[Tattersail_]

i'm going to find Hidden one. He is one of the two low posters that is not receiving any attention. I'm not sure voting night is ever a good idea, i'd prefer to lynch someone.

[Tattersail_]

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

[Roldom]

if we narrow down the list now and get a successful lynch on MH, instead of a FK, the chance o town winning goes up significantly

[Tattersail_]

but going no lynch after no lynch isn't mafia. not just that, but the finders will be more effective towards the end of the game rather than the beginning, if we lynch our suspects down then why wouldn't that help town?

[HiddenOne]

I would love confirmation of the truth of Tatts reveal. This has worried me a bit. The second finder could help us if he has already checked him out, but I'm not asking for a reveal for them, so...I don't know.


If we choose to vote night and not lynch, this game will take forever. I still think if we lynch, things will progress as long as we stop if we just hit innos after maybe 2 days. The reset of the suspect list each time MH is found will drag this thing way out.

I will vote night if I need to

[HiddenOne]

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Explain this post

[Khellendros]

HiddenOne, on 16 July 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Explain this post

I asked him what name he was given, and I'll explain why in my next post.

[HiddenOne]

Khellendros, on 16 July 2011 - 12:15 PM, said:

HiddenOne, on 16 July 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Explain this post

I asked him what name he was given, and I'll explain why in my next post.

OK, just found your post, it was sandwiched on thread.

I'll be around some today, maybe with a little less demand on my time, so I'll try to participate as much as possible.

[Khellendros]

First off, I was torn about whether I should say this at all, because I'm not sure what to make of it myself, and I fear that I may be living up my old title of Saboteur of Mafia by doing this and risking sowing uneeded confusion amongst the town. So please, please, let's think about all this, and let Tattersail try and explain before we do anything.

Ok: I was going through the posts looking for a case to make on one of the quieter players, and then I came across one of Tat's early posts, the one below:

Tattersail, on 13 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 12 July 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

Following the Battle of Shang Yong, Huang Zhong consolidated his power in Jing and began expanding his rule into the southern provinces. With the ample naval resources of the Jing province, Liu Yao in the east was daunted into an alliance with Huang Zhong and was cause for concern. In AD 220, Huang Zhong followed Yuan Shao and Zhang Xiu in declaring himself Emperor, founding the southern Yan Dynasty. The next few years were spent establishing an imperial bureaucracy and military across his kingdom.

There began a period of happiness and prosperity for the people. Tranquillity prevailed, the harvests were rich year after year, and old and young, with fair, round bellies, well lined, simply sang with joy. The people hastened to fulfill their state duties and vied with each other in the performance of all arts. As a natural consequence all military preparations were perfect, the granaries bursting with grain and the treasury full to overflowing.

In the far south, the Nanman King of Kings, Meng Huo, turned a covetous eye on the riches of the Yan while the southward-traveling border angered him. Gathering his forces, he marched into the southern Yan territories, pillaging and plundering. Word arrived in the capital and Huang Zhong swiftly dispatched forces under Gu Yong. A large battle ensued and King Meng Huo was captured in a Yan ambush as he fled through a narrow ravine. The King was bound and brought before Gu Yong.

"Why do you rebel against our Emperor?"

"The two River Lands belonged to others, and your lord took it from them by force, and gave himself the title of Emperor. My people have lived here for ages, and you and your cohorts invaded my country without the least excuse. How can you talk of rebellion to me?"

"You are my prisoner. Will you submit or are you still contumacious?"

"Why should I submit? You happened to find me in a narrow place. That is all."

"If I release you, what then?"

"If you release me I shall return, and when I have set my army in order, I shall come to fight you again. However, if you catch me once more, I will submit."

The King's bonds were loosed. He was clothed and refreshed, given a horse and caparisons, and sent with a guide to his own camp.

The two highlighted are imo the Yan Generals. Read it again and you'll see that i'm right or a very good guesser anyway.

Notice that he has highlighted the names of the two he believes are Yan generals in the OP, and then said at the end - "you'll see that I'm right or a very good guesser anyway." Now, as a finder, of course he'd know at least one of the names of a Yan general (who are the finders in this game)! So I thought ok, this would be a good way to confirm without doubt that Tat is actually a finder. I'll ask him what name he was given, and he'll come back to me with one of the two he highlighted. But then, this happened instead:

Tattersail, on 16 July 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

You are Ma Zhong, General who Tames the South, of the Yan Dynasty.

You are currently of the Town.

