[worry]

I think in the book Dany offers up as much sympathy as she possibly can to Vis, but it all comes from her POV as a victim of his rages and abuses, and as a little sister (and younger still) who has always looked up to him, so it's easy to dismiss. But there's some textual consideration of Vis being a kid when the Mad King was overthrown and he had to be swept away into hiding, and how he was groomed to be a king from the start by adults around him, how when that old Kingsguard knight finally died he and Dany had to become street beggars, and Vis became the target of lots of cruelty. So all that combined with the natural Targ tendency towards insanity, and his spiral into what he became seems fairly natural. He definitely had an ego, but it was also something a bit more pathological that allowed him to think the way he did.

[Cotillion]

Tirion is one of the best characters in this epic saga. Belish too, i think - bothe are crazy and very smart people. Everyone must to be careful with them - the latest episode showing us this.

[Ceda Cicero]

Cotillion, on 25 May 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

Tirion is one of the best characters in this epic saga. Belish too, i think - bothe are crazy and very smart people. Everyone must to be careful with them - the latest episode showing us this.

Agreed on both counts, though my thinking is those two will be on opposite sides of the proverbial battlefield if they ever meet again (not that they were ever particularly chummy.)

Littlefinger is the Shadowthrone of SoIaF - not anything to do with characterization or motive, just in the sense that he's probably going to end up on top of whatever shitheap is left at the end of everything, and he always wins because he never plays fair.

[amphibian]

Ceda Cicero, on 25 May 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

Littlefinger is the Shadowthrone of SoIaF - not anything to do with characterization or motive, just in the sense that he's probably going to end up on top of whatever shitheap is left at the end of everything, and he always wins because he never plays fair.

Littlefinger can't lead the people - and he can't fight either. Given Martin's propensity to emphasize the randomness of death, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being obliterated by errant dragon fire while walking to greet Dany or something out of left field like that.

[Tyr]

I felt so bad for Viserys. Sure he is delusional, but he has absolutely nothing. Dany is pretty nuts herself, but she has had some sort of backing all throughout the series, and with backing you are allowed to be nuts (take daddy for example).

I am glad HBO made Vis more sympathetic than he was in the books.

HOW AMAZING WAS DANY! WOW. EATING THAT HEART LIKE A QUEEN. She fears nothing, blood of the dragon, rightful queen of the universe. I hope she wins every in the game.

[Kanese S's]

I dunno, I've never been able to find Viserys sympathetic. Yeah, he's been through a lot, but he's a total abusive douchebag to his little sis. Not cool. Hence my sneer both when I read his death in the book and when I saw it on screen.

[Tyr]

One of the greatest things the series has accomplished in my opinion, is making Viserys a much more sympathetic character than he was in the books. He was a tragic case even if he is batshit insane (but who is to say Dany isnt..) The difference between Viserys and Dany is their adapting mechanisms. Viserys obviously deflects his frustration and anger onto Dany and thats why most readers would hate him.

Think about it. The boy has absolutely nothing going for him and on top of that, they mock him - call him the beggar king all round the known world. The one thing in his life he has control of is his naive little sister and although he treats her unfairly, who wouldn't do the same in that situation? Its not like her learnt any values... He was forced from his home into exile and ran around scared for all his life. He doesnt know any better.

Towards the end he acted in desperation. It is understandable.

Viserys has become my new Theon.

[Gothos]

Nothing in the world could make me feel any pity for Viserys. He's the kind of Targaryen that would become Aerys II. Daenerys is more like Rhaegar (or, for a guess, Aegon the Conqueror). Exactly the way Viserys deals with things is what led to Robert's rebellion, and giving him the crown of gold was very nice of Drogo, a lot better than, say, installing him as a new king in Westeros. A rabid dog needs to be put down, and Viserys was nothing more than a rabid dog.
Tragic? No, Brienne was tragic. The Hound was/is tragic. I even find more understanding for Gregor Clegane than Viserys. There's only like two characters I despise more in the setting, and that would be Cersei and Lysa. Oh, and perhaps the Biter and Rorge.

[Tyr]

I do find it amusing that you find the Hound redeemable but not Viserys. I guess thats how it was supposed to be though. Dany is sweet young princess who is terrorized by her "evil" brother and Viserys is a delusional monster who will stop at nothing to get his crown.

Not really. Viserys is more than anything a product of his environment. Judging from the series alone (been too long since I read the books), his actions are understandable, not justified, but understandable. He made one bad decision too many and was impetuous and that led to his downfall. But nothing was handed to him on a silver platter, nothing at all.

[blackzoid]

Its the badass effect. People tend to have more sympathy for unsavory characters if they are competant at fighting or at some other skill like planning (Tyrion/Littlefinger)
Hence Viserys is seen in a less positive light than Sandor. People generally despise weakness and thats what Viserys/Joffrey represent.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 26 May 2011 - 11:53 AM

[Cause]

Is it just me or did you picture Tyrion as being uglier? So much is made of his hideous appearance and being a dwarf. This tyrion whilst a dwarf is baring that quite normal looking.

