[kurono]

amphibian, on 16 July 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

But if Sam has the horn,

Spoiler

then what the fuck was Mance doing? GAAAAAAH!

Spoiler

Saving Arya Stark. He was Abel the Bard and the women helping Theon escape were the spear wives he took South with him. He was also the one killing Bolton's men, although Little Walder might be Manderly's work. Did anyone else catch that the 3 Freys that went missing on their way to Winterfell were really killed by Manderly and then baked into those three gigantic pies during the wedding feast?

[Ceda Cicero]

kurono, on 16 July 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

amphibian, on 16 July 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

But if Sam has the horn,

Spoiler

then what the fuck was Mance doing? GAAAAAAH!

Spoiler

Saving Arya Stark. He was Abel the Bard and the women helping Theon escape were the spear wives he took South with him. He was also the one killing Bolton's men, although Little Walder might be Manderly's work. Did anyone else catch that the 3 Freys that went missing on their way to Winterfell were really killed by Manderly and then baked into those three gigantic pies during the wedding feast?

Spoiler

I didn't catch it until a few days after I read that chapter, and then I was elated. Manderly, apparently, is one badass fatass.

I still don't quite buy that Mance would just be doing a favor for Melisandre and/or Jon out of the goodness of his heart, even considering Mel saved his life. Jon seems to suspect that Mel saved Mance for her own reasons, and that Mance is complying with her plan for his own reasons. I'm inclined to agree with him.

[Tapper]

now, there is little evidence towards it, but...

Spoiler

Is Roose Bolton ( I really loved the mannerisms of that ice cold clunge in his few appearances this book) dead, considering the signature of Ramsay under the letter sent to Jon in the final Jon chapter? Also, the corpses thrown over Meereen's wall... What do you think, diseased corpses, or the remaining four hostages? There were after all six trebuchets...

Also, Stannis' wife needs to die. As soon as possible. Stupid conservative nasty prim bitch.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 17 July 2011 - 06:12 PM

[QuickTidal]

Finished.

Spoiler

Enjoyed it more than AFFC definitely...though the first 600 pages or so were a lot of posturing...which while interesting seemed like a "holding pattern" if that makes sense.

After that things moved up to a significant clip, and we started moving this boat forward again and I was enjoying it.

Aside from Arya...Jon Snow is my fave character and if he's really dead then that is going to piss me off and the series is going to drop down on my list of faves a tad into the next few books (though I'll still read them of course), or his knifing is just a GRRM super cliffhanger (like Brienne) which makes me pissed off in another way cause that feels cheapish to me. Either way I don't think i am happy with Jon getting iced at the end...but it's GRRM's pool, I'm only swimming in it.

That said, so long as Arya's plotline remains as awesome as it does I am happy. Her chapters were some of my faves in this book....and I also think we are going to see Syrio Forel pop up for her to remember in the next book...as I am convinced that one of the other people at the temple is actually him in disguise.

I agree FULLY with Amph's comments about Tyrion's chapters, just skip that Penny and slavery stuff and get right to his end result. That said, the Penny thing serves to humble him further so at least it had that going for it...but I want a return to the Tyrion of old and I don't think we are going to see that again.

Was I the only one wanting someone in the crowd at Kings Landing during Cersei's Atonement to cut her head off? She just deserves it so much at this point. She should burn, the cow. I hate her still.

Jaime's chapters were good and it was nice to see him in this one.

I must say that I kind of got annoyed with GRRM's need to use cover up names for chapters, like The Blind Girl, Reek ect.....why bother with the fancy disguise name when you find out who he is talking about 3 sentences in? Just fucking name those chapters Arya and Theon and be done with it. It worked for stuff like The Lost Lord ect. where it was a new character, or you truly didn't know who it was till chapters end....but still.

Daenerys chapters were only good near the end, for most of the book with the whole learning how to rule/manage outlying cities who want her head, and turncloaks in her midst ect. it got into overkill territory about 400 page in where I just kind of went into a Daenerys trance for her chapters...they had interesting bits, but overall things didn't start clicking forward till after page 600 or so. good, not great.

