[tiam]

 Werthead, on 19 January 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

So now it's one year since the events of TOLL THE HOUNDS and apparently TOLL THE HOUNDS took place one year after MEMORIES OF ICE.

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE TO

Ahem.

Anyway, when TOLL THE HOUNDS came out, we were told that - somehow - 6 years had passed between MoI and TTH. Yet Karsa had teenage daughters. Although his impregnatory rampage in HoC took place maybe two years before MoI if we're very generous. Anyway, 6 years seemed way, way too long but it was difficult to handwave it away since one of the main POV characters in the book was a young boy born just after the events of MoI. Fans seemed to deal with this issue by ignoring it as best they could.

Now Esslemont - acknowledged by Erikson as generally having a better handle than him on the timeline - has retconned TTH's dating in OSB, but seems to have way overcompensated. Based on common sense and travelling times, TTH would work at 2 or maybe 3 at the most years after MoI. Saying it's now a year after MoI seems way too short for everything that happened in the interim.

I'm only 100 pages into the book, so I hold out hope that the massive discrepency will be explained as some kind of crazy Warren shenanigans before the end of the book.

Im only about 330 pages into OST so dont know if its cleared up later but I mentioned this before the book came out. Id have to find it in the speculation thread but I was pretty much laughed home because I didnt go and look up the reference. TTH is when the timeline largely shit the bed. Karsa Daughters are fine as Teblor grow differently so their size at the end of TTH (still weak tbh) is ok but Harllo is the killer. Its mentioned by Enddest Silann that Silanah has been atop Black Coral for 'around a year now' completely motionless in one his first viewpoints so I completely expected this.

EDIT- Ive noticed numerous inconsistencies that can be put down to deliberate retcons but one account of a claw leading a hand, described as a guild assasin with a clan that reports to the guild. Its an incredibly garbled account as the 'new' history of Rake finding Moon Spawn.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 January 2012 - 12:00 AM

[End of Disc One]

I just read the part about it being two years since the pieces of Moon's Spawn fell, which was in the prologue so I'm surprised the issue didn't already come up here. Anyway it's always possible that Moon's Spawn drifted for a long time before finally falling.

[Werthead]

Oh yeah, there's one bit where a Darujhistani assassin is called a Claw, which is clearly just an error.

[tiam]

 Werthead, on 22 January 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh yeah, there's one bit where a Darujhistani assassin is called a Claw, which is clearly just an error.

Yes and the other assassins with him are referred to as a Hand. At first I thought it was an attempt to show how the Guild had mirrored the Claw in organisation but it just seems clumsy.

Theres also the new tale of Rake coming out of KG with his 'legion' of followers on Moons Spawn which goes against earlier references of Rake finding it in the ice in MOI. Also I think as recent as TTH Enddest Silann mentions there was only a few followers who followed Rake trhough the gate into Wu or atleast survived the journey and this makes more sense with Korlats comment from MOI that there were only 40 Andii when they did a full unveiling. However the 'legion' comment makes more sense as in GOTM the Andii are described as the mainstay of Broods forces, as in they made up most of the numbers of his forces (described as legion upon legion I believe) which we see in MOI to be untrue as there is only 1400 Andii. However we then see at the end of TCG that there are 'thousands' of Andii who surround the last remnant of the Shake.

These are errors and inconsistencies I can remember off the top of my head and both authors are guilty of it. ICE gets it worse than SE but even he has made recent errors and I dont just mean Harllo in TTH, which is understandable as he wanted Harllo as a character of 3-4 despite only a year passing. In TCG Draconus doesnt know Olar Ethil turned the Imass into Tlan Imass despite being around for 102 000 years of their creation.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 January 2012 - 08:52 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

 End of Disc One, on 21 January 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Anyway it's always possible that Moon's Spawn drifted for a long time before finally falling.

Didn't we actually see it sink in MoI (just after Paran and QB teleported out)?

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 22 January 2012 - 06:50 PM

[tiam]

 Salt-Man Z, on 22 January 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

 End of Disc One, on 21 January 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Anyway it's always possible that Moon's Spawn drifted for a long time before finally falling.

Didn't we actually see it sink in MoI (just after Paran and QB teleported out)?

I dont think so. Though its mentioned by someone that in 'a few months' it would crash into the sea.

