[QuickTidal]

Malankazooie, on 26 October 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 October 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 25 October 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 25 October 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 25 October 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

As far as the "graphic detail":

Spoiler

Wasn't the death of Glenn pretty much verbatim on how it went down in the comic? Drooping eye and all? With Negan so called "spouting off"?

So I guess if you dislike the comic, you'll not like how they pretty much copied it exactly how it went down in the comic for television?

No, that was my point. The comic handled this in gruesome, but short order. It didn't lollygag on it for a whole episode.

According to Scott Gimple and Robert Kirkman on the Talking Dead after show, they really wanted to convey that this season is a reset. Everything before Negan (seasons 1 to 6) and every thing after Negan (season 7 to season ?). So I think that is why they included the extras:

Spoiler

Added death of Abraham, Negan forcing Rick to take a little trip with him to break him down, Carl's arm almost chopped off by Rick...etc.

All added to leave no doubt that Rick is no longer the leader/badass that takes no guff from human threats. Instead now, a broken shell that will satisfy Negan's requests for what ever he needs.

I loathe Gimple...the guy does stupid ass things as a writer....and then jumps into the media and basically tells everyone what his intentions were....no, if you were a better writer Gimple you would not have to explain yourself.

Kirkman is little better. The only writer I know who hates that people come to love his characters.

I'm also not willing to buy that they needed a whole episode to do what took the comic 3 pages. Most reviews that are hard on the ep seem to agree with me that it didn't need to be an hour of basically the one point. That was excessive and indulgent.

Yeah, I don't know. I think if they would have covered the Negan brutality in just like the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the hour and then moved on to something else (like Carol and Morgan at The Kingdom), I dunno, I think it would have watered down the impact and the breaking down of Rick that it accomplished (or even lamer, if they would have jumped back between the two). It was brutal sure, and I didn't need Gimple or Kirkman to explain what they were accomplishing with the episode. When they stated such on Talking Dead, they did so matter of factly, meaning they got that the audience got what they were trying to do.

They were both doing the rounds after the finale caused so much ire...and now they are doing the rounds "explaining" about the premiere being so overly gruesome and why it needed to be a whole hour....none of which I buy.

I dunno, I think I'm just sick of the rinse & Repeat of this show every season..with blue-ball inducing cliffhangers and fake-out shenanigans...I'm very very close to done with this nonsense.

[worry]

I understand being sick of the pattern, I just don't think this episode was an example of that. This is a show that did something daring and awesome (had the lead character's baby potentially get eaten by zombies) and then chickened out on even that. That kind of lame-brained stuff was baked into the show from early on. And the show's still gonna do the same thing it always does, most likely, but at least Negan is an actual villain and not one of the Keystone Cops they've come up against over and over. If that bat gets put on a shelf for the bulk of the season while these characters sit around arguing with Crazy Rick, then I'd agree with you.

[Malankazooie]

I agree with the rinse and repeat tedium/frustration with the show, I get it. Believe me, I see the flaws and am frustrated by them just like the rest of you. I think maybe this whole "reset" with Negan is a way to delve into new territory with this kind of show. We'll see where it goes I guess.

[Edit]: Also, you have to stay on board long enough to see the tiger. I mean come on, how cool is (hopefully) that gonna be? Better not be obvious CGI though!

Anyway, what do you guys think will become of:

Spoiler

Daryl? One possibility I see is that he eventually is "brainwashed" to become an adversary to his group, or that he will give the impression that he is until the time is right to strike at Negan.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 26 October 2016 - 09:32 PM

[worry]

Spoiler

There is no Daryl. His name is Reek!

[acesn8s]

I think Daryl will escape. We're going to need some uplifting characters to balance out broken Rick.

[Mezla PigDog]

Just had a double bill of the opening two episodes. We had to pause it as our dinner arrived halfway through episode 1 and we decided against putting it back on until after we had finished eating. Crap-a-rama. We're a bit traumatised even after fluffy episode 2.

[QuickTidal]

After flat out HATING the finale last season and the epilogue to that (AKA the season 7 premiere) this season...the second episode, THE WELL, focused on Morgan and Carol in The Kingdom was FANTASTIC and quite possibly one of the best eps they've ever done (not written by Gimple...susprise surprise...LOL).

It hearkened back to the early episodes that focused on the characters with regards to development, interaction, and dealing with the outside problems (in this case both the walkers and Negan and his Saviors) and didn't try to cash in on cheap tricks, overt gore, or bad storytelling hitches...it was straight up solid narrative and character development for an hour.

This just further exacerbates the mistake they made in splitting up the Negan meeting and result between last seasons finale and this ones premiere....for a cheap-ass, Dallas-esque cliffhanger.

They should have aired both Negan eps last season, and started S7 with the optimistic, new chapter feel of the Kingdom ep. Honestly, airing mistakes can REALLY screw up the flow of a show (look at Doctor Who S6 where Steven Moffat thought it would be smart to split his season up [also on a stupid cliffhanger] with a three month gap in between...something that to this day has be derided by everyone involved as a massive airing mistake)...so whoever thought that splitting the Negan bit over a summer instead of the fresh feeling of THE WELL as the premiere is dumb as a post. Now, of course that didn't matter to the ratings as people tuned in anyways....but narratively, it was dumb as shit to do that.