My overall thoughts were much enjoyment! for all the stagnant parts there were an equal amount of kickass parts. I'd basically say that the first 600 pages were a match to AFFC...simply concerning characters I cared more about than the ones in AFFC making it more enjoyable..it still felt like cleaning up after the party in ASOS.

Was glad Brienne showed back up...but that really does solidify the notion that GRRM is just fucking with us "cheap cliffhanger" style with Jon....but who knows, perhaps he truly bit the big one and the series will be worse off for it IMHO.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 July 2011 - 07:50 PM

[champ]

Not spoilers but since I am talking about the book...

Spoiler

Got to say, currently 366 pages in and so far for me it's a slog... not what I was hoping for but kind of what I expected... so far just a load of maneuvering... kind of finding it tedious at the minute... the only chapters that are keeping me sane is Jons!

I think I would of enjoyed it more if I hadn't read any reviews - though I've managed to avoid spoilers - and I had read it straight after the last book... not a bloody 5+ year gap... (couldn't face a reread)

Nevermind, I will persevere, fingers crossed it gets better - I do hope/have faith - but if it doesn't pick up then this series will be moved to the "read when complete" pile..! Whenever that will be!

This post has been edited by champ: 17 July 2011 - 08:30 PM

[Slick Mongoose]

QuickTidal, on 17 July 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

Spoiler

I must say that I kind of got annoyed with GRRM's need to use cover up names for chapters, like The Blind Girl, Reek ect.....why bother with the fancy disguise name when you find out who he is talking about 3 sentences in? Just fucking name those chapters Arya and Theon and be done with it. It worked for stuff like The Lost Lord ect. where it was a new character, or you truly didn't know who it was till chapters end....but still.

Spoiler

While for several of the characters i'd agree with you (Quentyn, Barristan etc), I think Arya and Theon face genuine battles for their identity in the book. Especially Theon, who really is Reek at the start, and you can see his thought processes changing with the titles.

This post has been edited by Slick Mongoose: 17 July 2011 - 08:34 PM

[Cause]

kurono, on 16 July 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

amphibian, on 16 July 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

But if Sam has the horn,

Spoiler

then what the fuck was Mance doing? GAAAAAAH!

Spoiler

Saving Arya Stark. He was Abel the Bard and the women helping Theon escape were the spear wives he took South with him. He was also the one killing Bolton's men, although Little Walder might be Manderly's work. Did anyone else catch that the 3 Freys that went missing on their way to Winterfell were really killed by Manderly and then baked into those three gigantic pies during the wedding feast?

Spoiler

Read it again, I think its strongly implied that Big Walder killed his cousin. He was just looking for a scape goat and so he named Manderly who was an obvious as well as believable target. Theon mentions once that Big Walder was quickly becoming more like Ramsey, and his excuse for why his cousin was out alone was absurd

Martin has angered me somewhat with this book. I actually did not believe I had waited six years for this novel till I checked the publication dates! Last book he left us with a cliff hanger about Brienne which he resolved with two sentences this book which is to say he resolved nothing. This book we are left wondering about the fate of Jon. A cliff Hanger is a powerful thing over a year, after two it breeds resentment after five it leads to indifference. Given his track record we wont know what happens for at least two years!

Almost never caught it but the three eyed crow is Blood Raven?!

I hope Aegon is a fake or at least something is fishy about it because when he popped back to life with little foreshadowing it felt weak to me. There has also of course been a lot of hints about mummers dragons as such. Its obvios though that Lord connington believes he is real.