EDIT- Also we see Jallin noting that the Moons crashed caused a tidal wave that killed off alot of the town. Four attempts have been made to stop the Free Cities strangle hold of the Spawns and its most popular days for treasure hunters are already behind them. All this suggests substantial time has passed with TTH period probably being the height of the treasure hunting.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 January 2012 - 08:57 PM

[D'iversify]

 Werthead, on 20 January 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

 Imperial Historian, on 20 January 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

I didn't see anything dating MOI with respect to TTH, only comment I noticed affecting the timeline was that OST was set roughly 1 year after TTH, and that it was before TCG. I have it occuring at roughly the same time as stonewielder and dust of dreams. Where abouts is the quote relating to MOI wert?

Moon's Spawn crashed into the Rivan Sea '2 years ago' in the text. IIRC, the Spawn was last seen in MoI careening off southwards on a crash-landing course, so it presumably crashed shortly afterwards.

Well, if this is the only evidence for OST being set so shortly after MOI, it can be triaged, I think. The Spawns are quite some distance from Coral and we don't know Moon's Spawn's route - it may well have wandered considerably on its way. So travelling to its final resting ground would have taken some time in itself. Once in the region, it may have been quite some time before its anti-gravity peetered out or become too destabilising. Overall, yes, Moon's Spawn crashing 'two years ago' may be another major storyline problem but only if we assume 'it presumably crashed shortly afterwards'. Not to say that this is what ICE meant, but its a way of saving a portion of the timeline.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 23 January 2012 - 08:44 AM

[Urizen]

 tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Theres also the new tale of Rake coming out of KG with his 'legion' of followers on Moons Spawn which goes against earlier references of Rake finding it in the ice in MOI. Also I think as recent as TTH Enddest Silann mentions there was only a few followers who followed Rake trhough the gate into Wu or atleast survived the journey and this makes more sense with Korlats comment from MOI that there were only 40 Andii when they did a full unveiling. However the 'legion' comment makes more sense as in GOTM the Andii are described as the mainstay of Broods forces, as in they made up most of the numbers of his forces (described as legion upon legion I believe) which we see in MOI to be untrue as there is only 1400 Andii. However we then see at the end of TCG that there are 'thousands' of Andii who surround the last remnant of the Shake.

I have no problem with this tale as it is just that, a tale from people who wasn't around when it actually happened. As the tale comes from human Elder Night worshipers it's not unlikely that they have a revised history on how Rake came to Wu. Rake coming to Wu as a refugee with only a score of followers is not a suitable beginning for the champion of their faith. Better to have him float out of Elder Night in a flying mountain and legions of Tiste Andi ready to do his bidding.

[tiam]

 Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

 tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Theres also the new tale of Rake coming out of KG with his 'legion' of followers on Moons Spawn which goes against earlier references of Rake finding it in the ice in MOI. Also I think as recent as TTH Enddest Silann mentions there was only a few followers who followed Rake trhough the gate into Wu or atleast survived the journey and this makes more sense with Korlats comment from MOI that there were only 40 Andii when they did a full unveiling. However the 'legion' comment makes more sense as in GOTM the Andii are described as the mainstay of Broods forces, as in they made up most of the numbers of his forces (described as legion upon legion I believe) which we see in MOI to be untrue as there is only 1400 Andii. However we then see at the end of TCG that there are 'thousands' of Andii who surround the last remnant of the Shake.

I have no problem with this tale as it is just that, a tale from people who wasn't around when it actually happened. As the tale comes from human Elder Night worshipers it's not unlikely that they have a revised history on how Rake came to Wu. Rake coming to Wu as a refugee with only a score of followers is not a suitable beginning for the champion of their faith. Better to have him float out of Elder Night in a flying mountain and legions of Tiste Andi ready to do his bidding.

Yes ofcourse this is a possibility but as I point out there have been discrepancies with Andiian numbers for a while.

Also to those shoehorning the timeline:

If this takes place before TCG why has Karsa left the city? He was told not to by Picker as he was needed to slay a god which he did. Also if it was before TCG why are there Andii in KG? There is an organised priesthood that takes Orchid from Antsy that could only have come from the new Andii who only arrived in TCG.

