[Ozymandiac]

I had the same thing with RotCG. I started reading the book because it's was so much connected with Erikson's work, but the only reason I kept reading it was for that same reason: the book itself just isn't good.

The characters couldn't get me involved in the story, I felt like I was just observing fact after fact.

The number of POVs seemed huge to me. Maybe that was because there really were a lot of POVs, maybe it was because the characters just couldn't pull me in the story.

A friend of mine is reading RotCG right now, but he's giving up as well. He just can't ... turn ... the ... pages...

Did enjoy Stonewielder though, very much so.

[tiam]

Saidin, on 20 August 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

The worst parts for me are how he has ruined returning characters. All of his original characters are just so damn boring. Its tough to push through. Not to mention these plot lines that go nowhere. I feel like he tries to make points and they happen and your left asking, was that his point?

I hope you plough through and read it till the end, if only to get the facts and basis for other books. I would also suggest that you maybe reread it after a while. To be fair ive often felt the same about SE when he has plotlines that seem to go knowehre but turn up at the end and validates the plotlines inclusion. Seriously keep going until the end. The battle scenes are worth a read as is the CGRD info.

[Held]

I recommend ploughing through to the end as some pretty interesting scenarios toward the end. I agree that this was a hard book to read. I only perservered for what I might learn. I truly enjoyed Stonewielder. Don't pass on this one. I hope that ICE is going to continue to grow in his writing. A lot of people hated Gardens of the Moon and totally dropped the series. A big loss for them. I came across a post today on ASOIF forum where the poster called it Garbage of the Moon. This poster however did perservere and is a Malazan fan now.

[Abyss]

Saidin, on 20 August 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

The worst parts for me are how he has ruined returning characters. ...

What returning characters?

Topper, Urko and Cartheron were barely in any previous SE books, Blues, Fingers and Cowl even less so. Tayshrenn's barely in RoCG. And I don't see how anything SE did was radically contradicted, much less ruined, by what ICE did with any of them.

I'm actually in awe of what ICE pulled off with Laseeen.

Rel and Dom were perfectly in character.

Traveller/Dassem ... Traveller isn't well developed in his previous appearances in HoC or NoK, so i don't see how anything was ruined. If anything, we learn more about him here.

Kallor... i think that Kallor's brief appearance is silly verging on stupid and probably the weakest part of the book. But his actual characterization was consistent with SE's.

Nil and Nether... i swing back and forth on what ICE did with them, but i didn't think it was awful, or inconsistent. They were very standoffish in DG, HoC and TB so it was fun to see them more active.

Coltaine... safe to say this wasn't the old badass Coltaine we know from DG... might as well consider him a new character for all intents and purposes.

Temper, Ferrule and Kiska are all ICE characters so I can't see how anything he did with them was problematic.

Cotillion and ST... a bit different in voice but hardly 'ruined'.

Osserc... probably the one I have the most trouble with... comes across as entirely a different character from the Osserc we met in HoC and MT. Possibly explicable as him just being more of an asshole when he isn't dealing with family.

So... 'ruined' ... i disagree.

[Illuyankas]

If by the word 'consistent' you mean 'more evidence that ICE hasn't read any of SE's books since Memories of Ice' I'd agree with you. Just compare the Kallors in Return and Toll.

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 25 August 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

If by the word 'consistent' you mean 'more evidence that ICE hasn't read any of SE's books since Memories of Ice' I'd agree with you. Just compare the Kallors in Return and Toll.

Not at all. By TOLL Kallor is deep into an 'i seek redemption or something' trip. In RCG Kallor is still working for the CG and took advantage of an opportunity to settle an old grudge, which is exactly the sort of thing one would expect Kallor to do. He's big on grudges. The dialogue, what there was of it, was vintage Kallor.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that his appearance was contrived and pointless and by far the weakest use of a character previously appearing only in an SE book. Tho' it hardly 'ruined' the character.

[blackzoid]

Abyss is right. Kallor's appearance while stupid was not inconsistant.

Osserc on the other hand......

[Illuyankas]

It's MOI-vintage. I can't believe Kallor went from MOI to Return unchanged and then turned into TTH Kallor in the time it took Dassem to wash up on a beach and fistfight a bear. And again, Osserc is more proof that he simply stopped reading Erikson's books at MOI. Reread HOC and then Return (and Stonewielder while I'm here) and spot the differences.

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 25 August 2011 - 04:30 PM, said:

It's MOI-vintage. I can't believe Kallor went from MOI to Return unchanged and then turned into TTH Kallor in the time it took Dassem to wash up on a beach and fistfight a bear. And again, Osserc is more proof that he simply stopped reading Erikson's books at MOI. Reread HOC and then Return (and Stonewielder while I'm here) and spot the differences.

One might argue that his wholly unfuliflling execution of the last Thel Akai was what sent Kallor on his quest for redemption. I can't see any reason why Kallor would have changed between MoI and RCG all things considered. Even as of the end of TOLL he's ready to kill Spin just for getting in his way, which was exactly what he did to Whiskeyjack back in MoI.


As for Osserc, no disagreement here. The character we saw in HoC and MT was wholly different from the character we saw in RCG.

I'll point out that even in RCG, the Osserc we see in the prologue fistpounding Azath into dust is far different from the standoffish Osserc woken up by the Guard and the imperious dickhead Osserc who confronts ST and Cots in Meanas later on.

Arguably the Osserc viewed in the MT flashback is a slightly grownup version of the savage from the MT flashback.

If we wanted to indulge ICE, we might consider whether the Osserc that Loric encounters in the memory warren in HoC is Osserc from earlier in time, before he went to sleep in the Dragonspur tower and woke up all cranky, memory warrens being particularly tricky things. But whether that exlanation works or not is irrelevant because i agree that Osserc is inconsistently written. That said, he's the only one I can see.

