here's the thing, we get a bit of PoV from Dev'Anan with him remembering being thrown down into some cave/mineshaft/thing by Raest, so we can be pretty sure that that really happened. But on the other hand we know for a fact he lied to Harllo about some aspects of his being stuck in that mineshaft, so really we can't be sure that anything he told Harllo is true, which is where we get a lot of info about him from.

[Excellence]

I've not seen this mentioned so here goes my Hyrulian rupee -- maybe Teblor grow quickly. That's nothing unusual. Different people, different things.

As for Harllo . . . I hated his storyline on Toll the Hounds. The Rapespawn was a punching bag, and if I wanted to read that garbage I would have picked up a Martin book, where mothers and daughters are stripped naked to slave as waitresses for vicious pirates. This is not what I read books for, to see women and children beaten up.

[Aptorian]

But Karsa is over 80 years old if you want to believe HoC. Then again if you want to believe Leoman he was just a teenager in DG,

[worry]

Excellence, on 24 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

This is not what I read books for, to see women and children beaten up.

Man, you wanna take all the fun out of reading!

[Abyss]

I have no problem with events and ages shifting based on who is relating them.
The point that you cannot trust anyone's pov on time is actually based in SE's anthropological background, iirc.

- Abyss, may have mentioned that before. Or in the future.

[Excellence]

'wort, if I did, I would be reading a Martin book, where females are second class to menfolk, where mothers and daughters are stripped nakes by pirates to waiter on them, etc.

[Edonidd]

I never got the impression that Miner Imass met Seguleh before. He.said he.met the first, I just assumed he meant the first of the Imass, as in Tool, or whatever his name was at that point, or the first before Tool was around or whatever. Then he said he never challenged the champions or something to that effect. There have been other instances were they were called champions, I think Trake was refered to as a Champion of the First Empire or something like that.

There were are and will be plenty of other huge problems, some of which are always hard for me to ignore. I just didn't think the Miner's comment to the sixth was one of them. Him getting out of the Azath house to go into the palace in the first place makes a lot less sense to me, but that has nothing to do with the timeline.

[PutCashIn]

".... I mean, the moon blew up and women's periods didn't go crazy..."

Menstural cycles are not tied to the Moon's phases on Earth, either, although its a common fallacy that it they are. Don't read to much into the 28 days thing.

This post has been edited by PutCashIn: 15 April 2012 - 07:33 AM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Excuse the error. I do not bleed from my reproductive organs on a regular basis so I dont need to care as much. Happy to learn real knowledge though. Nevertheless my point remains the same, as the moon does have an effect on our earth but this one didnt. Perhaps its not even real. Samar Dev said there were three and now only one, and Im sure its discussed elsewhere but maybe shadow moon was emurlahn and was destroyed, fragments everywhere, but you can't see dark/galain moon without shadow, or something...I dunno. I think there is something that everyone is missing about the moon. Something happened and it wasnt obvious but it was important and I think it has to do with the rent and the vitr and builder and maker and the azath and father light and there is something there but I'm losing my mind trying to connect everything. I need more weed. Rest in peace MCA.