[Gust Hubb]

HiddenOne, on 16 July 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

Btw, your constipated insistence on knowing what finders do and straining to make sure we get the point makes me think you may be a finder (or MH if you want to confuse things, but I deem that less likely). If you are a finder, then you have made me very worried, because the finders are a whole lot weaker than I am assuming. Can you confirm or deny?

Some would consider this scummy, GH

What is scummy? Trying to figure out if Kells is in the know or blowing hot air out of his ass? How am I helping MH? Giving him a target (oh wait! FKs can't be recruited and there are no killers!!!)? Making sure I don't day lynch a finder (naw, MH would scream bloody murder if we killed a precious finder)? Not following HO. Can you elaborate too?

[HiddenOne]

Notice I said some, not me. Generally pointing out roled towners is condemned. Don't get huffy. (Dont tell anybody, but I was wondering the same thing as you, just kept it to myself. Glad I'm not the only one)

But that was a good response in case I was actually calling you scum.

[Gust Hubb]

Lol. Excellent. Yeah, I'm working on my Mafia snarkiness.

[HiddenOne]

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Lol. Excellent. Yeah, I'm working on my Mafia snarkiness.

Bring back the persona you used when you got lynched for voting night on day 1 - it was amusing, but I'd say you were alt guessed within 3 posts.

[Roldom]

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also, I really don't like that people are pushing finders to reveal. If Tat is a finder I think it was a bad move for him to reveal(particularly given his info wasn't relevant), and would urge the other finder to stay hidden.

tats info took three players out of the suspect list, how is that not relevant?

[ansible]

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:

Ok, once again you seem to have either an excellent prescience or inside knowledge of what a finder can and cannot do. If finders can not go beyond seeing inno or MH (which in my impression of mafia is an exceptional paucity of information for a finder), then yes your reasoning makes sense. I think finders can see a bit more than that and I'd hazard they get both the name of whoever they find plus that person's role whether it be RI, MH, or symp. I do think the successors may not be visible, esp if they successors themselves don't know they are lined up to be the next MH.

But again, I ask you, where dod you get your confidence in your "knowledge." You continue to fail to answer that question for me whenever I want you to back up your absolute statements of truth.

As for "debulking" I think it is you that seem to have a hard time grasping what I'm getting at. The reason we save the list of highly suspicious is so we don't waste FKs stumbling upon MH. We want the best possible lynch opportunity to get MH, and we need to lynch him at least 3 times before there are two FKs. that's why I say debulk, to give us a higher probability of nailing MH.

Are you fucking serious? Not only is the information about how the finds work in the OP, but it has been said over and over by many people... how can it be that you still don't understand what a find does in this game? Are you really trying to read and comprehend people's posts or just skimming everything? Regardless, you are spreading total misinformation by speculating that finds do things that Path-Shaper says they don't do. You want to know why some people like Khell or Grief seem to know a lot about what a finder can and can't do? Because they're veterans. When you've played enough games you've seen a lot of setups, and most of the time now you don't see anything new. I know you're new, man, but I'm not giving you a free pass on the noob card because this is too ridiculous.

Vote Gust Hubb

You refuse to help us lynch, you're still voting for night, and you are actively basing your play on a misunderstanding of the game mechanics. I think you are dangerous to town because you keep trying to lead us in the obviously wrong directions even when a lot of people have explained things to you repeatedly. If you aren't MH you're doing a pretty good job of keeping us from finding him...

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 3. The clock has been frozen with 18 Hours and 00 Minutes remaining.
12 Players still alive: ansible, Grief, Gust Hubb, HiddenOne, Khellendros, Kurt Montandon, Mentalist, Roldom, Shinrei, Tattersail, twelve, Vengeance

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Gust Hubb ( ansible )
3 Votes for Night ( twelve, Roldom, Gust Hubb )

Players not voted: Grief, HiddenOne, Khellendros, Kurt Montandon, Mentalist, Shinrei, Tattersail, Vengeance

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 16 July 2011 - 04:22 PM

[ansible]

Roldom, on 16 July 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also, I really don't like that people are pushing finders to reveal. If Tat is a finder I think it was a bad move for him to reveal(particularly given his info wasn't relevant), and would urge the other finder to stay hidden.

tats info took three players out of the suspect list, how is that not relevant?

