[Kanese S's]

This is true. While the Empire is big considering how new it is, its reach certainly isn't infinite. All you have to do is go beyond its borders and suddenly the Claw isn't nearly as much of a danger, at least if you're not in an area the Empire is trying to expand into.

And in Seven Cities and Genabackis, you don't even have to leave the continent to disappear.

Another thing to consider is that this world is in an era where there are still innumerable remote areas where one can live in relative isolation... and, if necessary, secrecy. Even within the Empire, if you were willing to pretty much be a hermit, you could lay low, and escape the notice of the Imperial authorities. This would be even more true if you went outside the Empire's borders and settled in some remote area.

As well, one thing that becomes apparent if you've read RotCG, is that

Spoiler

Laseen in some instances purposefully leaves many of the Old Guard alive in case worst comes to worst and they're needed later

.

[Defiance]

I'd imagine that most - if not all - of the higher ups in the "Old Guard" caught wind of what was happening before the actual transfer of power took place. I mean, at the beginning of Gardens of the Moon, we hear Whiskeyjack and Fiddler talking about how Surly has just taken on the name Laseen, and this is before Kellanved and Dancer make their short-lasting return to the empire. That's pretty much a dead giveaway to keep your head low.

[Zedman1991]

I may be wrong but weren't some attempts at the murders in Malaz City? i really have no idea why i feel like i remember this, but for some reason i feel like this was part of it. Even with the world being so large, we as readers read about our own characters running into these famous old guard. In a way, it puts into perspective a bit how week laseen may actually be comparatively. By climbing the ladder, she has been exposed to having absolutely no word of mouth. I mean the world's huge, but the convergences of power seem to nullify that for many main characters.

[tiam]

Zedman1991, on 08 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

I may be wrong but weren't some attempts at the murders in Malaz City? i really have no idea why i feel like i remember this, but for some reason i feel like this was part of it. Even with the world being so large, we as readers read about our own characters running into these famous old guard. In a way, it puts into perspective a bit how week laseen may actually be comparatively. By climbing the ladder, she has been exposed to having absolutely no word of mouth. I mean the world's huge, but the convergences of power seem to nullify that for many main characters.

Werent some attempts at the the murders in Malaz City? Im unsure what you mean here. Laseen isnt weak btw she has as much control as Kellenved did but with the Claw rather than the Imass. As others have said alot of your questions are answered in ROTCG so read that.

[Zedman1991]

tiam, on 09 January 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Zedman1991, on 08 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

I may be wrong but weren't some attempts at the murders in Malaz City? i really have no idea why i feel like i remember this, but for some reason i feel like this was part of it. Even with the world being so large, we as readers read about our own characters running into these famous old guard. In a way, it puts into perspective a bit how week laseen may actually be comparatively. By climbing the ladder, she has been exposed to having absolutely no word of mouth. I mean the world's huge, but the convergences of power seem to nullify that for many main characters.

Werent some attempts at the the murders in Malaz City? Im unsure what you mean here. Laseen isnt weak btw she has as much control as Kellenved did but with the Claw rather than the Imass. As others have said alot of your questions are answered in ROTCG so read that.

I meant weren't some of the attacks on the old guard by laseen attempted within or around malaz city. it was a response to there being places to hide around the world to disappear.

[Drae]

Does it matter if the old guard is actually dead; or just if the whole world thinks they're dead?

Once the general population believes they are dead, they lose the vast majority of their political power anyway. If they are leaving the empire good enough alone, why spend the resources to cut them down? Many of these people were "friends" or "supporters" (maybe not for the take-over of the empire, but certainly of the Napan Royalty in Exile thing) of Surly.

Also as pointed out earlier they could be useful with the proper... leverage.

I infer that it's not a matter of Laseen not being able to actually kill them vs. not finding it worth the effort so to speak, if the objective of nullifying their political power is already achieved.

This post has been edited by Drae: 10 January 2012 - 01:46 PM

[tiam]

Zedman1991, on 10 January 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

tiam, on 09 January 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Zedman1991, on 08 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

I may be wrong but weren't some attempts at the murders in Malaz City? i really have no idea why i feel like i remember this, but for some reason i feel like this was part of it. Even with the world being so large, we as readers read about our own characters running into these famous old guard. In a way, it puts into perspective a bit how week laseen may actually be comparatively. By climbing the ladder, she has been exposed to having absolutely no word of mouth. I mean the world's huge, but the convergences of power seem to nullify that for many main characters.

Werent some attempts at the the murders in Malaz City? Im unsure what you mean here. Laseen isnt weak btw she has as much control as Kellenved did but with the Claw rather than the Imass. As others have said alot of your questions are answered in ROTCG so read that.

