[Gatekeeper]

Just wondering, how old do you think the main characters are? ( or anyone else you want to take a stan at) I'm thinking Fiddler, Kalam, QB (hehehe), Apaalar, Felisin, Crokus and so on.... Any guesses?

[Hocknose]

If we just look at GOTM as a starting point, in my mind they are:

Kalam: mid 30's
QB: ealry 30's
Fiddler: late 30's
Apsalar: 16 aren't we told that?
Crokus: 16-18
Felisin: in DG isn't she 15?
WhiskeyJack, Dujek and Tayschrenn I'm sure there age has been extended due to alchemy or sorcery whatever but I picture them to all look around early to mid 40's.
Laseen: same as above but I think of her 29-30
Duiker & Heboric: 50's
Coltaine: 40ish
Bult: 45
Tavore: 23

[James Hutton]

It is mentioned in GotM that Dujek is 79 years of age.

[Puck]

Duiker is in his 70's, iirc.

Also, it's mentioned that Dujek is 79 but looks like in his 50's.

This post has been edited by Robin Goodfellow: 19 August 2011 - 11:56 AM

[Illuyankas]

Main Imass characters: 300,000ish
Main Andii characters (save Nimander and co): 400,000-500,000ish

[Aptorian]

The Old Family are over a hundred years old.

Kelanved could be 200 years older or more for all we know. Same with Tayschren.

Dancer, Surly, the Crusts, Nok, Dassem, etc. should also be around 130-150 something years old. Maybe more.

This estimate we can make based on these people being the leaders of the Malazan Empire at the time when they ousted Prinze Kazz from Unta. The Crimson Guards vow is over a hundred years old at the time of the latest books. Before the Malazan Empire took Quon Tali they had already been made into a fighting force by Kelanved when they beat the old Pirate king or what ever he was and took Malaz and the Falari Isles.

Based on that you can guess that the original Crimson Guard inner cirle are well over a hundred years old. They're probably as old as the Old Guard.

As for the hang arounds, Duiker, Toc the Elder, Heboric, Dujek, etc. are probably all in their 60s or 70s.

Whiskey jack is not from their generation. He never hung out in the deadhouse or something like that. How ever all the original BBs seem to have gained some longevity or "potential" from their trek through Raraku. It is not unlikely that they are all a bit older than they seem. I would guess that WJ was in his late 40s early 50s, but it's hard to tell because 50 years old was really fucking old in a "roman era" style civilization.

Kallor is at least 130,000 years old but considering the power and ressources he's had he could be even older. He could be one of the first Humans for all we know.

The Errant is probably just as old as Kallor if not more. He was a human that became a Master of the Tiles and ascended to Godhood when he was worshipped in the First Empire days. He could pre-date the First Empire. We just don't know much about what kind of humans existed before this time.

Most of the old, old Elder Gods could be half a million years older or more.

The Tiste that lived before the sundering of Emuhrlan are at least 300,000 years old, since the Ritual of Tellan had not taken place by then. They could be even older, 400-500,000 years for all we know.

[Whiskey Bass]

but if Whiskeyjack is 30 or 40 years younger than Dujek, then how could it be that
Whiskeyjack could have been the senior in rank if not for politics ?

[Aptorian]

Skill? Accomplishments? The favor of the Emperor? Lots of things could have impacted WJs rise through the ranks. It is evident in GotM and MoI that WJ is a man of impressive character.

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, the Empire slipping from a meritocracy is one of the reasons all the Culls happened.

[Whiskey Bass]

so whats with the Surly thing then? in the prologueof Gotm he seemed to have a very personal attitude with her,
if he was a johnny come lately then why the hostile familiarity? Surly would have already advanced in the ranks enouth to command some sort of respect from a grunt (well liked and extreemly competant or not)

also i may have misunderstood, but i got the impression that Whiskejack and Dujeck were both Fists who were eligable for the role of High Fist, Whiskeyjack turned it down so Dujeck took the post. Advancement to Fist would have took some time meritocracy or not.

so i think Whiskeyjack was probably already a very young periphery character in the early days of empire planning an Malaz Isle, and imo theres no reason to suggest that Whiskeyjack didnt go into the deadhouse with Kellenved etc

imo

[Whiskey Bass]

so therefore i reckon Whiskeyjack was in his mid sixties..........i think




ive just had a brainwave,(3 Aam stonage) i dont know at what point in the history Kellenved etc enter the deadhouse, but if its during the userping of Malaz isle from Mock, then that says to me that (crazy theory comming)......