It becomes not relevant as soon as MH dies. Tatts says he has been using his finds and if the other finder has as well, that means upwards of four or five people may have been cleared - how many more finds do you think it's going to take to find MH the first time? Already almost half of the players could be "cleared". And yet, we haven't lynched ANYONE yet. The only possible way that information could benefit us is if we use it to lynch before MH dies - which gets less and less likely every damn night.

[Grief]

Roldom, on 16 July 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also, I really don't like that people are pushing finders to reveal. If Tat is a finder I think it was a bad move for him to reveal(particularly given his info wasn't relevant), and would urge the other finder to stay hidden.

tats info took three players out of the suspect list, how is that not relevant?

Because we weren't close to lynching any of them, so the info doesn't really help us. Of the three, only ment was getting heat, and wasn't nearly at the point where a reveal would have saved us from mis-lynching. Waiting would have been better imo.

[ansible]

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:

First off, I was torn about whether I should say this at all, because I'm not sure what to make of it myself, and I fear that I may be living up my old title of Saboteur of Mafia by doing this and risking sowing uneeded confusion amongst the town. So please, please, let's think about all this, and let Tattersail try and explain before we do anything.

Ok: I was going through the posts looking for a case to make on one of the quieter players, and then I came across one of Tat's early posts, the one below:

Tattersail, on 13 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

Following the Battle of Shang Yong, Huang Zhong consolidated his power in Jing and began expanding his rule into the southern provinces. With the ample naval resources of the Jing province, Liu Yao in the east was daunted into an alliance with Huang Zhong and was cause for concern. In AD 220, Huang Zhong followed Yuan Shao and Zhang Xiu in declaring himself Emperor, founding the southern Yan Dynasty. The next few years were spent establishing an imperial bureaucracy and military across his kingdom.

There began a period of happiness and prosperity for the people. Tranquillity prevailed, the harvests were rich year after year, and old and young, with fair, round bellies, well lined, simply sang with joy. The people hastened to fulfill their state duties and vied with each other in the performance of all arts. As a natural consequence all military preparations were perfect, the granaries bursting with grain and the treasury full to overflowing.

In the far south, the Nanman King of Kings, Meng Huo, turned a covetous eye on the riches of the Yan while the southward-traveling border angered him. Gathering his forces, he marched into the southern Yan territories, pillaging and plundering. Word arrived in the capital and Huang Zhong swiftly dispatched forces under Gu Yong. A large battle ensued and King Meng Huo was captured in a Yan ambush as he fled through a narrow ravine. The King was bound and brought before Gu Yong.

"Why do you rebel against our Emperor?"

"The two River Lands belonged to others, and your lord took it from them by force, and gave himself the title of Emperor. My people have lived here for ages, and you and your cohorts invaded my country without the least excuse. How can you talk of rebellion to me?"

"You are my prisoner. Will you submit or are you still contumacious?"

"Why should I submit? You happened to find me in a narrow place. That is all."

"If I release you, what then?"

"If you release me I shall return, and when I have set my army in order, I shall come to fight you again. However, if you catch me once more, I will submit."

The King's bonds were loosed. He was clothed and refreshed, given a horse and caparisons, and sent with a guide to his own camp.

The two highlighted are imo the Yan Generals. Read it again and you'll see that i'm right or a very good guesser anyway.

Notice that he has highlighted the names of the two he believes are Yan generals in the OP, and then said at the end - "you'll see that I'm right or a very good guesser anyway." Now, as a finder, of course he'd know at least one of the names of a Yan general (who are the finders in this game)! So I thought ok, this would be a good way to confirm without doubt that Tat is actually a finder. I'll ask him what name he was given, and he'll come back to me with one of the two he highlighted. But then, this happened instead:

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Ma Zhong. Not one of the two names he identified as Yan Dynasty finders. Why then, would he say earlier those two are the names of the finders? I was convinced that he highlighted one of the two because it was his own name, and that's how he knew. But now he gives a third name.