I meant weren't some of the attacks on the old guard by laseen attempted within or around malaz city. it was a response to there being places to hide around the world to disappear.

Drae, on 10 January 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Does it matter if the old guard is actually dead; or just if the whole world thinks they're dead?

Once the general population believes they are dead, they lose the vast majority of their political power anyway. If they are leaving the empire good enough alone, why spend the resources to cut them down? Many of these people were "friends" or "supporters" (maybe not for the take-over of the empire, but certainly of the Napan Royalty in Exile thing) of Surly.

Also as pointed out earlier they could be useful with the proper... leverage.

I infer that it's not a matter of Laseen not being able to actually kill them vs. not finding it worth the effort so to speak, if the objective of nullifying their political power is already achieved.

Your both in dire need of a read of ROTCG tbh that would answer all these questions easily.

Also most of the Admirals drowned or disappeared. Didnt really happen in Malaz city except I think Crust may have drowned in the bay though I think thats wrong.

EDIT- for the record chronologically ROTCG happens before TTH so you should have already read it.

This post has been edited by tiam: 10 January 2012 - 02:21 PM

[Zedman1991]

tiam, on 10 January 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Zedman1991, on 10 January 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

tiam, on 09 January 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Zedman1991, on 08 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

I may be wrong but weren't some attempts at the murders in Malaz City? i really have no idea why i feel like i remember this, but for some reason i feel like this was part of it. Even with the world being so large, we as readers read about our own characters running into these famous old guard. In a way, it puts into perspective a bit how week laseen may actually be comparatively. By climbing the ladder, she has been exposed to having absolutely no word of mouth. I mean the world's huge, but the convergences of power seem to nullify that for many main characters.

Werent some attempts at the the murders in Malaz City? Im unsure what you mean here. Laseen isnt weak btw she has as much control as Kellenved did but with the Claw rather than the Imass. As others have said alot of your questions are answered in ROTCG so read that.

I meant weren't some of the attacks on the old guard by laseen attempted within or around malaz city. it was a response to there being places to hide around the world to disappear.

Drae, on 10 January 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Does it matter if the old guard is actually dead; or just if the whole world thinks they're dead?

Once the general population believes they are dead, they lose the vast majority of their political power anyway. If they are leaving the empire good enough alone, why spend the resources to cut them down? Many of these people were "friends" or "supporters" (maybe not for the take-over of the empire, but certainly of the Napan Royalty in Exile thing) of Surly.

Also as pointed out earlier they could be useful with the proper... leverage.

I infer that it's not a matter of Laseen not being able to actually kill them vs. not finding it worth the effort so to speak, if the objective of nullifying their political power is already achieved.

Your both in dire need of a read of ROTCG tbh that would answer all these questions easily.

Also most of the Admirals drowned or disappeared. Didnt really happen in Malaz city except I think Crust may have drowned in the bay though I think thats wrong.

EDIT- for the record chronologically ROTCG happens before TTH so you should have already read it.

i am still reading up to DoD and TCG. I had to start a reread for DoD because it'd been so long i wouldnt have remembered anything, so i've been doing that for the past year ;p. when im done ill go read SW, RotCG, and orb scepter throne. I've already read NoK

[Kanese S's]

I did it that way, but things probably would have made a lot more sense if I'd read RotCG before the last couple books.

[tiam]

Yes the later books in the series can ruin th main plot twists of ROTCG. As always the order of publication is a good guide.

[Zedman1991]

tiam, on 16 January 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Yes the later books in the series can ruin th main plot twists of ROTCG. As always the order of publication is a good guide.

ahh man you guys are killing me. I've been waiting for ages to read those books but now im ???. i think i'll continue with dod and tcg because i still have to go back and read... nvm rotcg came before sw. fuck.

[worry]

You should listen to me and only me on this issue. Ignore even the people who agree 100% with me! Just for the record, the references to SW in the last couple MBotF are few and somewhat oblique. They could be counted as spoilers, but there's a 50/50 chance you won't spot them or won't understand them, and that when you read the ICE books you'll just be like "Ohhhhh that's what it meant."

NoK: spoils something hinted at in GotM and elaborated in DH, and introduces characters seen in TBH.
RotCG: will be spoiled by TTH in terms of some events and characters, and features relatively important events that are referred to in DoD in a roundabout way but would certainly count as spoilers if you get them.
SW: I'd say you could read this one before or after DoD/TCG. They are kinda more complimentary than chronological. The main issue would be in spoiling your expectations/guesses/hopes for what you'll see in either book.

