[Zedman1991]

It's been a while since i read HoC, i'm on a reread and am on TtH, but i just ran across this in wikipedia. "Ba'ienrok - Hermit in Seven Cities, also called Keeper; later revealed to be Urko Crust."

This is the character that is putting together the fossils isn't he? Where Apsalar finds the two skeletons where the ghosts possess them and follow her around. Or did i mix characters up.

Anyway, i ask because when the hell is he ever told to be Urko Crust.



Spoiler for TtH

Spoiler

I'm very interested in the old guard here mostly because of the revelation of who traveler is in TtH. As far as i know TtH is the first time we hear anything about dasseem ultor (spelling sorry) not being dead.

[worry]

Love it when someone's immediate response to running across a spoiler is to go ahead and spread it to as many people as possible.

[Zedman1991]

Love it how you don't explain how this is a spoiler. If i don't know that it isn't told in HoC how am i supposed to know where it is. If this is in DoD or TCG ill take it down, but from what it said, this is HoC. HoC spoilers are allowed in here. if you aren't going to answer the question, then how are you going to expect me to know what i am spoiling.

I haven't read anything at all up to TtH where this is revealed, but i have not read 9 or 10, so if it's in there then yes i made a mistake. From wikipedia it only says this character is in HoC, so it's logically safe for me to assume that this is ok to put here.

This post has been edited by Zedman1991: 06 January 2012 - 05:46 AM

[worry]

Exactly my point. You don't know, and yet you decided to put it in the earliest possible thread regardless, despite having the entirety of the internet at your disposal as well as a General Book forum. Your need to immediately sate your curiosity at the cost of any other reader still making their first way through the series trumps all, I suppose.

But if the fact that the very thing you quoted says "later revealed to be..." wasn't clue enough, here's your answer:

Spoiler

The Bonehunters

Also, I might get reamed (deservedly?) for being snippy to such an infrequent poster with only mild provocation, but hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I did. Which is to say, a low-end moderate amount.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 06 January 2012 - 06:19 AM

[Defiance]

If you pay close attention on your re-read, it's given away during House of Chains.

1) He's Napan, with a Malazan accent, and he, "Died long ago" according to himself (chapter three)
2) The quote starting chapter four, the chapter after you meet Keeper, "Has a drowned Napan's body ever surfaced?" [we know that all of the Napan's "drowned" when Laseen came into power]
3) Tavore talks to Nok and Gamet in chapter five about how the Napans all disappeared when Laseen came to power [Urko Crust, Cartheron Crust, and Ameron]. We know for sure that Keeper can't be Cartheron, as we met Cartheron Crust in Deadhouse Gates and he certainly doesn't fit Keeper's description
4) This is what really puts the nail in the coffin: Chapter 11, when Stormy and Gesler talk about Urko punching. "I once saw Urko punch down the side of a mudbrick house... That Napan bastard could pack a punch." Given how tough we know Karsa is, yet how easily Keeper knocked the shit out of him with a single punch, this conversation pretty much gives it away.

It never is definitively said in House of Chains, though. On a reread, all the clues make it seem really obvious, but the first time through it's definitely easy to miss. Hell, I didn't catch Traveller's identity the first time around, and that was a hell of a lot more obvious than Keeper's. Nearly as obvious as when Quick Ben, Kalam, Tattersail, and others are speculating about the Deck of Dragons and how the Shadow Realm and its two new rulers only came into play after the assassination of the emperor and Dancer during Gardens of the Moon quite obviously tells us who Shadowthrone and Cotillion are (it ended up just being a mind-blowing surprise in Deadhouse Gates when Apsalar is recalling Cotillion's memories with Crokus and Fiddler).

This post has been edited by Defiance: 06 January 2012 - 06:49 AM

[worry]

What the hell, Defiance...I was trying to set a mood here.

[champ]

worrywort, on 06 January 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

What the hell, Defiance...I was trying to set a mood here.

You did a pretty good job, the only thing you missed was the angry man fist shake!

[Zedman1991]

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

If you pay close attention on your re-read, it's given away during House of Chains.