[Baaljagg]

It's a shame you haven't enjoyed ICE's work, but I guess he's not everyone's cup of tea. I enjoyed the book, it took me a 100 or so pages to get into it, but once I got past that I was completely engrossed and read it very quickly. I thought that the characters created by ICE worked a lot better than those brought across from SE's work. Particularly Kyle, who I think is an excellent character with an interesting history that left me wanting more. Stonewielder is an improvement for sure, the character development is more thorough and believable. I do believe that ICE is superior to many popular fantasy writers, but he does stand in the shadow of SE and other great authors like R.R.Martin , and for that reason he looks worse than he is. I don't read the likes of Eddings or Feist any more as I feel like I'm reading a child's book if I do, and ICE is certainly way above their level of literacy. His books have given me an insight into aspects of the Wu world that I wanted to know more about, but he did not cover in TMBotF. There are certainly some important plot lines which are a real advantage to know when reading DoD and TCG. I look forward to his new works as they begin to tie together and provide a well rounded view of Wu. I hope he does something in the continent of Assail!

[Seiko]

My only disappointment with the cast of characters was Skinner's characterization, I know we only had a few comments about him here and there before ROTCG from SE and that he was gone for years and 'changed' but he just kind of seemed...bland. I hope he gets fleshed out a little more in later books if he is going to be the major 'antagonist' of ICE's series.

This post has been edited by Seiko: 26 August 2011 - 12:19 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

concerning osserc, as has been mentioned, each time osserc appears, it is, for all intents and purposes, a completely different time period. who knows how many years go by between instances of osserc appearing on screen for us? not only would he be in different mental states, osserc strikes me as someone you could describe as a chimera - mercurial, and impulsive to a high degree. he does what he wills, when he wills it. he's not bound by any social stricture, and so in any given situation, he could act or behave in an infinite number of ways. as a manifestation of pure light, he's essentially chaotic and his nature follows upon that idea. maybe i'll understand what you mean once i've reread RotCG, but the guy didn't seem jarringly inconsistent.

[Abberon]

I really enjoyed RotCG. I agree that it's probably not a good read on its own if you haven't been following MBotF, but if you have I find that it's actually a pretty good read and a welcome change from SE's sometimes ponderous writing. I get really tired of SE's self-indulgent blabbering sometimes (especially in later books) and just want him to get the point. There's room for 'art' in the fantasy genre, and I think SE is probably the best in the business at it, but he's prone to overkill and on occasion he ends up just writing a messy waste of pages (imo).

ICE is just interested in telling a story. He's plain, he's concise and he gets to the point. That's actually a talent to admire in a writer and one that's made many authors famous. I expect that from an author first before anything else. If they can succesfully incorporate a more artistic flair into their writing on top of that, I'll love them for it, but please for the love of god make sure you don't drag me through the muck of your abusive blabbering. I think ICE, as the less experienced author, just doesn't 'go for it' the same way that Erikson does. Nothing he's written so far comes even close to the final march of the Chain of Dogs, the Battle of Coral, storming the Letheri Palace or the conclusion to TTH, but I do find he's more consistent and a lot less likely to drag me through entire chapters of bore like SE sometimes does.

ICE's clarity and focus also makes his battle scenes much more vivid a lot of the time. The action in NoK and RotCG (especially the ending) were so easy to picture and follow and I found the books all the better for it.

[Seatiger]

If you could sit threw the first book I dont see why this ones giving you any trouble. Was one of my top 2 favourites in the series.

[Studlock]

I would like to point out RotCG was written before any of SE books, so it's SE who is inconsistent with ICE's characterization not the other way around. Mind ICE had alot of time to go back and revize.

[Orlion]

Loved RotCG. Some of the soldiers I think were depicted in a juvenile way ('What color is the wind? Faaaaart!'), but that happens in Erikson as well. I didn't find the characterizations bad at all... he merely doesn't beat us over the head with it as Erikson likes to do. More importantly, I was wondering how anything could top the 'final convergance' in the Fallen portion of 'main sequence and the ending of RotCG showed me that I can trust Esslemont to end the 'main sequence' (and yes, I think the Empire and Fallen series comprise the main sequence, and not just the Fallen series).

[amphibian]

Studlock, on 14 September 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

I would like to point out RotCG was written before any of SE books, so it's SE who is inconsistent with ICE's characterization not the other way around. Mind ICE had alot of time to go back and revize.

Where'd you find this nugget of information?

[MTS]

IIRC ICE said in an interview somewhere ROTCG was written in the late 80s I think, but sat around collecting dust for quite a while until he went back to it.

[Tsundoku]

Orlion, on 19 September 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

Loved RotCG. Some of the soldiers I think were depicted in a juvenile way ('What color is the wind? Faaaaart!')

Actually, that's quite consistent with the ones I know ...

Quote

but that happens in Erikson as well.

Juvenile is actually the rule with soldiers, especially when they're bored. The inconsistency with real life is the long, multisyllabic words and extensive navel-gazing. Just doesn't quite ring true for the vast majority.

[Brujah]

This book is great, IMO. In fact the last fourth of the book might be the best Malazan Ive read so far. Ive read up through Toll the Hounds. I thought Night of Knives could of been much better, but RotCG is amazing. ICE focuses alot more on battke, and fighting. His style is just more blatant. Its a nice change of pace while reading back and forth between ICE and SE, even though I would of course admit that SE is a better author, but then again it looks like ICE's books take giant leaps with each new book. Im thoroughly satisfied with the book.

Also someone mentioned not liking the character KYLE, but we dont get too many "good" guys that seem as pure and simple as Kyle,without them having some sort of mental problem. Im glad for the character.