[Gothos]

I redeem Sandor for several reasons:
1. With an elder brother like that, you're going to grow into a cynic, that's for sure.
2. What he does on Joffrey's orders, he doesn't do for his own ambition or visions of glory.
3. He does not justify himself.

He does save Loras' life. He does, all in all, save Arya's, too.

Spoiler

Now, what does Viserys ever do? He sells off his sister in a foolish, futile attempt to manipulate the most powerful guy on the continent. Then goes on further antagonising everyone around him for no reason at all. Then he draws his sword in Vas Dothrak... really? Seriously? How dumb can you get? That guy wanted to rule something? Not to mention how jealous he is of Dany, and how he's trying to make her feel little and helpless.
We hate weakness, you say? Perhaps, but take Samwell Tarly. He's weak as hell, cowardly, not even all that smart either - but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who hates him. Same goes for, say, Tommen, Edmure, Lancel, Cleos, Mace, even Theon. Sansa seemed very weak in GoT but she comes through later, and by FFC she's a character I genuinely liked to read about. We hate weakness, but mostly because weak people who think they deserve more tend to have seriously abhorrent personalities - Lysa, little Robert Arryn, Viserys, Joffrey. Death seems to find them satisfyingly so far, though.

[blackzoid]

Yes, its the weak bad guys I am talking about. Not the weak protaganosts like Sam. Or charming ones like Tommen.
However, strong ataganosts are also not as despised as weak atagonists. Hence support of Twyin/Gregor (GREGOR over Viserys! Really?) over Lysa, little Robert Arryn, Viserys, Joffrey.
Also those characters don't have any character progression. Nor any POV. Its easy not to give them any sympathy then.

[End of Disc One]

Cause, on 26 May 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:

Is it just me or did you picture Tyrion as being uglier? So much is made of his hideous appearance and being a dwarf. This tyrion whilst a dwarf is baring that quite normal looking.

Would you rather they got a worse actor just so that he would be uglier?

[Gothos]

Why Gregor? Well, not justified or redeemed, but finally understandable.
Tell me, have you ever had a real migraine?


Now, that behind us - if what you're saying is correct, and weakness is despised, then I'll say: all the better. If you're not up for the task, step the fuck down, being weak is no excuse for failiure. Especially if your decisions define the destiny of kingdoms.
Take Cersei, though. She's not exactly weak, even if she thinks she's a lot smarter than she is. Her having her own PoV didn't do her any good, I'd say.

Now, Tywin... you maybe could call him an antagonist, but I wouldn't call him the villain. It's what I like about the series - even though Tywin can come across as a Complete Monster, you can't argue about his effectiveness in rule, and sure as hell he had his own view on the whole situation. It's a general theme for the Lannisters, I think - in aGoT, it's all about the Starks... but in further books you come to realize that's just one side of the conflict.
However, I'm fairly certain that if Joff, Viserys or Lysa got their PoV, I still wouldn't give a damn about them. Like with Cersei.

[Tapper]

Tywin is the kind of person who would have truly united Westeros in a no-nonsense combination of war and politics were he king. Ruthless, rich, surrounded by capable family members, able to command loyalty and respect even from his enemies... the whole package. A Conqueror.

Added to that is the fact that his sole interest is in wielding power - not in amassing it, not in getting it, not in using it to get laid or rob others of their riches, but solely interested in using it in such a way that he and by extension the kingdoms benefit. Stannis is much of the same mold, only more brittle and less flexible.

Viserys... I don't agree with you on everything. I don't know if he was stupid to bargain with Dany. This is a world with a very traditional value system - listen to the rather humanist Ned talking to Sansa/ Arya: "I'll find you a husband..." Look at what Jon Arryn brokered for Robert, how Tywin sold Cersei, how the Tully girls were bargaining chips to alliances with The Vale and Winterfell.

So, aside from being his sister, Daenerys was also Viserys sole asset left to him and she was very much his to use. Let's not forget: she was also his future wife by tradition. He bargained with her, knowing her husband would thereby gain a powerful motive to dispose of him, as there would be a claim on the Throne through Daenerys' own blood or that of her kid.

Finally, Viserys was made by the men around him. Illyrio's motivations were not to be trusted, but he had a return in mind. It was very much Illyrio I think who bargained with Drogo, and who also believed in Drogo's intention to cross the sea, because why would he set this all up and go and consult with Varys in King's Landing, otherwise?

So, was Viserys desperate? Oh yes. Haughty, arrogant, naive, badly informed, idealistic, a bit out of tune with reality and living in his own dreams? Yeah, certainly.

But bound to be a new Mad King? He would have been a bad ruler, yes. But aside from the fact that he was young, weak kings offer frighteningly capable people like Varys, Littlefinger, Illyrio and others who like the shadow behind the Throne boundless opportunities, because they will have massive influence, while at the same time, they have everything to gain by the kingdom being stable. So, the Kingdom would be a much worse place to live in, but it would also be stable with a well enforced judging system.

Besides, Robert's pitiful and a bad king too, and I bet that those same things that kept Robert distracted would have kept Viserys occupied (women, drink, hunt, and the occassional bloodletting). Viserys was essentially a have-not, and giving him stuff would have kept him happy and in a gilded cage as long as you can sell to him that this cage is what kingship means.