Laslty I have a comment about Martins writing. I never noticed it before until a recent reread and never was it more obvious than in this book but he keeps changing his writing style. He obviously recently discovered niello and suddenly in this book no Knights armor has it lacking, suddenly words are winds drops from the mouth of every character, three books with chapters headings being the name of the PoV and suddenly more and more he used headings like dragontamer and kingbreaker. In feast we had Nuncle and Coz which came got dropped alot and now seemingly have been dropped again.I just feel like every time I'm noticing details like this instead of the story that he is failed somewhat in his writing

Lastly my crackpot theory. We know Master Aemon thought Danny was the prince that was promised. Dragons are neither male nor female so why cant the prince that was promised be a princess? Then Martin introduces a Hermaphrodite character called sweets, I think this is a subtle nudge at us and more foreshadowing.If your nither male nor female but both what are you? A hermaphrodite like the dragons. So while people have been arguing over whether it danny or jon that is the prince that is promised or weather azhor azhai and the prince are seperate prophecies I think it refers to both together. Also the whole there heads thing obviously. Who the third head is I think remains a mystery and while I love Tyrion as a character I just dont think he fits.

[amphibian]

Cause, on 17 July 2011 - 08:36 PM, said:

Spoiler

Read it again, I think its strongly implied that Big Walder killed his cousin. He was just looking for a scape goat and so he named Manderly who was an obvious as well as believable target. Theon mentions once that Big Walder was quickly becoming more like Ramsey, and his excuse for why his cousin was out alone was absurd

Que?

Spoiler

Little Walder was the one being more like Ramsay. Big Walder was the decent one.

Quote

Spoiler

Martin has angered me somewhat with this book. I actually did not believe I had waited six years for this novel till I checked the publication dates! Last book he left us with a cliff hanger about Brienne which he resolved with two sentences this book which is to say he resolved nothing. This book we are left wondering about the fate of Jon. A cliff Hanger is a powerful thing over a year, after two it breeds resentment after five it leads to indifference. Given his track record we wont know what happens for at least two years!

Spoiler

We know by inference what Brienne yelled - something to the effect that she'd sell out Jaime to save her life. Catelyn/Stoneheart let her go for that.

Spoiler

One thing I just noticed is how well Martin set up the "Bran/weirwood" thing. We have little ghostly communications that many of the Starks hear during their times in the weirwoods. It's been many books in the makings and I'm hoping that he truly makes that arc something worth paying attention to.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

amphibian, on 16 July 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

I think Martin has basically quit coming up with new forms for the magic in the books to be expressed. Everything magical has pretty much been introduced already. We have the explanation for the Faceless Men and through Bran we understand why the godswoods were so important (greenseers may have been more common long ago). The "fairies" were kinda new though.

How would you explain Jaqen changing his face with a wave of his hand then?

[amphibian]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 18 July 2011 - 02:37 AM, said:

How would you explain Jaqen changing his face with a wave of his hand then?

Spoiler

Perhaps after you've had enough training, you don't need the external faces. Or maybe your body retains a memory of faces. Or perhaps you can make your own faces and switch back and forth between them like tabs on a computer browser.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 17 July 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

Finished.

Spoiler

Enjoyed it more than AFFC definitely...though the first 600 pages or so were a lot of posturing...which while interesting seemed like a "holding pattern" if that makes sense.

After that things moved up to a significant clip, and we started moving this boat forward again and I was enjoying it.

Aside from Arya...Jon Snow is my fave character and if he's really dead then that is going to piss me off and the series is going to drop down on my list of faves a tad into the next few books (though I'll still read them of course), or his knifing is just a GRRM super cliffhanger (like Brienne) which makes me pissed off in another way cause that feels cheapish to me. Either way I don't think i am happy with Jon getting iced at the end...but it's GRRM's pool, I'm only swimming in it.

Spoiler

I thought it was one of the more interesting twists in the book. With Melisandre there I doubt death is final but I think it also depends on what Stannis' wife does and how much influence she retains. If Bolton truly wiped out Stannis and his army, the Baratheons have become a non-entity.
It is clear the old order killed Jon not because he wanted to go to Winterfell (or maybe that was the final proverbial straw), but because they feel wildlings rather than wights and Others are the enemy, and perhaps also because of the (impending?) disaster with Cotter Pyke. Their reasoning is flawed though, from the moment Jon explains to them that any dead wildling north of the wall becomes a wight.