Kellenved has been studying the Azath and asscendancy for possibly hundreds of years, he forms a plan, and recruits from some of the exeptionaly capable pirates, merc's and freebooters who frequent the notorious pirate haven.

as part of Kellenveds plan they take up residence in the Deadhouse, which invests new abbilities or exagerates existing ones, slows down the aging process(arn't Toc the Elder and Urko Crust well preserved age wise aswell) and puts them all on the first rungs of ascenancy,

ie Urko's incredible strength, Surlys and Dancers precision, poise and speed and Whiskeyjacks charisma etc

This also explains to me why they were so goddamngood in the first place, the sucsess they had and their stuborn refusal to die no matter how many battles they go through.

crazy maybe......but it makes sense to me

This post has been edited by j2tks: 20 August 2011 - 02:26 AM

[Aptorian]

j2tks, on 20 August 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

so whats with the Surly thing then? in the prologueof Gotm he seemed to have a very personal attitude with her,
if he was a johnny come lately then why the hostile familiarity? Surly would have already advanced in the ranks enouth to command some sort of respect from a grunt (well liked and extreemly competant or not)

This is the Malazan army we're talking about here. The Malazan people. You don't get respect just because you get a promotion. You certainly don't get the respect of Whiskeyjack by usurping a throne, killing or driving away they most talented people in the empire, setting fore to a city district and killing of most of the best ressource of mages in the empire.

Think of the way Whiskeyjack acts in the presence of Kallor and Caladan Brood. This is not a man who lets seniority or authority cow him.

j2tks, on 20 August 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

also i may have misunderstood, but i got the impression that Whiskejack and Dujeck were both Fists who were eligable for the role of High Fist, Whiskeyjack turned it down so Dujeck took the post. Advancement to Fist would have took some time meritocracy or not.

Whiskeyjack had reached at least the level of fist, can't remember if it was High fist. At one point he was the superior of Dujek in the military ranks. Then Surly reversed the command structure. If you want to believe MOI it seems that she didn't do it to punish him but to make sure that he was at the right place and the right point (which is a really bizarre kind of planning).

But this does make an interesting point. At the time of the prologue of GotM, had Whiskeyjack already been demoted? Or was he both to rise to High Fist and get demoted in the span of the next ten years? Sounds like too short a timespan.

j2tks, on 20 August 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

so i think Whiskeyjack was probably already a very young periphery character in the early days of empire planning an Malaz Isle, and imo theres no reason to suggest that Whiskeyjack didnt go into the deadhouse with Kellenved etc

imo

Whiskeyjack is just not this old. There's never been any suggestion that he is as old or older than Dujek. Furthermore his little sister is only in her 20s. Unless you want to suggest that whiskeyjack's parents were also living in the Deadhouse then this does not fit.

On a different topic, I can't recall. How old were we guessing the Edur were from Midnight Tides? How old is Trull? Do they have very long lifespans or do they age like a human?

[Illuyankas]

Edur live for thousands if not tens of thousands, I think Udinaas comments on it. They don't live as long as the Andii though, I remember that much.

Also coughHarlloisfivecough

[Whiskey Bass]

Nyapt Cat, on 20 August 2011 - 03:27 AM, said:

Furthermore his little sister is only in her 20s. Unless you want to suggest that whiskeyjack's parents were also living in the Deadhouse then this does not fit.

On a different topic, I can't recall. How old were we guessing the Edur were from Midnight Tides? How old is Trull? Do they have very long lifespans or do they age like a human?

damn forgot about her

and i definatly see the Edur as living for centuries at least, but is Rhulad young, like 20 or is he young for an Edur like 40 or 60 ?