Anyways, THE WELL pulled me right back in. King Ezekiel is EXACTLY as excellent as I thought he'd be....up to and including his late-game reveal scene with Carol. In fact, ALL the character interactions scenes felt very rewarding here. I think especially Carol, whose fake-ass good girl act is grating-AF....to have her called out on it..and maybe have her mind changed a bit by Ezekiel....was perfect. LOVED the ending shot too.

Loved this ep. Can't say enough good things.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 02 November 2016 - 02:45 PM

[Malankazooie]

I don't know, the Negan cliffhanger and then the premiere devoted to resolving that didn't bug me. If cliffhangers weren't effective they wouldn't be used anymore. Besides, as pointed out, it didn't prevent people from coming back to see what happened (even though they bitched and moaned about it all summer).

I liked The Well episode, but I take some minor issues with it. I wish they wouldn't have reveled Ezekiel's truth so early. Keeping up the fantasy for another episode or two would have hit the sweet spot for his development.

Also, the Carol character is starting to annoy me. I mean, what does moving into her own house down the road outside the protection of The Kingdom accomplish? I guess it's for those times when Ezekiel wants make a discreet booty call? Or just so she is close enough to reap the benefits of The Kingdom's resources (ie. tasty pomegranates delivered so she'll give that booty up?).

[worry]

It accomplishes isolation, which is her goal, with the compromise of easing some people's worries.

[Malankazooie]

I guess I can buy that, but didn't she already do the isolation thing when Rick banned her for killing Tyreese's lover? I guess that wasn't of her own choosing though.

It's hard to accept that she is all distraught over all the killing she has done (which is hard to buy in the brutal reality that is apocalypse survival) and so she has this sort of death wish to go it on her own to meet her fate. I think it a setup so Carol can swoop on in and save the day again. Which sort of supports that the show is stuck on this "rinse and repeat" cycle.

[worry]

I actually don't like the "softening" of Carol story line much either. In the broader view though it makes sense: Carol loses her abusive husband, and all she has left is her daughter, who then wanders off and gets taken by zombies. There's further group/family attrition and Carol hardens herself to become purely "practical" in a utilitarian sense. Doing what must be done for the greater good of all. I liked that the show had one ruthless, unsentimental "good guy" -- especially since I hate almost every other character -- so I balked at her sudden turn last season. But it makes sense that the facade would crack eventually, especially after the one-two-three punch of the Wolves, the zombies, and the Saviors. She's really someone in a state of PTSD. As is often the case on this show though, the storyboards are better than the scripts, by which I mean the long game tends to be solid (more or less) while the scripts tend to be terrible. That said, I liked both of the last episodes despite their flaws (e.g. the long haired Savior doofus and the supposedly experienced "knight" getting in a cat fight for no reason other than our characters are finally there to witness it).

[acesn8s]

I Got Crabs, on 03 November 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

As a show only fan I liked the explanation in this ep. I was already like wtf is this shit. It would have been way to much if it went on further.

Agreed, King E's campy ren faire dialog was getting on my nerves. I was relieved to see him drop his act.

I'm OK with Carol's isolation (and loved the Persephone/pomegranate symbolism), because I'm hoping we'll see her do her Batman thing again to help take down the Saviors.

[QuickTidal]

Malankazooie, on 02 November 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

If cliffhangers weren't effective they wouldn't be used anymore.

The problem isn't that a cliff-hanger was used. I'm fine with well crafted cliffhangers. The problem is that it was an old hackneyed 80's style whodunnit cliff-hanger. The entire episode was about "trapping" Rick and Co. while they were on their way to get Maggie help...followed by Negan collecting them up and giving his little pre-Lucille speech and stupid rhyme and then they literally PULL THE PUNCH. If that were just the small (tune in next week) cliffhanger and we found out the following week what happened and to who, I would have forgiven it. I honestly would have. But hinging your season finale on a "Who did he kill?!" cliffhanger beat....after spending the entire goddamned episode leading up to that? If that's not the biggest, and stupidest mistake in recent TV writing, then I don't know what is.

But we can even break it down by using some random finale cliffhanger examples of other shows in juxtaposition.

FLASH Season 1 finale

Spoiler

Barry and the crew put a plan together to finally stop Reverse Flash/Harrison Wells...it only sort of works, and in the end it takes a sacrifice by Eddie to defeat him. But in the final moments of the episode, the initial plan has caused a wormhole to open over Central City and only Barry can stop it. He gathers his speed and bolts up into it. Credits.

Still a cliffhanger, but not one that leaves you without resolution to the episode's main conceit.

