[Werthead]

Quote

First off, I hate Martin for the Jon cliffhanger. sincerely hope he's not dead. with R+L being pretty soundly disproved (Davos being told about Ned and the smuggler girl. Gods, I hated the R+L=J thing ever since i've heard of it, reading those words made my day), I'd like to see what becomes of him and the North more than ever.

Yeah, total red herring. We are also told in the book that Elia couldn't have a third child, so if Rhaegar wanted to fulfil the 3 heads of the dragon/PWWP prophecy, he NEEDED to find another wife. The Ashara-is-Jon's-mother theory was also shot down in flames when it was revealed by Barristan that Ashara had a daughter, stillborn (and there is some evidence that Eddard never slept with Ashara, but it was his brother Brandon who fathered the girl). Then Bran's vision through the weirwood showed Lyanna as a skilled swordswoman who could outfight her brother, the future Head Ranger of the Night's Watch, making her a much stronger candidate for the Knight of the Laughing Tree (the engimatic knight at the Harrenhal tourney that Aerys sent Rhaegar to find; the knight didn't fight in the last joust, allowing Rhaegar to win and crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty).

So, as of the end of ADWD, R+L=J has been greatly strengthened. Unless GRRM pulls something unconvincing out of nowhere, I can find no real evidence to refute it now the main alternative is gone.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 20 July 2011 - 12:38 PM

[Gothos]

Hokay, I haven't finished yet (about 300 pages to go, or less), but I was getting so annoyed I just decided to read through this thread. Hardly any surprises, tbh.

The shining points of this book so far for me are:
Theon, first and foremost
Lord Manderly (though his ruse with imprisoning Davos at the start wasn't surprising at all)
Maybe Jon being very active, though it will cost him.

All in all, I'm having trouble finding the motivation to finish this book. Daenerys and Tyrion, two of my favourite characters, are ABSOLUTELY BULLSHIT throughout the book. It's pretty much the chapters I enjoyed the least so far. And if I have the urge to skip chapters of my fav characters, something bad's going on. I can't believe Dany's still stuck around Slaver's Bay at this point, by my count she should be around Volantis by now at the very least. She should've just burned down all three slaver cities and continue on. She keeps claiming she's a dragon, but she shows very little dragonness in this book to me - would that she acted more like Jon. It's like she actually regressed since Astapor. Now she's flown off on her dragon. Mind you, it seems that Drogon takes care of everything on it's own, really - bears to think, just how intelligent and aware the dragons are?

Most happenings in the book are hardly surprising so far, I must admit. I am guessing now that the Harpy is the green priestess, but I may be wrong... I do wonder at one thing: the cave when Bran is, is that in the Lands of Always Winter? I recall them going through some lakes and the lakes in that map are very far north indeed. The only place where I was genuinely surprised was when Tyrion ran into Jorah in Volantis (and, of course, the revelation of Aegon and Jon Connington, even if it feels rather out of the blue).

Stannis is seriously infuriating in how stuck up and stubborn you can be, against all reason. Fuck him, really.

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Another grievance: where's the dying? Over 700 pages in and still nobody important dies? Really, GRRM? So, Stannis freezes to death, Jon is stabbed by his brothers, Quentyn (who's a rather minor character anwyay, and a huge disappointment after Doran's outro in AFFC) dies to dragonfire...

Bonus notes: Hosteen Frey... finally a member of that wretched family that's actually worth something. Surprising, that!



All in all: in Ramsay Bolton we finally meet someone worse than Cersei. Quite a feat.


PS. Almost forgot: POVs I want to see in the next book:
Coldhands (if he 'survived')
Melisandre
Connington
(not very probable, but!) Drogon!

This post has been edited by Gothos: 20 July 2011 - 01:35 PM

[QuickTidal]

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

[Ceda Cicero]

King Kazma, on 20 July 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

I also really missed Grenn and Pip. I understood the reasons why Jon thought he needed to send them away ("kill the boy") but I wasn't sold that they outweighed reasons for keeping them near. And from a narrative standpoint, I've always really enjoyed them.

[QuickTidal]

Ceda Cicero, on 20 July 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

King Kazma, on 20 July 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

I also really missed Grenn and Pip. I understood the reasons why Jon thought he needed to send them away ("kill the boy") but I wasn't sold that they outweighed reasons for keeping them near. And from a narrative standpoint, I've always really enjoyed them.

I actually totally RESENT the idea that Jon growing up to be a man means he has to abandon his true friends (in Grenn, Pip and even Sam). In fact, as we grow up our friends are benefits to us. "Killing the boy" should have less to do with sending friends away and treating things in a more adult manner while they are around.