So, I doubt he he's mentally unstable. He's just being tricked and no-one around him is willing to dispell that illusion until Drogo does it in a rather thorough way.

[Abyss]

End of Disc One, on 26 May 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

Cause, on 26 May 2011 - 11:53 AM, said:

Is it just me or did you picture Tyrion as being uglier? So much is made of his hideous appearance and being a dwarf. This tyrion whilst a dwarf is baring that quite normal looking.

Would you rather they got a worse actor just so that he would be uglier?

Tyrion starts out the books being described as 'an ugly dawrf' and then gets scarred somewhere, i can't remember exactly when.

For the purposes of tv, Peter Dinklage, who is essentially a good looking guy notwithstanding that he's a dwarf and even before the fact that he's a brilliant actor, makes the character more palatable to the audience.

In the books we come to like Tyrion by way of his pov more than anything else, but tv doesn't give us that so they have to approach him differently and imnsho, brilliantly. He steals every scene he's in.

[blackzoid]

Gothos, on 26 May 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

Why Gregor? Well, not justified or redeemed, but finally understandable.
Tell me, have you ever had a real migraine?

No.
But Gregor has also butchered and raped women and threw babies to their deaths.
Viserys did none of the above. He may have threated but didn't actually do it. Morally Viserys is far above Gregor in the grand scheme of things. Yet Viserys is weak. Hence we despise him as a loser. Gregor isn't a loser. But he is a monster. We can't blame the migraines for all of that.

Gothos, on 26 May 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

Now, that behind us - if what you're saying is correct, and weakness is despised, then I'll say: all the better. If you're not up for the task, step the fuck down, being weak is no excuse for failiure. Especially if your decisions define the destiny of kingdoms.
Take Cersei, though. She's not exactly weak, even if she thinks she's a lot smarter than she is. Her having her own PoV didn't do her any good, I'd say.

Exactly, the badass effect. Thats why we don't like weak antagonists. The fact that she thinks she is a lot smarter than she is, makes her weak. Thats why all of us readers hate her. Unlike Tywin who is as smart as he thinks he is. Yet Tywin has also orchrestrated the sacking of a defenceless city (Kings Landing at the end of Robert's rebellion). We admire Tywin for his ruthlesness yet despise Little Robert Aryn for his pettiness and Cersei for her stupidty Lysa and Joffrey as well. Morally? They are all far above Twyin. Its just that Twyin fits the Chessmaster trope so we cheer him on in a certain way.

Gothos, on 26 May 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

Now, Tywin... you maybe could call him an antagonist, but I wouldn't call him the villain. It's what I like about the series - even though Tywin can come across as a Complete Monster, you can't argue about his effectiveness in rule, and sure as hell he had his own view on the whole situation. It's a general theme for the Lannisters, I think - in aGoT, it's all about the Starks... but in further books you come to realize that's just one side of the conflict.

True. I like that too.

Gothos, on 26 May 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

However, I'm fairly certain that if Joff, Viserys or Lysa got their PoV, I still wouldn't give a damn about them. Like with Cersei.

Because they are weak characters. The badass effect.
Viserys (and the tv show made this clearer to me than the book did) did not have an ideal upbringing at all. That all through the first book, we sympathise with Dany, not Viserys. Yet Viserys did have the responsibility of carrying on the family name. And had to make do with the hand he was dealt. The fact that his did it very badly doesn't endear us to him.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 26 May 2011 - 01:46 PM

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 May 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

Tyrion starts out the books being described as 'an ugly dawrf' and then gets scarred somewhere, i can't remember exactly when.

The Battle Of Blackwater at the end of ACOK. Ser Meryn (presumably on Cersei or Tywin's orders) does his face in with an axe. he then is missing a chunk of nose and has a scar from the bottom of one eye diagonally across his face down to his chin.

Abyss, on 26 May 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

For the purposes of tv, Peter Dinklage, who is essentially a good looking guy notwithstanding that he's a dwarf and even before the fact that he's a brilliant actor, makes the character more palatable to the audience.

I would also add that in the period of time this takes place in, just being a dwarf would have made him "ugly" to many people. As he mentions himself, if he weren't the son of a powerful lord, he'd likely have been left out in a garbage heap to die as a baby.

Abyss, on 26 May 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

In the books we come to like Tyrion by way of his pov more than anything else, but tv doesn't give us that so they have to approach him differently and imnsho, brilliantly. He steals every scene he's in.

Agreed. Completely.

[Ceda Cicero]

Tyr, on 26 May 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

I do find it amusing that you find the Hound redeemable but not Viserys. I guess thats how it was supposed to be though. Dany is sweet young princess who is terrorized by her "evil" brother and Viserys is a delusional monster who will stop at nothing to get his crown.

Not really. Viserys is more than anything a product of his environment. Judging from the series alone (been too long since I read the books), his actions are understandable, not justified, but understandable. He made one bad decision too many and was impetuous and that led to his downfall. But nothing was handed to him on a silver platter, nothing at all.

I'm thinking seriously about repping you just for making three consecutive posts that don't so much as mention Bronn.