[D'rek]

Nyapt Cat, on 19 August 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

The Old Family are over a hundred years old.

Kelanved could be 200 years older or more for all we know. Same with Tayschren.

Dancer, Surly, the Crusts, Nok, Dassem, etc. should also be around 130-150 something years old. Maybe more.

This estimate we can make based on these people being the leaders of the Malazan Empire at the time when they ousted Prinze Kazz from Unta. The Crimson Guards vow is over a hundred years old at the time of the latest books. Didn't they swear the vow at their Citadel on the south edge of the Fenn range (and therefore much later after Kazz was ousted from Unta/Gris/Avore, etc. But anyways, yeah ab bit over 100 years since the Vow - I think the end of the Diaspora in RotCG is supposed to be 100 years since the Vow or since the start of the Diaspora (approximately or exactly) Before the Malazan Empire took Quon Tali they had already been made into a fighting force by Kelanved when they beat the old Pirate king or what ever he was and took Malaz and the Falari Isles. I don't think they took the Falari Isles right away, that was after taking parts/most of Quon Tali.

Based on that you can guess that the original Crimson Guard inner cirle are well over a hundred years old. They're probably as old as the Old Guard. There are a lot of early CrG leaders who were killed fighting the Empire, especially by Dassem, so they were probably the older ones who were already in high ranking positions when the Vow happened - Shirdar, Keal, etc. Stoop would be one of the few from among this generation still living, he's probably 160 or more. The rest of the CrG seem to have mostly been regular/low-ranking Guardsmen and have risen in rank due to the growing size of the Guard and the death of the previous high-rankers, hence why you still have lots of Avowed who haven't risen in rank and are just squad members. These folks would likely be a bit younger than the original Avowed commanders, 120 - 140ish.

As for the hang arounds, Duiker, Toc the Elder, Heboric, Dujek, etc. are probably all in their 60s or 70s. Admiral Nok's speech to Tavore in HoC very clearly defines the Kellanved "Family" - Kel, Dancer, Surly, Urko, Cartheron, Nok, Hawl, Dassem, Toc the Elder, Dujek, Tayschrenn, Ameron and Duiker. He calls them "The Family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. " However, this whole bit could be severely in doubt since he claims Hawl died taking Malaz Island and we know that's not true. If they were all there for the taking of Malaz Island, though, then all the Family is over 100 years old. In Dujek's case, you have to consider the 70-something years comment from Tattersail as simply her mistaken opinion (even though she, being over 200, should know better). Heboric, OTOH, seems to have lived his life unaffected by aging-preventing elixirs and deadhouses, so 70ish seems about right.

Whiskey jack is not from their generation. He never hung out in the deadhouse or something like that. How ever all the original BBs seem to have gained some longevity or "potential" from their trek through Raraku. It is not unlikely that they are all a bit older than they seem. I would guess that WJ was in his late 40s early 50s, but it's hard to tell because 50 years old was really fucking old in a "roman era" style civilization. Unlike Rome, though, the Malaz world has magic healing and Denul elixirs that can slow your aging. They might not be available to the common people, but they are to military commanders of the largest empire in the world. For WJ, I think it's best to consider the events he's been involved in and his sister. Dunsparrow is his half sister, and based on the idea of Fiddler bouncing her on his knee (and Fid being younger or about the same age as WJ) Dunsparrow seems like she'd be 10-20 years younger than WJ, which is okay since she's his half-sister and who knows what's gone on with their parents (ie: WJ's dad conceives him when he's 17, then remarries and has another kid when he's 35 {and dies while Dunsparrow's mom is pregnant}).

Kallor is at least 130,000 years old but considering the power and ressources he's had he could be even older. He could be one of the first Humans for all we know.

The Errant is probably just as old as Kallor if not more. He was a human that became a Master of the Tiles and ascended to Godhood when he was worshipped in the First Empire days. He could pre-date the First Empire. We just don't know much about what kind of humans existed before this time.

Most of the old, old Elder Gods could be half a million years older or more.