Now, before cries of "he lied to us!" ring out, a pretty big caveat on this: I've gone through all of Tat's posts, and in literally almost every single one of them, he talks about finders, how he thinks finders work, how many kills they might have, whether one should reveal, whether both should reveal, etc. etc. This struck me as the postings of someone fixated on their own role in the game - which would of course suggest that he is a true finder. But the name thing needs to be explained by him I think.

Okay...what the fuck, Tattersail? I agree that he needs to explain this. If there's one thing you should NOT do as town, it's lie. It's very difficult to believe someone who has already been caught lying, even if they really are a town power role. I'm not raising the pitchforks and torches here but I'm just saying that if he WAS lying.... shit, man.

[ansible]

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

Roldom, on 16 July 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Also, I really don't like that people are pushing finders to reveal. If Tat is a finder I think it was a bad move for him to reveal(particularly given his info wasn't relevant), and would urge the other finder to stay hidden.

tats info took three players out of the suspect list, how is that not relevant?

Because we weren't close to lynching any of them, so the info doesn't really help us. Of the three, only ment was getting heat, and wasn't nearly at the point where a reveal would have saved us from mis-lynching. Waiting would have been better imo.

Good point.

[Gust Hubb]

ansible, on 16 July 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:

Ok, once again you seem to have either an excellent prescience or inside knowledge of what a finder can and cannot do. If finders can not go beyond seeing inno or MH (which in my impression of mafia is an exceptional paucity of information for a finder), then yes your reasoning makes sense. I think finders can see a bit more than that and I'd hazard they get both the name of whoever they find plus that person's role whether it be RI, MH, or symp. I do think the successors may not be visible, esp if they successors themselves don't know they are lined up to be the next MH.

But again, I ask you, where dod you get your confidence in your "knowledge." You continue to fail to answer that question for me whenever I want you to back up your absolute statements of truth.

As for "debulking" I think it is you that seem to have a hard time grasping what I'm getting at. The reason we save the list of highly suspicious is so we don't waste FKs stumbling upon MH. We want the best possible lynch opportunity to get MH, and we need to lynch him at least 3 times before there are two FKs. that's why I say debulk, to give us a higher probability of nailing MH.

Are you fucking serious? Not only is the information about how the finds work in the OP, but it has been said over and over by many people... how can it be that you still don't understand what a find does in this game? Are you really trying to read and comprehend people's posts or just skimming everything? Regardless, you are spreading total misinformation by speculating that finds do things that Path-Shaper says they don't do. You want to know why some people like Khell or Grief seem to know a lot about what a finder can and can't do? Because they're veterans. When you've played enough games you've seen a lot of setups, and most of the time now you don't see anything new. I know you're new, man, but I'm not giving you a free pass on the noob card because this is too ridiculous.

Vote Gust Hubb

You refuse to help us lynch, you're still voting for night, and you are actively basing your play on a misunderstanding of the game mechanics. I think you are dangerous to town because you keep trying to lead us in the obviously wrong directions even when a lot of people have explained things to you repeatedly. If you aren't MH you're doing a pretty good job of keeping us from finding him...

Wow, couldn't have done a OMGUS better (I guess it's all you can do when the game is too slow for you). As far as I've read, we've been debating a lot of things about the OP that seem unclear and hell, there are some who haven't decided if this is a one active scum (MH), if there is two MH's simultaneously, or if there are even three scum (two active, one hidden) altogether. This is but one example of the confusion, which as far as I can tell, include veterans (aren't I the only newbie here after all?).

You also seem fixated on me for some reason. There are several others who have views similar to mine (twelve and Roldom for instance) and even some people (Venge) who now agree with me on some points. Not to say that anyone agrees with me (or anyone else for that matter) at 100%, but as far as I can tell, there is still a lot of debate and confusion, and I am just working through it like everyone else.