[acesn8s]

I feel the need to add . . .

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with OMGWTFBBQ!!11!! I can't believe Martin was able to make me feel bad for that turncloak. Geez!

I am really curious to see what Theon's uncles are able to accomplish in the next book.

Did anyone else think Jon's duties on the wall will help make him a benefit to Dany? dany struggled with her leadership roles, and it seemed that Jon's leadership and management skills would have been ideal over in Meereen . . . up until the part where he got shanked.

[QuickTidal]

acesn8s, on 20 July 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

OMGWTFBBQ!!11!!

I would like to attend an Oh My God What The Fuck Bar-B-Que!!11!! please.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Maybe John will go full warg and take over another human's body?

[Ceda Cicero]

Dolorous Menhir, on 20 July 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

Maybe John will go full warg and take over another human's body?

I think the most likely scenario is that he'll warg into something, either Ghost or Mormont's raven or possibly even Wun Wun (since the Bran/Hodor connection made it pretty clear that it's comparatively easier for a skinchanger to "possess" the bodies of, shall we say, more feebleminded creatures?_ Then after some period of this, Melisandre will track down Jon's soul, drag it back into his body, and revive him Thoros of Myr style. I know a fair portion of folks will be bitching about how too many people are being brought back to life at that point, but this wouldn't annoy me too terribly much. Then again, maybe my threshold of tolerance for ressurections is somewhat wider thanks to SE.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 20 July 2011 - 07:46 PM

[acesn8s]

I'm hoping it doesn't go that far.

Does anyone think the old tom cat at King's Landing is a warg on its second life? That damn cat keeps showing up, every damn book I think.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

King Kazma, on 20 July 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

America vs Islam when our own government is fucking us over. See? It's possible to be willfully ignorant of the real threat because of prejudice.

[QuickTidal]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 21 July 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

King Kazma, on 20 July 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

America vs Islam when our own government is fucking us over. See? It's possible to be willfully ignorant of the real threat because of prejudice.

Yeah, well when I have to hear about it in real life I don't want to read about it in fiction as well.

[amphibian]

Gothos, Stannis is Stannis. That's just who he is. Given how grim Martin has a tendency to be, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some kind of serious childhood trauma in his life.

[acesn8s]

Yeah, like his older brother slept with Stannis' favorite puppy or something.

[QuickTidal]

A guy on amazon.com wrote this review which I think hits practically every nail on the head about the issues with the book:

"If you had told me to make a list off the top of my head before I sat down to read this novel, of events I'd want to see, or resolutions I was looking for, it would have been something like:

Dany mastering her dragons, escaping the Meereen situation, and heading west.
Tyrion arriving at Dany's court to serve her in his unique ways.
The battle with the Others finally starting in a serious way.
Jon learning who he is.
Cersei's trial and the unleashing of FrankinGregor.
What is Jaime going to do?
Is Briennie dead, what did she say to get out of the noose?
Quentyn arriving at Dany's court and revealing Dorne's plans to her.
Victarion using the horn to control the dragons.
Bran meeting the Greenseer and finishing his training.
Arya finishing her training.

A pretty obvious list based on the story so far, right? I would have been happy with 3 of these stories moving along, 4 would have been downright wonderful. Instead I got one and a half. And the kicker...it's the last one and a half I would have chosen.

This would have been bad enough...only it got worse. GRRM manages to add two more very interesting plotlines, one of which is Stannis' battle for the North, the other of which we'll let be a secret, and he gives no resolution for them either.

This is a novel that ended 200 hundred pages short. Throughout all of it we are given two "big" stories, the North and the East, and both of them look to lead towards large power altering battles that will rival the Blackwater...only we never get to them. The book stops before BOTH.

It is a novel filled with ships sailing, and sailing, and sailing some more. Of marching, and marching, and marching some more. Jon Snow becomes muddled in food stores, concerned with wildlings, with not an Other in sight of the wall. Dany reverts back to trying to save absolutely everyone, doing anything at all to make a false peace, and turns on her own dragons. Cersei has 2 chapters, Jaime 1, and both of them feel like they should have either been included into AFFC or left out till Book 6. Bran and Ayra train, but it has no end in sight.

Tyrion....Tyrion learns to cherish his inner dwarf. If all this doesn't sound exciting, don't worry, you will be lucky enough to get to read near 50 pages of food descriptions scattered about the novel. There is also about 100 "You know nothing, Jon Snows", about 50 "Words are Wind" and considerable "I must go forward" and something about Lannister's and debts I didn't know about...