The Tiste that lived before the sundering of Emuhrlan are at least 300,000 years old, since the Ritual of Tellan had not taken place by then. They could be even older, 400-500,000 years for all we know. Among the Andii, Korlat, Orfantal, Serrat, the Priestess, Endest Silann and maybe Spinnock are the only ones who have been with Rake since the sundering, I think. But even then, magic may have some influence the same as humans - Korlat and Orfantal are dragons, Endest and Serrat are major mages and the Priestess is a major priestess. That being said, we've never seen an Andii die of old age so it's hard to guess whether there really is an upper limit or where it might be.

Comments on Apt's comments above in fuschia^^

Quote

j2tks, on 20 August 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

also i may have misunderstood, but i got the impression that Whiskejack and Dujeck were both Fists who were eligable for the role of High Fist, Whiskeyjack turned it down so Dujeck took the post. Advancement to Fist would have took some time meritocracy or not.

Whiskeyjack had reached at least the level of fist, can't remember if it was High fist. At one point he was the superior of Dujek in the military ranks. Then Surly reversed the command structure. If you want to believe MOI it seems that she didn't do it to punish him but to make sure that he was at the right place and the right point (which is a really bizarre kind of planning).

But this does make an interesting point. At the time of the prologue of GotM, had Whiskeyjack already been demoted? Or was he both to rise to High Fist and get demoted in the span of the next ten years? Sounds like too short a timespan.

In the GotM prologue I don't think they ever called him "High Fist" or "Fist", using instead the generic "commander" if anything. Even if they called him "Fist" it could be a short-form of "High Fist" (especially from Laseen).

BUT, WJ does order Fiddler to dispatch Dujek and some forces. There's always special possibilities but in general that should indicate he is superior to Dujek.

Now, the army in Malaz City in the GotM prologue is the 2nd Army, within which are the BBs. Maybe there's additional forces present as well. Transports are showing up to take the whole army to Genabackis the next day. This is either the very start of the Genabackan campaign, or very early in it and they are reinforcing Malaz forces already there (5th army if there were any).

BUT, another interesting point is that a very, very short time ago WJ was a "sub-commander" of the Third Army at the battle of Y'Ghatan.

So, there's a lot of possibilities, take your pick.

IMO: WJ is born around 1110 to 1120, is apprenticed to a mason in his pre-teen/early teens, rescues Dunsparrow from Hood's Temple around the age of 15-20, people are pissed so he flees to the recruiting office. Joins the army, is a common soldier for a bit, gets promoted to Corporal, then Sergeant then makes Captain and by this point is in the 2nd Army in 7C if he wasn't already. Gets sent in pursuit of the mages after a battle, they all become BBs and he captains said BBs for a while. WJ gets promoted out of the BBs (and 2nd army) to be a Fist of the 3rd army (Fist being "sub-commander" as he's lower than a High Fist/First Sword - and there were 3 "sub-commanders" {Amaron, Choss, WJ} which is a good number of Fists for an army). After Y'Ghatan he was immediately re-assigned and promoted to High Fist of the 2nd Army for its invasion of Genabackis in 1154. The Return happens later that year and Laseen takes the throne. Whether immediately or not, she demotes WJ to Fist and promotes Dujek to High Fist of the 2nd, sends the 5th and reformed 6th armies and continues demoting WJ over the next 10 years, bringing us up to GotM.

Also, note that Dujek was commander of the BBs AFTER WJ (with Korbolo Dom in between), so Dujek was at least certainly lower-ranked than WJ until that point, barring any very strange demotions. Makes sense then for Dujek to still be ranked lower by the GotM prologue.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 20 August 2011 - 04:56 PM

[Aptorian]

D, on 20 August 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

Nyapt Cat, on 19 August 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

As for the hang arounds, Duiker, Toc the Elder, Heboric, Dujek, etc. are probably all in their 60s or 70s. Admiral Nok's speech to Tavore in HoC very clearly defines the Kellanved "Family" - Kel, Dancer, Surly, Urko, Cartheron, Nok, Hawl, Dassem, Toc the Elder, Dujek, Tayschrenn, Ameron and Duiker. He calls them "The Family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. " However, this whole bit could be severely in doubt since he claims Hawl died taking Malaz Island and we know that's not true. If they were all there for the taking of Malaz Island, though, then all the Family is over 100 years old. In Dujek's case, you have to consider the 70-something years comment from Tattersail as simply her mistaken opinion (even though she, being over 200, should know better). Heboric, OTOH, seems to have lived his life unaffected by aging-preventing elixirs and deadhouses, so 70ish seems about right.