Plus, Tat said he was holding back some info to confirm that another person claiming to be finder was indeed a finder and not just a copy cat. So, no, not everything found has been revealed yet, which makes me wonder what beyond the options of MH and inno are available to a finder.

Finally, what I don't understand is why you attack me so vehemently, claiming I'm leading us down wrong paths with wrong directions, but if I'm the only newbie in a room full of veterans and if the OP is so crystal clean, why is there inaction and clusterfuck. I said I'd vote for a day lynch if we see the other finder today, so obviously you didn't read that correctly either. Really, you need to take it down a notch to clear the red haze you seem to be living in and spouting at myself and others.

Do you need a hug?

[Khellendros]

I think Grief and ansible did a great job of answering the questions you posed to me, Gust, so I won't bother repeating the same things they said. I see Tattersail is still to come back too.

Gust, I understand your wanting us to preserve the finders' powers to kill MH until endgame, it would give a significant advantage to the town at that point. But then we might as well ask the finders to not put in any find requests to P-S at all until we get to endgame, if you're so insistent that we preserve them till then. This investigating innos business will get us nowhere.

But to get to endgame, we have to actually do something. Either lynch, or find, or both (preferably, to me). But you can't have both voting for night and not finding MH, it's completely counter-productive.

You know my position, and I think I've explained why I've taken that position sufficiently well. I want to lynch because it's safe for town to do it now even with little information, it narrows down the list of suspects for finders, it narrows down the list of options for the future MH, and it progresses the game.

I want to wait until Tattersail gets back before casting my vote, but rest assured I will be voting for someone and not night.

[Roldom]

i know its weekend guys but come on....

[Tattersail_]

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:

First off, I was torn about whether I should say this at all, because I'm not sure what to make of it myself, and I fear that I may be living up my old title of Saboteur of Mafia by doing this and risking sowing uneeded confusion amongst the town. So please, please, let's think about all this, and let Tattersail try and explain before we do anything.

Ok: I was going through the posts looking for a case to make on one of the quieter players, and then I came across one of Tat's early posts, the one below:

Tattersail, on 13 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

Following the Battle of Shang Yong, Huang Zhong consolidated his power in Jing and began expanding his rule into the southern provinces. With the ample naval resources of the Jing province, Liu Yao in the east was daunted into an alliance with Huang Zhong and was cause for concern. In AD 220, Huang Zhong followed Yuan Shao and Zhang Xiu in declaring himself Emperor, founding the southern Yan Dynasty. The next few years were spent establishing an imperial bureaucracy and military across his kingdom.

There began a period of happiness and prosperity for the people. Tranquillity prevailed, the harvests were rich year after year, and old and young, with fair, round bellies, well lined, simply sang with joy. The people hastened to fulfill their state duties and vied with each other in the performance of all arts. As a natural consequence all military preparations were perfect, the granaries bursting with grain and the treasury full to overflowing.

In the far south, the Nanman King of Kings, Meng Huo, turned a covetous eye on the riches of the Yan while the southward-traveling border angered him. Gathering his forces, he marched into the southern Yan territories, pillaging and plundering. Word arrived in the capital and Huang Zhong swiftly dispatched forces under Gu Yong. A large battle ensued and King Meng Huo was captured in a Yan ambush as he fled through a narrow ravine. The King was bound and brought before Gu Yong.

"Why do you rebel against our Emperor?"

"The two River Lands belonged to others, and your lord took it from them by force, and gave himself the title of Emperor. My people have lived here for ages, and you and your cohorts invaded my country without the least excuse. How can you talk of rebellion to me?"

"You are my prisoner. Will you submit or are you still contumacious?"

"Why should I submit? You happened to find me in a narrow place. That is all."

"If I release you, what then?"

"If you release me I shall return, and when I have set my army in order, I shall come to fight you again. However, if you catch me once more, I will submit."

The King's bonds were loosed. He was clothed and refreshed, given a horse and caparisons, and sent with a guide to his own camp.

The two highlighted are imo the Yan Generals. Read it again and you'll see that i'm right or a very good guesser anyway.