I can't say it was all bad. If there wasn't good I wouldn't be so disappointing in where the book ended after all. Reek, Barristan, Asha, and Davos were all fantastic, the single Melisandre chapter shed much light on a certain bastard's destiny, and my main-dragon Drogon was the star of the book.

But...I have just finished 1000 pages, it is fresh in my mind, and what drives me to my disappointment is the thought of another 5 years...where I will have my list above, one scratched off, and yet two more added.

3.5 but it doesn't deserve the curve. "

[Held]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 21 July 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

King Kazma, on 20 July 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Gothos, on 20 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

And last but not least... everyone on the Wall besides Jon seem to be so monumentally retarted that it seriously counters immersion. The extent they insist on the wildlings being the enemy, even after seeing the Others and Wights with their own eyes, is just unbelievable. It's a major turnoff for me, and I must say it poisons the WHOLE storyline at the wall. Seriously, can't those people understand that these would come south as wights anyway? What kind of retards are they and still have the brainpower required to process food into shit and stay upright? It's so far so badly done and forced that it's a major factor turning me away from the book.

Yeah, I kind of had to ignore this to enjoy Jon's storyline, but the fact that the majority of the NW are so blind was annoying. Up to and including Edd, and even his close friends are all so blinded by racial hatred that they can't see the true enemy. It bothered me too Gothos.

America vs Islam when our own government is fucking us over. See? It's possible to be willfully ignorant of the real threat because of prejudice.

I saw parallels with ethnic bigotry like the American Indians herded into reservations, or the US Japanese camps during WWII, or the Australia aberigone treatment in Australia and many other instances of ethnic/racial genocide throughout the history of humankind.

[Held]

acesn8s, on 20 July 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

I'm hoping it doesn't go that far.

Does anyone think the old tom cat at King's Landing is a warg on its second life? That damn cat keeps showing up, every damn book I think.

Definitely. Question is who is warging these cats?

[Held]

Ceda Cicero, on 20 July 2011 - 07:45 PM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on 20 July 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

Maybe John will go full warg and take over another human's body?

I think the most likely scenario is that he'll warg into something, either Ghost or Mormont's raven or possibly even Wun Wun (since the Bran/Hodor connection made it pretty clear that it's comparatively easier for a skinchanger to "possess" the bodies of, shall we say, more feebleminded creatures?_ Then after some period of this, Melisandre will track down Jon's soul, drag it back into his body, and revive him Thoros of Myr style. I know a fair portion of folks will be bitching about how too many people are being brought back to life at that point, but this wouldn't annoy me too terribly much. Then again, maybe my threshold of tolerance for ressurections is somewhat wider thanks to SE.

I hope that he lives despite his injuries and we do not have to go through a warging back and forth scenario. I am more concerned that he will be put on ice with his soul somewhere else and we won't see him until the last book when he will miraculously reconnect himself and fulfill some prophesy or another. There are too many prophesies he could fulfill. I like the one that has him a a ice encased killing machine. I am tired of these re-animated dead people. Jon deserves better than this.

[Held]

acesn8s, on 20 July 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

I feel the need to add . . .

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with OMGWTFBBQ!!11!! I can't believe Martin was able to make me feel bad for that turncloak. Geez!

I am really curious to see what Theon's uncles are able to accomplish in the next book.

Did anyone else think Jon's duties on the wall will help make him a benefit to Dany? dany struggled with her leadership roles, and it seemed that Jon's leadership and management skills would have been ideal over in Meereen . . . up until the part where he got shanked.

I can't claim credit for this one, but with Rickon likely living with the cannibals on Skagos....Rickon. Ricken. I taste like chicken.

[JPK]

King Kazma, on 21 July 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

Dany mastering her dragons, escaping the Meereen situation, and heading west.
Tyrion arriving at Dany's court to serve her in his unique ways.
The battle with the Others finally starting in a serious way.
Jon learning who he is.
Cersei's trial and the unleashing of FrankinGregor.
What is Jaime going to do?
Is Briennie dead, what did she say to get out of the noose?
Quentyn arriving at Dany's court and revealing Dorne's plans to her.
Victarion using the horn to control the dragons.
Bran meeting the Greenseer and finishing his training.
Arya finishing her training.

1 and a half of these answered? B.S. We got to see Cersei's Trial and FRANKENGREGOR!, we know that Brienne is alive, Quentyn made it to court and failed miserably, and both Bran and Arya made progress down their respective paths. Now, to me that 4 and a half with Brienne counting as the half. True, we don't have solid endings to a couple of these storylines however progress was definitely made.

Please remember I do as well wish we'd had more answers that questions given to us in this book.