FRIENDS Season 4 finale

Spoiler

Ross and his friends, barring Rachel and Pheobe, have gathered in London to see him marry his whirlwind romance Emily. The episode focuses on two plot lines, that of the church where the wedding was supposed to be held being knocked down early, and Rachel realizing she loves Ross and travelling to London (and annoying Hugh Laurie) to tell him. She doesn't tell him. He is happy she came. During the ceremony he says Rachel's name in place of Emily's at the altar. Credits.

Still a cliffhanger, but not one that leaves you without resolution to the episode's main conceit.

GREYS ANATOMY Season 5 finale

Spoiler

The entire episode focuses on Izzie's attempt to deal with her mostly inoperable brain timor, and a young man who jumped in front of a bus to save a woman's life, but was severely injured in the process. The episode ends with Izzie dying before Derek can perform a risky surgery to remove her tumor, and it is revealed that the man who jumped in front of the bus and was unrecognizably injured was their friend and co-worker George, who also passes away.

Still a cliffhanger, but not one that leaves you without resolution to the episode's main conceit.

LOST Season 3 finale

Spoiler

Jack's plan to kill the Others backfires, and a small group heads to a radio tower to turn off Danielle's old repeating radio transmission which keeps them from contacting off the island to the boat Naomi claims is Penny Widmore's. Once this is done, Charlie and Desmond are in the underwater radio station, and Charlie ends up locking himself in the radio room to make contact without the Other's stopping him. Desmond is briefly knocked out while this happens. He makes contact and Penny herself tells him that she's nothing to do with Naomi's boat. Other, Mikhail detonates a grenade and the radio room begins to fill with water, Desmond knocks him out...and as Charlie drowns he writes on his hand and holds it up to the porthole "Not Penny's Boat", so that Desmond can warn everyone that the boat does not belong to his Penny, but to someone else, and possibly dangerous. Lastly it is revealed that the "flashbacks" in the episode are actually flashforwards with Kate finally agreeing to meet with Jack, and him telling her they made a mistake and have to go back to the island.

Still a cliffhanger, but not one that leaves you without resolution to the episode's main conceit.

^^These are just a few examples of shows that pulled off modern, well-written cliffhangers that did NOT depend on the plot of that specific episode as a whole with regards to resolution, and more often than not just offered up some new tantalizing morsel of a thing to think about over the summer.

The whodunnit? (or in TWD's case, Whodidhekill?) cliff-hanger is some 1980's Dallas who shot JR bullshit, that should never be employed to halfway smart audiences in 2015/16.

But seriously, think about the fact that the entire episode is constructed around building to Negan (hell, the previous few episodes largely focused on that too)...only to not resolve that specific thing in the finale?

No, reveal the deaths, the cliff-hanger that keeps us tuning in the next season is wonder why, and what this will do to everyone going forward, how this changes the dynamic....all of that. But no, Gimple and Kirkman have basically decided everyone is too attention-deficit-disorder and too stupid to tune in unless they give us a "whodunnit". I'm VERY glad there was such an uproar about it...there should be. It was BAD TV plain and simple.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 03 November 2016 - 01:05 PM

[Tattersail_]

Never thought of it that way but well put forward. I did not mind as I talked with friends about it in the coming months but I see your point.

[worry]

On the one hand, you're right; TWD is run by hacks, and it shows time and again. On the other hand, you were gonna find out who died in a few months anyway, unless you were planning to die yourself over the summer break. It ain't exactly a 100-year time capsule.

[Tattersail_]

Never thought of it that way but well put forward. I did not mind as I talked with friends about it in the coming months but I see your point.

[worry]

You posting your greatest hits?

[Malankazooie]

Didn't The Simpsons do a Dallas-esque cliffhanger with who shot Mr. Burns? I mean, I guess they were taking a piss out of Dallas and all and it was many years ago, but I don't know, The Walking Dead cliffhanger didn't really bother me.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a big fan of TWD Negan cliffhanger, it just didn't raise my blood pressure like so many others. I mean, I guess the other examples cited above of how cliffhangers are done in the year 2016 are well, cliffhangers and all, but who's to say how one show should handle cliffhangers versus another. If you want to leave your fans raging about it on social media over a summer break, hey, at least they are talking. And those same "fans" (and then some) all came back for the brutal full 60min of gratuitous violent head bashing and Negan pontificating about how thirsty Lucille is and how "he took it like a champ" and how "that shit is gross" and the

Spoiler

"I'll find you Maggie" comment by droopy eyed Glenn.

BTW, the biggest gut punch wasn't the head bashing, instead it was the end of the episode where a what if scenario is presented

Spoiler

Where the group is all at a summery picnic, with Glenn holding his and Maggie's son and Abraham sitting in the chair next to Glenn, smiling, laughing. Man, I had to reach for the Kleenex with that scene.

[Tattersail_]

worry, on 03 November 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

You posting your greatest hits?

😁

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Loved episode 2. Ezekiel is brilliant - if he dies at any point in the future I'm going to be very cross!

Was nice to see Carol drop the act a little - I've pretty much hated the character since "Look at me I make cookies, I'm a good little housewife" in Alexandria.