1) He's Napan, with a Malazan accent, and he, "Died long ago" according to himself (chapter three)
2) The quote starting chapter four, the chapter after you meet Keeper, "Has a drowned Napan's body ever surfaced?" [we know that all of the Napan's "drowned" when Laseen came into power]
3) Tavore talks to Nok and Gamet in chapter five about how the Napans all disappeared when Laseen came to power [Urko Crust, Cartheron Crust, and Ameron]. We know for sure that Keeper can't be Cartheron, as we met Cartheron Crust in Deadhouse Gates and he certainly doesn't fit Keeper's description
4) This is what really puts the nail in the coffin: Chapter 11, when Stormy and Gesler talk about Urko punching. "I once saw Urko punch down the side of a mudbrick house... That Napan bastard could pack a punch." Given how tough we know Karsa is, yet how easily Keeper knocked the shit out of him with a single punch, this conversation pretty much gives it away.

It never is definitively said in House of Chains, though. On a reread, all the clues make it seem really obvious, but the first time through it's definitely easy to miss. Hell, I didn't catch Traveller's identity the first time around, and that was a hell of a lot more obvious than Keeper's. Nearly as obvious as when Quick Ben, Kalam, Tattersail, and others are speculating about the Deck of Dragons and how the Shadow Realm and its two new rulers only came into play after the assassination of the emperor and Dancer during Gardens of the Moon quite obviously tells us who Shadowthrone and Cotillion are (it ended up just being a mind-blowing surprise in Deadhouse Gates when Apsalar is recalling Cotillion's memories with Crokus and Fiddler).

Well that pretty much sums up how much i missed on my reread. i have no recollection of realizing cartheron crust was also alive. I guess this opens the interesting question for me of what actually happened between laseen gaining power and getting rid of the old guard, because she sure as hell didn't get rid of them.

[D'rek]

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

If you pay close attention on your re-read, it's given away during House of Chains.

1) He's Napan, with a Malazan accent, and he, "Died long ago" according to himself (chapter three)
2) The quote starting chapter four, the chapter after you meet Keeper, "Has a drowned Napan's body ever surfaced?" [we know that all of the Napan's "drowned" when Laseen came into power]
3) Tavore talks to Nok and Gamet in chapter five about how the Napans all disappeared when Laseen came to power [Urko Crust, Cartheron Crust, and Ameron]. We know for sure that Keeper can't be Cartheron, as we met Cartheron Crust in Deadhouse Gates and he certainly doesn't fit Keeper's description
4) This is what really puts the nail in the coffin: Chapter 11, when Stormy and Gesler talk about Urko punching. "I once saw Urko punch down the side of a mudbrick house... That Napan bastard could pack a punch." Given how tough we know Karsa is, yet how easily Keeper knocked the shit out of him with a single punch, this conversation pretty much gives it away.

It never is definitively said in House of Chains, though. On a reread, all the clues make it seem really obvious, but the first time through it's definitely easy to miss. Hell, I didn't catch Traveller's identity the first time around, and that was a hell of a lot more obvious than Keeper's. Nearly as obvious as when Quick Ben, Kalam, Tattersail, and others are speculating about the Deck of Dragons and how the Shadow Realm and its two new rulers only came into play after the assassination of the emperor and Dancer during Gardens of the Moon quite obviously tells us who Shadowthrone and Cotillion are (it ended up just being a mind-blowing surprise in Deadhouse Gates when Apsalar is recalling Cotillion's memories with Crokus and Fiddler).

This is like taking random mentions about Rake from MoI - he's an amazing sword fighter, he can disguise himself as a human for centuries, he opposed the malazan expansion on Quon Tali, some people compare his sword prowess to Dassem Ultor - and concluding that he is Skinner. It's not true, but if it later turned out to be true in DoD, it would still be a spoiler in the MoI forum and every other forum leading up to whatever book it is proven in, no matter how many "hints" might lead you to believe it.

ST and Cot are a spoiler until DG
Toblakai is a spoiler until HoC
Keeper is a spoiler until tBH
etc

and this thread should be moved or deleted ASAP. Mods have been pinged.