I'm not going to word how I received the information because if a second finder reveals then i will ask them what PS said once a person has been investigated. That way it will hold more weight and I could belive them without finding them

Ma Zhong. Not one of the two names he identified as Yan Dynasty finders. Why then, would he say earlier those two are the names of the finders? I was convinced that he highlighted one of the two because it was his own name, and that's how he knew. But now he gives a third name.



Now, before cries of "he lied to us!" ring out, a pretty big caveat on this: I've gone through all of Tat's posts, and in literally almost every single one of them, he talks about finders, how he thinks finders work, how many kills they might have, whether one should reveal, whether both should reveal, etc. etc. This struck me as the postings of someone fixated on their own role in the game - which would of course suggest that he is a true finder. But the name thing needs to be explained by him I think.

[Grief]

Roldom, on 16 July 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:02 AM, said:

I'm not really sure MH wouldn't fake reveal. He's got a bunch of lives to fall back on and so it could easily be worth gambling to gain trust for a few days, direct the innos a bit towards people he thinks threaten him, or draw out the true finders(since it's bad for MH to have the finders unknown late in the game, since they can thwart him even if he gets a majority).

how can MH get a majority? the only chance that can happen is when we are down to 3 players....

If you believe this to be true, how do you expect MH to ever have a chance of winning?

Using the finders first still seems like a bad idea to me.

Narrowing the lynch pool?

THey find MH 3 times. Then 2 of them are added to the possible people MH can be. By using the finders first, our net gain is reducing the lynch pool by one. That is it. One less suspect.

The same is not true for lynches. Each lynch serves to reduce the finder pool, once daily, as well as the lynch pool. Regardless of when the finders find, we are going to have to lynch anyway.

If we lynch before find, we reduce the finder pool considerably(we can lynch three or four people, and that's with a WCS of four scum).

Let's assume that we find before lynch. 3 MHs later, we're down to 9 players. Assuming 4 scum that gives us 2 lynches before scum have a majority, and only 1 before they can block any lynch.

This is perhaps an extreme example( 4 is, imo unlikely).

So, BCS is 2 scum.

Find first. 9 players, 2 scum. We get 5 lynches to find MH three times.

Lynch first. We get 7. At that point we are reduced to 2 scum, 1 town, 2 finders. However, if the finders still have 3 kills we win. As MH dies, it becomes 2v2, then both MH are killed.

In neither best or worst case scenario does lynching later make sense to me. We drastically reduce our possible lynches, and only reduce the lynch pool by one. Lynching first reduces the pool for the finders considerably, and also nets us extra lynches. And those aren't even the only bonuses. In the event we screw up and MH gets a majority, the finders can still win it for us. Finders normally aren't able to find symps, whereas lynching we may hit one.

[Gust Hubb]

Ok, just to explain a little more, the reason why i think we should leave the most suspicious people out of the finds is to debulk the lynching option list without using up a FK. Tat, I agree that some early lynches may not harm us and actually may help a little. That being said, I also don't mind waiting for the finders to finish their initial scans of the population before turning us loose to WIFOM and hopefully lynch MH (both of which ansible eagerly awaits). I think things will get messy once two FKs have been used up and we are on our own. Hopefully we will get lucky and nail MH a couple of times in day lynches before that limit is reached, but I'll take all the help I can get.

Oh, and I still want to know who the second finder is, esp. since Tat's reveal is called into question. We really need to get that loose end tied up before I am willing to proceed with day lynching. For now, as a place holder and since others, whew, are in agreement and working together:

Vote Night

But Tat, if the second finder reveals and has already confirmed your identity, I will help with a lynch today.

Edit, bolding vote.

This post has been edited by Gust Hubb: 16 July 2011 - 01:37 PM

[Khellendros]

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

Ok, just to explain a little more, the reason why i think we should leave the most suspicious people out of the finds is to debulk the lynching option list without using up a FK. Tat, I agree that some early lynches may not harm us and actually may help a little. That being said, I also don't mind waiting for the finders to finish their initial scans of the population before turning us loose to WIFOM and hopefully lynch MH (both of which ansible eagerly awaits). I think things will get messy once two FKs have been used up and we are on our own. Hopefully we will get lucky and nail MH a couple of times in day lynches before that limit is reached, but I'll take all the help I can get.

Oh, and I still want to know who the second finder is, esp. since Tat's reveal is called into question. We really need to get that loose end tied up before I am willing to proceed with day lynching. For now, as a place holder and since others, whew, are in agreement and working together:

Vote Night

But Tat, if the second finder reveals and has already confirmed your identity, I will help with a lynch today.