Quote

Spoiler

That said, so long as Arya's plotline remains as awesome as it does I am happy. Her chapters were some of my faves in this book....and I also think we are going to see Syrio Forel pop up for her to remember in the next book...as I am convinced that one of the other people at the temple is actually him in disguise.

Spoiler

I doubt he will return, myself, or that a fencer like him has been trained as rigorously as an assassin/ face changer. The skills and profiles required are not exactly compatible.

Quote

Spoiler

I agree FULLY with Amph's comments about Tyrion's chapters, just skip that Penny and slavery stuff and get right to his end result. That said, the Penny thing serves to humble him further so at least it had that going for it...but I want a return to the Tyrion of old and I don't think we are going to see that again.

Spoiler

Really? I thought the Penny stuff was very well done, and re-installed some much needed care and compassion in Tyrion for anyone other than himself. He had never been so one dimensional before. For the first part of the book, he was a real little prick imho.

Quote

Spoiler

Was I the only one wanting someone in the crowd at Kings Landing during Cersei's Atonement to cut her head off?

No

Spoiler

Did anyone else feel that the trio of Dornish and their plot was filler and totally unnecessary and could have as easily been solved with Raegal and Visyerion breaking out of the cellar by themselves and Barristan Selmy telling people about it?

Also, Missandei is stealing every scene she is in.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 18 July 2011 - 07:36 AM

[Cause]

Spoiler

Sorry I guess I fell victim to the Walder vs Walder confusion. Still I think if you read that scene you will see what Im talking about. Theons observations about his answers and expressions I think clearly hint that some Walder on Walder violence took place. That and the spearwives insistence that they did not do the deed I think is telling. I also think that Manderly is not the sort to killl children, or to risk his plans by playing his hand to early again

[QuickTidal]

Spoiler

Syrio wasn't just an ordinary fencing master though...he was the first sword of Braavos....I think that counts for soemthing. Plus both Martin (and HBO) made his supposed death happen off-screen....a narrative trick so that he can come back...otherwise what was the point of it happening that way?

[Ceda Cicero]

Tapper, on 18 July 2011 - 07:35 AM, said:

Spoiler

Did anyone else feel that the trio of Dornish and their plot was filler and totally unnecessary and could have as easily been solved with Raegal and Visyerion breaking out of the cellar by themselves and Barristan Selmy telling people about it?

Spoiler

In the context of this book alone, I totally agree with you. However, I feel pretty certain that Quentyn's whole arc will have a huge ripple effect on later books. Learning that his son was not only spurned by Daenerys for a Meereneese slaver, but that he was also killed by her dragons, may have an enormous impact on Doran's decision whether or not to hold his spears back for Dany's arrival. Especially with Aegon in play now, and with Connington having every intention of trying to win the support of Dorne. How all that will play out, I'm not real sure, especially since Connington seems pretty intent on keeping Aegon "single" for Dany's eventual arrival. But I can definitely see trouble brewing there. Aside from randos here and there, Dorne was the one sure thing Dany could've relied on in the event of a Westeros invasion. Now? Maybe not.

And yanno, more broadly, the first line of the above paragraph is kind of how I feel about large portions of DANCE. And I tend to think it's the reason why over on Westeros and in other places, people are absolutely demolishing it. Whereas the first three books really stood alone in their own right as great novels with proper story elements, FEAST and - in a different way - DANCE tend to deal more with development, maneuvering, and world-building. None of these are bad things in their own right, and I don't think it makes either of them - especially DANCE - "bad" books. The issue is that people's expectations, between their bias towards the first three books and the complete mindfuck of waiting 6+ years, so completely color how they experience the novel. I mean seriously, keep FEAST and DANCE exactly the way they are but say that GRRM wrote at the Erikson or Sanderson pace, and people would have entirely different reactions to them, IMO. And that's a damn shame.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 18 July 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Spoiler

Syrio wasn't just an ordinary fencing master though...he was the first sword of Braavos....I think that counts for soemthing. Plus both Martin (and HBO) made his supposed death happen off-screen....a narrative trick so that he can come back...otherwise what was the point of it happening that way?