[Defiance]

Those quotes aren't random, though, D'rek. It seems odd that Erikson would so conveniently place references as to Urko's identity throughout the book, but only have done it accidentally. Hell, the same thing goes with Traveller's identity, when Apsalar is thinking back on Dancer's memories. Illyunakis said it best in his House of Chains summary, but everything you need to know is staring you right in the face. However, as readers, it's impossible to retain every little bit of information we stumble across, and making connections (especially the first time through) to what seem rather minor things can be quite difficult, especially with all of the other stuff that's going on.

Not to disagree with the topic being moved. My only qualm was with your foolish comparison to Rake and Skinner.

[D'rek]

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Those quotes aren't random, though, D'rek. It seems odd that Erikson would so conveniently place references as to Urko's identity throughout the book, but only have done it accidentally. Hell, the same thing goes with Traveller's identity, when Apsalar is thinking back on Dancer's memories. Illyunakis said it best in his House of Chains summary, but everything you need to know is staring you right in the face. However, as readers, it's impossible to retain every little bit of information we stumble across, and making connections (especially the first time through) to what seem rather minor things can be quite difficult, especially with all of the other stuff that's going on.

Not to disagree with the topic being moved. My only qualm was with your foolish comparison to Rake and Skinner.

So you would rather spoil new readers by telling them ahead of time what all the little hints in the books are referring to before they reach the points of resolution? It doesn't matter how blatant we think it is or isn't, we're not the ones reading it for the first time. No matter how obvious it is, I would've been pretty pissed at you for telling me the Iron Prophet was Whiskeyjack while I was reading tBH, not because there weren't a dozen obvious hints to it already, but because I did not at that point know for sure and the mystery and speculation is enjoyable. You want to ruin that for everyone who happens to check these book forums as they read through the series?

[Defiance]

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Not to disagree with the topic being moved. My only qualm was with your foolish comparison to Rake and Skinner.

Please, read before you make accusations.

[D'rek]

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Defiance, on 06 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Not to disagree with the topic being moved. My only qualm was with your foolish comparison to Rake and Skinner.

Please, read before you make accusations.

But why is it foolish? At HoC-level its perfectly plausible and fits just as well as your Urko theory.

[Abyss]

MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD THREATENING TO DEVOLVE
INTO ARGUING ABOUT ARGUING AND WILL BE GHOSTED
IF VAGUE SEMBLANCE OF ON TOPIC DISCUSSION
DOES NOT RESURFACE

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 06 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

MODGOD NOTICE OF THREAD THREATENING TO DEVOLVE
INTO ARGUING ABOUT ARGUING AND WILL BE GHOSTED
IF VAGUE SEMBLANCE OF ON TOPIC DISCUSSION
DOES NOT RESURFACE

Fine by me. IMO this thread should just be deleted as it was naught but spoiler in HoC and serves just about no purpose in TtH.

[Kanese S's]

Having read the series, I had not before made the connection.

I feel silly now.

[RMosack]

Kanese S, on 06 January 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Having read the series, I had not before made the connection.

I feel silly now.

Ditto.

[tiam]

Have you both read ROTCG? That shines a few lights on it but its actually stated in TBH I think while heavily suggested in HOC.

If youve read TBH you have no excuses gents

[Zedman1991]

To make sure it doesn't get closed, could we then move this topic towards discussing why and how all of the old guard managed to survive when originally we were told that laseen had them killed? i can see why they survived, being fairly powerful people, but i'm surprised that laseen did not make sure she finished the job. That's a pretty big mistake by the claw as well, who other than dealing with kalam seem to do fairly well (assuming i haven't forgotten MORE about the books previously, which considering the amount of information is very easy).

This post has been edited by Zedman1991: 07 January 2012 - 12:17 AM

[worry]

I think it's because the empire just isn't that big, and even what it has is mostly newish and insecure. So if someone wanted to disappear themselves from it, it wouldn't take that much. The Claw are certainly a force to be reckoned with at the core of the empire, and even in some parts of Seven Cities, but it's still a pretty geographically limited network, and there's a whole world out there.