Notice that he has highlighted the names of the two he believes are Yan generals in the OP, and then said at the end - "you'll see that I'm right or a very good guesser anyway." Now, as a finder, of course he'd know at least one of the names of a Yan general (who are the finders in this game)! So I thought ok, this would be a good way to confirm without doubt that Tat is actually a finder. I'll ask him what name he was given, and he'll come back to me with one of the two he highlighted. But then, this happened instead:

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Ma Zhong. Not one of the two names he identified as Yan Dynasty finders. Why then, would he say earlier those two are the names of the finders? I was convinced that he highlighted one of the two because it was his own name, and that's how he knew. But now he gives a third name.



Now, before cries of "he lied to us!" ring out, a pretty big caveat on this: I've gone through all of Tat's posts, and in literally almost every single one of them, he talks about finders, how he thinks finders work, how many kills they might have, whether one should reveal, whether both should reveal, etc. etc. This struck me as the postings of someone fixated on their own role in the game - which would of course suggest that he is a true finder. But the name thing needs to be explained by him I think.

An honest mistake, I was fixated on the Zhong part, I thought both character where the same, until you highlighted it, I went back and checked and you're right I made a mistake here. I was trying to fit myself into the OP and I used control F to find the name Zhong. My apologies for this.

[Tattersail_]

HiddenOne, on 16 July 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

I would prefer to pursue the suspicious than clear the innocent, that's just me.

So who believes there is 1 or more symps in addition to MH & recruit? I've seen it bounced all over the place. Have we seen any symp behavior? I don't think that will be easily found until we get a confirmed MH to examine. I'm on the fence about this issue. I know the OP can be read that there are other generals in MHs faction which could equal symps. They could also be the names of the RIs who are recruitable as successors to MH, right? This mechanic would over power town though wouldn't it, if we have to kill MH 6 times and there are symp(s) at the same time. There would be at least 3 active scum team at any time.


@Tat - I would like to understand more about your role. What can you tell us? Communication, shared kills, etc. Let's narrow down some speculation about the mechanics of the FKs. If this is something that will give scum an advantage, just say so, I'd rather wonder than give them more info at this time.

If I reveal everything in my ability then anyone can come out and say they are finder because they'll have all the information, that is why i'm holding stuff back.

[Khellendros]

I'm convinced by your explanation Tattersail - that and the fact that literally every one of your posts before you revealed talked about finders

If you're going to do a find on HiddenOne, then I propose we lynch one of the other quieter players. The reasons being: We all seem to be agreed that MH is likelier to be hanging out as one of the quieter players; and even if they turn out to be inno, on top of all the reasons given in earlier posts, they won't be as big a loss to the town seeing as they didn't contribute overmuch anyway thus far.

Vote Shinrei

Because he's been just about the leat opinionated person in this game. One joke vote, one vote on Ment, quickly swapped to twelve, which was even more quickly retracted. Other than that, he's just posted one line jokey comments.

[Tattersail_]

as well, the quieter players would be easier for the MH to jump into. Anyway I agree with Khell, we need to lynch and the ones hiding are the best places to start. I'd prefer a lynch before we actually find MH, that way we still have three of them to go. Plus when it gets down to a lower pool of players we should be able to lynch the MH a few times in a row or the chances would be higher anyway.

Vote Shinrei

[Shinrei]

Well, if it will help town to narrow the field by voting me out, I'll even self-vote to help the game (if that seems to be the right play for town).

I've been having a weekend though, which is why I'm not contributing. A friend from the States is visiting, and we've been tooling around Tokyo.

Can someone explain to me though, what we stand to lose by voting night?

[Grief]

Shinrei, on 17 July 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

Well, if it will help town to narrow the field by voting me out, I'll even self-vote to help the game (if that seems to be the right play for town).

I've been having a weekend though, which is why I'm not contributing. A friend from the States is visiting, and we've been tooling around Tokyo.

Can someone explain to me though, what we stand to lose by voting night?

It reduces the lynch pool by a very small amount, while lynching reduces the find pool considerably. We also get more total lynches by lynching before D-Day using the find-kills later.