TBH the timeline is fucked from the very prologue of GOTM when WJ remembers Surly as a barmaid amongst other things. My most annoying timeline inconsistency is the MOI prologue with Draconus lack of knowledge of the Tlan Imass

[Urizen]

 tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

 Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

 tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Theres also the new tale of Rake coming out of KG with his 'legion' of followers on Moons Spawn which goes against earlier references of Rake finding it in the ice in MOI. Also I think as recent as TTH Enddest Silann mentions there was only a few followers who followed Rake trhough the gate into Wu or atleast survived the journey and this makes more sense with Korlats comment from MOI that there were only 40 Andii when they did a full unveiling. However the 'legion' comment makes more sense as in GOTM the Andii are described as the mainstay of Broods forces, as in they made up most of the numbers of his forces (described as legion upon legion I believe) which we see in MOI to be untrue as there is only 1400 Andii. However we then see at the end of TCG that there are 'thousands' of Andii who surround the last remnant of the Shake.

I have no problem with this tale as it is just that, a tale from people who wasn't around when it actually happened. As the tale comes from human Elder Night worshipers it's not unlikely that they have a revised history on how Rake came to Wu. Rake coming to Wu as a refugee with only a score of followers is not a suitable beginning for the champion of their faith. Better to have him float out of Elder Night in a flying mountain and legions of Tiste Andi ready to do his bidding.

Yes ofcourse this is a possibility but as I point out there have been discrepancies with Andiian numbers for a while.

Also to those shoehorning the timeline:

If this takes place before TCG why has Karsa left the city? He was told not to by Picker as he was needed to slay a god which he did. Also if it was before TCG why are there Andii in KG? There is an organised priesthood that takes Orchid from Antsy that could only have come from the new Andii who only arrived in TCG.

TBH the timeline is fucked from the very prologue of GOTM when WJ remembers Surly as a barmaid amongst other things. My most annoying timeline inconsistency is the MOI prologue with Draconus lack of knowledge of the Tlan Imass

I never liked the low numbers of Andi but Yeah, I've got nothing with regards to Andiian numbers.

Karsa is not a problem as the Daruhjistan interludes in TCG show that Picker has to leave the city to go get Karsa. We also see in the Karsa PoV how he walks into the city, which fits with him hanging around in the hills around Darujhistan as seen in OST.

With regards to the Andiian priestess, there were an organised priesthood even before they got back to Kharkanas, Maybe Antsy turn up after the Liosan/Andi fracas but before Nimander and his lot turn up in the Kolanese. When I read DoD and TCG I got the impression that the Shake/Andi storyline came to a close fairly early, perhaps around the time when the Bonehunters comes across the Narhuk.

[Werthead]

Didn't the events of TCG remove the Jade Scimitar/Slashes from the sky? I thought that was the case, so the continued, prevalent presence of the Scimitar in OST is what puts it before TCG. If the Scimitar actually remains after the end of TCG, than OST can take place afterwards. This also solves the problem of the OST events not being mentioned in TCG and why Karsa doesn't take part in the events of OST: whilst he's reported living near Darujhistan in OST, he could actually have moved on, and this would explain why he doesn't play a role. Having him take part in the events of TTH, then leave the city and not bother with the OST stuff going down, then come back during TCG really doesn't make sense.

[blackzoid]

 Werthead, on 23 January 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Didn't the events of TCG remove the Jade Scimitar/Slashes from the sky? I thought that was the case, so the continued, prevalent presence of the Scimitar in OST is what puts it before TCG. If the Scimitar actually remains after the end of TCG, than OST can take place afterwards. This also solves the problem of the OST events not being mentioned in TCG and why Karsa doesn't take part in the events of OST: whilst he's reported living near Darujhistan in OST, he could actually have moved on, and this would explain why he doesn't play a role. Having him take part in the events of TTH, then leave the city and not bother with the OST stuff going down, then come back during TCG really doesn't make sense.

No you were right at the start, it takes before/during DoD/TCG
At the end of TCG, its been mentioned that the Jade strangers are slightly further away as a result of the events.
But during OST, it mentions that the jade strangers are getting slightly closer. (I remember one character thinking they look closer anyway). Plus Traveller thinks that the big convergence is happening to the west (where choices are been made on behalf of everyone) and he is resisting the urge to join in.

Plus Spindle mentions that he is going to go back to Coral at the end of OST. And that tracks with his interlude in TCG.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 23 January 2012 - 10:00 PM

[tiam]

Isnt there a Picker POV in TCG where she has a very general comment that theres alot going on around here or something like that and then shes nearly killed by Blends reflexes while Blend is asleep? Sounds ridiculous but im sure thats in TCG. Also at the beginning of TCG the Andii have just left and Spindle is still down south at this point.