Edit, bolding vote.

The second finder can only confirm Tat's identity if Tat is MH and he kills him. Finding him inno does not equal Tat being a finder, because he could still be a symp. I'm sure I've said this before.

As for the finding people inno thing......if you already suspect them as inno then what is the point of doing finds on them? Just go after the people who you suspect of not being inno. If you already think they're inno, then why would you attempt a lynch on them in the first place???

Read what you yourself have written - "we should leave the most suspicious people out of the finds to debulk the lynching option list." But if you already have a list of the most suspicious people in mind, aren't you going to concentrate on trying to lynch them anyway, rather than the people you find less suspicious?

[Gust Hubb]

Ok, once again you seem to have either an excellent prescience or inside knowledge of what a finder can and cannot do. If finders can not go beyond seeing inno or MH (which in my impression of mafia is an exceptional paucity of information for a finder), then yes your reasoning makes sense. I think finders can see a bit more than that and I'd hazard they get both the name of whoever they find plus that person's role whether it be RI, MH, or symp. I do think the successors may not be visible, esp if they successors themselves don't know they are lined up to be the next MH.

But again, I ask you, where dod you get your confidence in your "knowledge." You continue to fail to answer that question for me whenever I want you to back up your absolute statements of truth.

As for "debulking" I think it is you that seem to have a hard time grasping what I'm getting at. The reason we save the list of highly suspicious is so we don't waste FKs stumbling upon MH. We want the best possible lynch opportunity to get MH, and we need to lynch him at least 3 times before there are two FKs. that's why I say debulk, to give us a higher probability of nailing MH.

[Gust Hubb]

Btw, your constipated insistence on knowing what finders do and straining to make sure we get the point makes me think you may be a finder (or MH if you want to confuse things, but I deem that less likely). If you are a finder, then you have made me very worried, because the finders are a whole lot weaker than I am assuming. Can you confirm or deny?

[HiddenOne]

I would prefer to pursue the suspicious than clear the innocent, that's just me.

So who believes there is 1 or more symps in addition to MH & recruit? I've seen it bounced all over the place. Have we seen any symp behavior? I don't think that will be easily found until we get a confirmed MH to examine. I'm on the fence about this issue. I know the OP can be read that there are other generals in MHs faction which could equal symps. They could also be the names of the RIs who are recruitable as successors to MH, right? This mechanic would over power town though wouldn't it, if we have to kill MH 6 times and there are symp(s) at the same time. There would be at least 3 active scum team at any time.


@Tat - I would like to understand more about your role. What can you tell us? Communication, shared kills, etc. Let's narrow down some speculation about the mechanics of the FKs. If this is something that will give scum an advantage, just say so, I'd rather wonder than give them more info at this time.

[Grief]

The point of symps is that finds/CF are useless against them. The symp role would be pretty useless otherwise.

Also, the "paucity of information" you talk about is common. Finders who find out peoples specific role are far more the exception than finders who are simply told alignment, in my experience.

[Grief]

Also, I really don't like that people are pushing finders to reveal. If Tat is a finder I think it was a bad move for him to reveal(particularly given his info wasn't relevant), and would urge the other finder to stay hidden.

[Gust Hubb]

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

The point of symps is that finds/CF are useless against them. The symp role would be pretty useless otherwise.

Also, the "paucity of information" you talk about is common. Finders who find out peoples specific role are far more the exception than finders who are simply told alignment, in my experience.

Ok, thanks Grief. As you all know, I am very new to mafia, and in the games I've played, CF's have been pretty ripped.

[HiddenOne]

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

Btw, your constipated insistence on knowing what finders do and straining to make sure we get the point makes me think you may be a finder (or MH if you want to confuse things, but I deem that less likely). If you are a finder, then you have made me very worried, because the finders are a whole lot weaker than I am assuming. Can you confirm or deny?

Some would consider this scummy, GH

[HiddenOne]

Gust Hubb, on 16 July 2011 - 02:24 PM, said:

Grief, on 16 July 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

The point of symps is that finds/CF are useless against them. The symp role would be pretty useless otherwise.

Also, the "paucity of information" you talk about is common. Finders who find out peoples specific role are far more the exception than finders who are simply told alignment, in my experience.

Ok, thanks Grief. As you all know, I am very new to mafia, and in the games I've played, CF's have been pretty ripped.

I agree with Grief