There is a reference somewhere, if I recall correctly, to Toc the Elder courting Cartheron or Noks daughter. Implying he is not from the original linage.

There is also another reference I believe, to Dujek being an errand boy or something like that to the Family. I am sure he was around in the old days, but not as an equal. He, Duiker, Toc the Elder and probably lots of people we don't know yet were trained and groomed when young to be the loyal and skilled hands of the Empire.

[D'rek]

Nyapt Cat, on 20 August 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

D, on 20 August 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

Nyapt Cat, on 19 August 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

As for the hang arounds, Duiker, Toc the Elder, Heboric, Dujek, etc. are probably all in their 60s or 70s. Admiral Nok's speech to Tavore in HoC very clearly defines the Kellanved "Family" - Kel, Dancer, Surly, Urko, Cartheron, Nok, Hawl, Dassem, Toc the Elder, Dujek, Tayschrenn, Ameron and Duiker. He calls them "The Family. With which Kellanved conquered Malaz Island. " However, this whole bit could be severely in doubt since he claims Hawl died taking Malaz Island and we know that's not true. If they were all there for the taking of Malaz Island, though, then all the Family is over 100 years old. In Dujek's case, you have to consider the 70-something years comment from Tattersail as simply her mistaken opinion (even though she, being over 200, should know better). Heboric, OTOH, seems to have lived his life unaffected by aging-preventing elixirs and deadhouses, so 70ish seems about right.

There is a reference somewhere, if I recall correctly, to Toc the Elder courting Cartheron or Noks daughter. Implying he is not from the original linage.

There is also another reference I believe, to Dujek being an errand boy or something like that to the Family. I am sure he was around in the old days, but not as an equal. He, Duiker, Toc the Elder and probably lots of people we don't know yet were trained and groomed when young to be the loyal and skilled hands of the Empire.

Toc the Elder had a fling with Urko/Cartheron's sister (who is Toc the Younger's mom).

And yeah, Dujek was apparently pretty young when the whole "Family" thing started. I'm sure he was still an important part of the operations against Mock and all, but his youth probably meant that he didn't take command of their armed forces when the invasion of Quon Tali started (unlike Dassem, the Crusts, Ameron, etc could).

Duiker is a bit of an odd-ball, as he apparently was "just a soldier" until the Wickan Wars, which were pretty late, and then he started getting schooling and became historian. Still, "just a soldier" can mean a lot of things - he could've been a Captain or Fist, and meant it in the sense that he only knew how to be in an army.

[Aptorian]

Was it the sister? Damn. I am going to do that reread some day. Some day.

[Illuyankas]

It's Toc telling Envy a story in MOI, just after the 'Ooh, you're just like Rake!' moment.

[Whiskey Bass]

D, on 20 August 2011 - 04:31 PM, said:

[However, this whole bit could be severely in doubt since he claims Hawl died taking Malaz Island and we know that's not true. If they were all there for the taking of Malaz Island, though, then all the Family is over 100 years old. In Dujek's case, you have to consider the 70-something years comment from Tattersail as simply her mistaken opinion (even though she, being over 200, should know better).


Also, note that Dujek was commander of the BBs AFTER WJ (with Korbolo Dom in between), so Dujek was at least certainly lower-ranked than WJ until that point, barring any very strange demotions. Makes sense then for Dujek to still be ranked lower by the GotM prologue.

its now official i dont actually beleive one thing from Gotm, everything in it is suspect it seems

i totally forgot this , so do Dujeck and Korbolo Dom get to ascend with all the other BB's then ??