[blackzoid]

 tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Isnt there a Picker POV in TCG where she has a very general comment that theres alot going on around here or something like that and then shes nearly killed by Blends reflexes while Blend is asleep? Sounds ridiculous but im sure thats in TCG. Also at the beginning of TCG the Andii have just left and Spindle is still down south at this point.

Spindle goes down twice to Coral (aside from MoI). He goes down first in TTH, comes back up (while Antsy is presumably on the way down so they may have met on the road), has the adventure in OST and mentions to Picker in the bar at the end that he is going back.

[tiam]

 blackzoid, on 23 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

 tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Isnt there a Picker POV in TCG where she has a very general comment that theres alot going on around here or something like that and then shes nearly killed by Blends reflexes while Blend is asleep? Sounds ridiculous but im sure thats in TCG. Also at the beginning of TCG the Andii have just left and Spindle is still down south at this point.

Spindle goes down twice to Coral (aside from MoI). He goes down first in TTH, comes back up (while Antsy is presumably on the way down so they may have met on the road), has the adventure in OST and mentions to Picker in the bar at the end that he is going back.

I dont think they met on the road as when Spin gets back he asks where Antsy is doesnt he? Also the Andii must have left Coral by the time Spindle left as hes there the one morning when they vanish in the night. So I think its Spindles down there, the Andii leave, Spindle comes back to D'stan then potentially goes back down. The reason I think its this way is we see the Andiian priestess in KG.

EDIT- Is anyone else annoyed that the most active thread from OST is the one where we discuss the timeline being shit? Were not discussing the plot the Tyrant anything. My god this book was frustrating.

This post has been edited by tiam: 24 January 2012 - 12:05 AM

[Powder]

I am 100% not in the least bothered by the timeline. I enjoyed the book. I think it might be ICE's best so far.

[Mrs Savagely Wishy Washy]

 Powder, on 24 January 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

I am 100% not in the least bothered by the timeline. I enjoyed the book. I think it might be ICE's best so far.

I second that. Tiime is relative after all. Maybe not so much from a human perspective, but on the cosmic scale. That, and then mix in some artistic freedom- et voilà! Kick back and enjoy the show.

This post has been edited by Miss Savage: 24 January 2012 - 05:47 AM

[blackzoid]

 tiam, on 24 January 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

 blackzoid, on 23 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

 tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Isnt there a Picker POV in TCG where she has a very general comment that theres alot going on around here or something like that and then shes nearly killed by Blends reflexes while Blend is asleep? Sounds ridiculous but im sure thats in TCG. Also at the beginning of TCG the Andii have just left and Spindle is still down south at this point.

Spindle goes down twice to Coral (aside from MoI). He goes down first in TTH, comes back up (while Antsy is presumably on the way down so they may have met on the road), has the adventure in OST and mentions to Picker in the bar at the end that he is going back.

I dont think they met on the road as when Spin gets back he asks where Antsy is doesnt he? Also the Andii must have left Coral by the time Spindle left as hes there the one morning when they vanish in the night. So I think its Spindles down there, the Andii leave, Spindle comes back to D'stan then potentially goes back down. The reason I think its this way is we see the Andiian priestess in KG.

EDIT- Is anyone else annoyed that the most active thread from OST is the one where we discuss the timeline being shit? Were not discussing the plot the Tyrant anything. My god this book was frustrating.

Oh I see what you mean. You are using the Andiian priestess presence in KG in OST as a time-marker. I out and out just ignored that storyline cos of the other inaccurices (Throne of Night being in Moon's Spawn, the skykeep having actually come from KG etc.) Since I didn't enjoy that storyline as much as the Segulah/Tyrant storyline (which I thought was pretty damn good), I feel fine not using its facts. Maybe I should.

To me the timeline (and storyline) works a lot better if we just ignore the Spawn story. Or reconcile the fact of the Andiian presence in KG in the book, by using the precedent of Korlat in MoI, where she travels with Whiskeyjack through KG for a short period but is deemed to not have actually returned fully to it (as in to Kharkanas). So those priestess may have travelled through KG from Black Coral to pick up Orchid and will return with her there. Or maybe they were survivors from Bluerose in Lether. Yes its jumping through hoops, but the feeling I got is that this book was planned to take place before the climax of TCG.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 January 2012 - 10:17 AM

[tiam]

 blackzoid, on 24 January 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

 tiam, on 24 January 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

 blackzoid, on 23 January 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

 tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Isnt there a Picker POV in TCG where she has a very general comment that theres alot going on around here or something like that and then shes nearly killed by Blends reflexes while Blend is asleep? Sounds ridiculous but im sure thats in TCG. Also at the beginning of TCG the Andii have just left and Spindle is still down south at this point.