[Zedman1991]

worrywort, on 20 January 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

You should listen to me and only me on this issue. Ignore even the people who agree 100% with me! Just for the record, the references to SW in the last couple MBotF are few and somewhat oblique. They could be counted as spoilers, but there's a 50/50 chance you won't spot them or won't understand them, and that when you read the ICE books you'll just be like "Ohhhhh that's what it meant."

NoK: spoils something hinted at in GotM and elaborated in DH, and introduces characters seen in TBH.
RotCG: will be spoiled by TTH in terms of some events and characters, and features relatively important events that are referred to in DoD in a roundabout way but would certainly count as spoilers if you get them.
SW: I'd say you could read this one before or after DoD/TCG. They are kinda more complimentary than chronological. The main issue would be in spoiling your expectations/guesses/hopes for what you'll see in either book.

i think ill be alright. it will probably be 6 months before i can start rotcg (i already read nok) so a lot of the small hints won't spoil too much. im on page 652 of my TtH reread so i cant really stop rotcg spoilers now.

[Zedman1991]

off topic of the original thing but the first time i read this book i missed like half of the significance of all the convergences in the end. I expected i knew most of the events, but i had nooooo idea mother dark had turned back to the andii. It was a good ending. the first time i read it i thought TtH was a bit more corny than the other books, or not as good, but it was very good this time around.

[tiam]

worrywort, on 20 January 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

You should listen to me and only me on this issue. Ignore even the people who agree 100% with me! Just for the record, the references to SW in the last couple MBotF are few and somewhat oblique. They could be counted as spoilers, but there's a 50/50 chance you won't spot them or won't understand them, and that when you read the ICE books you'll just be like "Ohhhhh that's what it meant."

NoK: spoils something hinted at in GotM and elaborated in DH, and introduces characters seen in TBH.
RotCG: will be spoiled by TTH in terms of some events and characters, and features relatively important events that are referred to in DoD in a roundabout way but would certainly count as spoilers if you get them.
SW: I'd say you could read this one before or after DoD/TCG. They are kinda more complimentary than chronological. The main issue would be in spoiling your expectations/guesses/hopes for what you'll see in either book.

ROTCG spoiler

Spoiler

I actually meant that in TTH Erekos death is mentioned on more than one occasion.

[worry]

Indeed, you may offer the same product, but I want to monopolize the market for maximum profit.

[sting01]

Zedman1991, on 07 January 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

To make sure it doesn't get closed, could we then move this topic towards discussing why and how all of the old guard managed to survive when originally we were told that laseen had them killed? i can see why they survived, being fairly powerful people, but i'm surprised that laseen did not make sure she finished the job. That's a pretty big mistake by the claw as well, who other than dealing with kalam seem to do fairly well (assuming i haven't forgotten MORE about the books previously, which considering the amount of information is very easy).

Laseen policies were three folds :

retired the old guards, even with extreme prejudice if necessary (case of Toc the elder in RotCG), disorganise (even forcefully) the organisations that might proove more loyal to the Kellanved that to the Empire (as seen in NOK, and in DG for both removal and parse utilisation , so my wording 'disorganise' and not destruction). A parralel can be made with Napoleon Marshals; who were consistently removed from the chain of command and place 'in reserve' untill the real thing arrives.

Inversion of the chains of commands, with a double purpose : make sure people who knows will be on the field when needed (case WJ as explained several time); and test 'direct live' as we use to say in France of potentials talents (military or political). One must not forget people need to feel they can climb the social ladder (Korbottle Dom discussion with Urko in ROTCG). Historically, it is when the social order was static that the HRE was the most vulnerable; while even during long InterRegnum the same HRE did have quite some powers in the european theatre.

Culling of Nobles. Historically nobles mostly want stability (as in statis) because it is the period where they are able to reverse the balance of power (nobles are those who pay the blood taxes, and for the blood they shred on thefields they are given some token advantages). They need to convert what was exceptional advantages (based on specific duties made by forefather) into normal and regular duty for the state. So culling was reversing that tendency, allowing some houses (Paran is an exemple) to not only confirm but even increase said advantages but based on contemporary exceptional duties to the Empire made by one or several members of the houses. For the others, well ottaral mines need arms, if not, I am sure the growing of rice around 7 cities can use some of them (but nowhere near Raraky, it would be too much piece of cake).

To keep a similarity with Napoleon, the old guards, even freindly to the Throne, may proove quickly a huge problem to the Throne : Murat, who were the most faithfull follower of Napoleon , was also the man who started in 1815 the war against the allies , and was responsible for (indirectly) for Waterloo (Napoleon was trying to explain he did not want war anymore, while Murat was ragging campaign in Italy!). So send them wherever they wanted, doing whatever they wanted as long as it was far, discreet, without relation with the Empire wasfine (Cartheron does have Imperial commission...)