Spoiler

That only reinforces that someone with such an important and up-front position, also vis-a-vis his peers, can hardly maintain that position AND also be an acolyte of murder - the moreso because the Temple requires a lot of sacrifices in training, on the job and in life.

The point of the off-screen death was more that when Syrio died, Martin was rather inflexible in his PoVs (aka the Starks) and he didn't break that structure to bring us Syrio's death. Sure, Syrio was awesome, but all in all, he's a footnote in the books and existed more to define Arya as the sword-girl tomboy than anything else.

The point that we didn't witness his death in either the book (logical reason) or the series (less logical, unless you are firmly of the point that so far, the series focus on the Starks, Lannisters and Baelish) is irrelevant to the extreme. A lot of people die off screen... see the Whispering Woods as an example, or Loras' wounding at Dragonstone, or the various deaths of Beric Dondarrion. Doesn't make them less true.

[QuickTidal]

Tapper, on 18 July 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 July 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Spoiler

Syrio wasn't just an ordinary fencing master though...he was the first sword of Braavos....I think that counts for soemthing. Plus both Martin (and HBO) made his supposed death happen off-screen....a narrative trick so that he can come back...otherwise what was the point of it happening that way?

Spoiler

That only reinforces that someone with such an important and up-front position, also vis-a-vis his peers, can hardly maintain that position AND also be an acolyte of murder - the moreso because the Temple requires a lot of sacrifices in training, on the job and in life.

The point of the off-screen death was more that when Syrio died, Martin was rather inflexible in his PoVs (aka the Starks) and he didn't break that structure to bring us Syrio's death. Sure, Syrio was awesome, but all in all, he's a footnote in the books and existed more to define Arya as the sword-girl tomboy than anything else.

The point that we didn't witness his death in either the book (logical reason) or the series (less logical, unless you are firmly of the point that so far, the series focus on the Starks, Lannisters and Baelish) is irrelevant to the extreme. A lot of people die off screen... see the Whispering Woods as an example, or Loras' wounding at Dragonstone, or the various deaths of Beric Dondarrion. Doesn't make them less true.

Meh, I disagree brother. I still see it happening. Only time (Read: twenty more years till end of series is written) will tell.

[Tapper]

Btw, I like this communication by spoiler. It's only two lines in a post, until you click something open and the info spills out like the magmalike heavenly sweet thick ooze of chocolate goo from a choco fondant.

[QuickTidal]

Here's my full mostly non-spoiler thoughts on the book.

http://icebergink.bl...dragons-by.html

[Dolorous Menhir]

kurono, on 16 July 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

amphibian, on 16 July 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

But if Sam has the horn,

Spoiler

then what the fuck was Mance doing? GAAAAAAH!

Spoiler

Saving Arya Stark. He was Abel the Bard and the women helping Theon escape were the spear wives he took South with him. He was also the one killing Bolton's men, although Little Walder might be Manderly's work. Did anyone else catch that the 3 Freys that went missing on their way to Winterfell were really killed by Manderly and then baked into those three gigantic pies during the wedding feast?

It was?

Great book.

[Held]

QuickTidal, on 18 July 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

Here's my full mostly non-spoiler thoughts on the book.

http://icebergink.bl...dragons-by.html

I liked this non spoiler review. Great analogy of the 1st 600 pages as a barge and remaining 350 pages as speed boat. There was way too much filler and pointless scenes in the barge. The analogy of the barge made me think about a certain characters trip down the river in a barge like boat. Kind of interesting but not really. Can't believe that with 6 years to write and review he could not streamline it. He needs a editor who has the guts to tell him to cut out the fluff. Still, it was a decent read. I will likely continue with the series, if only to find out more about the Other.

This post has been edited by Held: 18 July 2011 - 09:09 PM