Spindle goes down twice to Coral (aside from MoI). He goes down first in TTH, comes back up (while Antsy is presumably on the way down so they may have met on the road), has the adventure in OST and mentions to Picker in the bar at the end that he is going back.

I dont think they met on the road as when Spin gets back he asks where Antsy is doesnt he? Also the Andii must have left Coral by the time Spindle left as hes there the one morning when they vanish in the night. So I think its Spindles down there, the Andii leave, Spindle comes back to D'stan then potentially goes back down. The reason I think its this way is we see the Andiian priestess in KG.

EDIT- Is anyone else annoyed that the most active thread from OST is the one where we discuss the timeline being shit? Were not discussing the plot the Tyrant anything. My god this book was frustrating.

Oh I see what you mean. You are using the Andiian priestess presence in KG in OST as a time-marker. I out and out just ignored that storyline cos of the other inaccurices (Throne of Night being in Moon's Spawn, the skykeep having actually come from KG etc.) Since I didn't enjoy that storyline as much as the Segulah/Tyrant storyline (which I thought was pretty damn good), I feel fine not using its facts. Maybe I should.

To me the timeline (and storyline) works a lot better if we just ignore the Spawn story. Or reconcile the fact of the Andiian presence in KG in the book, by using the precedent of Korlat in MoI, where she travels with Whiskeyjack through KG for a short period but is deemed to not have actually returned fully to it (as in to Kharkanas). So those priestess may have travelled through KG from Black Coral to pick up Orchid and will return with her there. Or maybe they were survivors from Bluerose in Lether. Yes its jumping through hoops, but the feeling I got is that this book was planned to take place before the climax of TCG.

It is stated that they cant enter KG and only Clip can IIRC in RG. But as you say that contradicts Korlat in MOI. Im sure that the Andii priestess represent the Coral Andii but as you said why bother?

Yes I use that as I marker. As I pointed out a while back if you check MOI the room with the BB bodies does have a throne thats slightly pushed to one side that may represent the Throne of Night we see in OST. I suppose we could interpret it as being inactive because of MD rejection and it had been reactivated by Rakes sacrifice in TTH. As you say jumping trough hoops. I commented on the Rake emerged from KG on a Skykeep with a legion of followers on another thread and someone said that its only an interpretation of events. It would be far less dramatic if he stumbled into Wu with a few war torn followers so, given that we know fuck all about Orchids background, she may have learnt the glorious tale. My problem is actually with the numbers of Andii which I think is in another thread.


Miss Savage quote- Isecond that. Tiime is relative after all. Maybe not so much from a human perspective, but on the cosmic scale. That, and then mix in some artistic freedom- et voilà! Kick back and enjoy the show.

I actually disagree with this completely. Everyone knows the timeline is knackered. You get to the end of the prologue of GOTM and the timeline doesnt make sense. But I dislike the fact that inconsistencies are added. While its very nice by saying 'time on a cosmic scale' ICE is regarded by SE as the better author with his head around the timeline atleast and this just has too many holes. This obv isnt a personal attack on you but I think the timeline should be discussed and a sort of basic chronology should be established.

[champ]

 tiam, on 24 January 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Miss Savage quote- Isecond that. Tiime is relative after all. Maybe not so much from a human perspective, but on the cosmic scale. That, and then mix in some artistic freedom- et voilà! Kick back and enjoy the show.

I actually disagree with this completely. Everyone knows the timeline is knackered. You get to the end of the prologue of GOTM and the timeline doesnt make sense. But I dislike the fact that inconsistencies are added. While its very nice by saying 'time on a cosmic scale' ICE is regarded by SE as the better author with his head around the timeline atleast and this just has too many holes. This obv isnt a personal attack on you but I think the timeline should be discussed and a sort of basic chronology should be established.

I just think why needlessly add confusion, what are we now, 14-15 books into a cross-author series, a pattern has been set and established, yes mistakes have been made in the past but why repeat them again, the foundations are already there to work off so you would hope that there aren't any inconsistencies this far into the series, I guess it's just frustrating for some of us...