[tiam]

sting01, on 25 January 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Zedman1991, on 07 January 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

To make sure it doesn't get closed, could we then move this topic towards discussing why and how all of the old guard managed to survive when originally we were told that laseen had them killed? i can see why they survived, being fairly powerful people, but i'm surprised that laseen did not make sure she finished the job. That's a pretty big mistake by the claw as well, who other than dealing with kalam seem to do fairly well (assuming i haven't forgotten MORE about the books previously, which considering the amount of information is very easy).

Laseen policies were three folds :

retired the old guards, even with extreme prejudice if necessary (case of Toc the elder in RotCG), disorganise (even forcefully) the organisations that might proove more loyal to the Kellanved that to the Empire (as seen in NOK, and in DG for both removal and parse utilisation , so my wording 'disorganise' and not destruction). A parralel can be made with Napoleon Marshals; who were consistently removed from the chain of command and place 'in reserve' untill the real thing arrives.

Inversion of the chains of commands, with a double purpose : make sure people who knows will be on the field when needed (case WJ as explained several time); and test 'direct live' as we use to say in France of potentials talents (military or political). One must not forget people need to feel they can climb the social ladder (Korbottle Dom discussion with Urko in ROTCG). Historically, it is when the social order was static that the HRE was the most vulnerable; while even during long InterRegnum the same HRE did have quite some powers in the european theatre.

Culling of Nobles. Historically nobles mostly want stability (as in statis) because it is the period where they are able to reverse the balance of power (nobles are those who pay the blood taxes, and for the blood they shred on thefields they are given some token advantages). They need to convert what was exceptional advantages (based on specific duties made by forefather) into normal and regular duty for the state. So culling was reversing that tendency, allowing some houses (Paran is an exemple) to not only confirm but even increase said advantages but based on contemporary exceptional duties to the Empire made by one or several members of the houses. For the others, well ottaral mines need arms, if not, I am sure the growing of rice around 7 cities can use some of them (but nowhere near Raraky, it would be too much piece of cake).

To keep a similarity with Napoleon, the old guards, even freindly to the Throne, may proove quickly a huge problem to the Throne : Murat, who were the most faithfull follower of Napoleon , was also the man who started in 1815 the war against the allies , and was responsible for (indirectly) for Waterloo (Napoleon was trying to explain he did not want war anymore, while Murat was ragging campaign in Italy!). So send them wherever they wanted, doing whatever they wanted as long as it was far, discreet, without relation with the Empire wasfine (Cartheron does have Imperial commission...)

Relying too much on historical examples but a good effort. Its actually a question of how they survived until the rebellion I think

Quite simply Laseen allowed them to walk away, apart from Dassem who were told was a direct threat to the throne. Urko, Cartheron, Ameron and Toc could all leave. Moss states that Laseen could let them live aslong as they stayed away. It was only when they tried to start a rebellion that Laseen acted. As for other Old Guard who stayed with Laseen being culled thats a different story. The culling of the Old Guard in GOTM is different from that in MOI, WJ based inverted command structure theory seemss false to even WJ in MOI and he acknowledges that it was probably to have him killed esp. in the tunnels under Pale, as he was also a claimant to the throne.Tay, Duiker, Nok, Dujek, Coltaine and others were held in readiness or used efficiently. The motivations of Laseen changed not as a result of policy but as a result of SE changing it himself. The Old Guard were fine aslong as they lived sheletered isolated lives like Urko and Toc.

[Abyss]

There's also a very deliberate disconnect between what people thought and what actually happened.

Laseen didn't set out to wholesale purge the Old Guard. Nok, Tays and Dujek all hung around. But of the 'old OLD Guard' the people who formed the Empire with Kel and Dancer,
Urko and Kartheron faked their own deaths because they didn't want to hang around, mostly because things weren't as glorious under Laseen as they were under Kellanved.

By all appearances Laseen did have her Claw try to take Dassem out, likely to eliminate him as a rival before Kel and Dancer came back

Some of them started to agitate against her and had to run for it, likely spreading rumours about their deaths - Ameron, Toc the Elder, Hawl come to mind.

But in the minds of some, there was this massive purge of the Old Guard - which likely DID happen, but most of the key players faked their own deaths and went into hiding. We just don't get a list of names of everyone else who was taken out.

Attrition in battle also took out large numbers of mages and veterans, which was probably blamed on Laseen and may have been partly accurate.

Tye point is, every time someone mentions the purge of the Old Guard in the books they almost never know everything.

[tiam]

^This

Plus as Nok points out in HOC who would believe them? Urko, Cartheron and Ameron all left because they knew theyd be implicated in Laseens attempt on ST and Cotillion.