[Werthead]

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How is a published work post-humously continuing an author's story any different from what's been done to WoT, Middle-earth, Dune or Bourne, to name the obvious ones?

In WoT's case, Robert Jordan left behind 200,000 words and hours of dictation of drafts, fragments, book and chapter outlines and character information. He specifically instructed Tom Doherty and Harriet McDougall to find a writer to finish the final WHEEL OF TIME book and had just under two years from the diagnosis of his fatal condition to his passing to make preperations for that end.

With Middle-earth, no new information or fiction has been created by anybody other than JRR Tolkien. The posthumous works have been assembled by Christopher Tolkien out of JRRT's own writings, edited with detailed footnotes explaining exactly where the material has come from and why he chose a certain draft to use and not another. There has never been any posthumous creation of new material related to Middle-earth, just a certain amount of packaging and re-packaging of material JRRT left behind when he died in 1973. And Chris Tolkien has also released virtually all of the raw notes, materials and drafts so fans can judge for themselves if he's made the right calls or not.

DUNE is exactly what we don't want to happen. Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert claimed that they had a significant amount of notes and drafts from Frank Herbert to work from. Later on, it was revealed that these claims were somewhere between extreme exaggerations and out-and-out lies, to the unrelenting fury of the DUNE fanbase. Frank Herbert's notes were very, very brief and thin (one sheet of A4, according to some) and consisted of a few thoughts for the planned seventh book in the series, certainly nothing at all for eleven (so far, with more coming) more books in the setting.

At the moment here and now, and GRRM himself has said this could change if he was halfway through the last book with the finish line in sight, there are no notes and no material to work from. Any other writer finishing the book would basically have to make it up, and their guesswork would be no more or no less valid than anything you or I or a million other fans could come up with in some forum discussion somewhere. That's what makes it fanfiction: it wouldn't be GRRM's vision or story on the page. With the Sanderjordan situation, we know that Jordan would have told the details of the story differently, but the events are what he had planned and he did write the final chapter of the series before he died, so that situation is a lot more faithful to his vision.

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I am far from buying that a story is quality just because a publisher decides to release it to the public with a cover and a marketing campaign, but its far from fanfiction, the moreso if an actual author with some amount of talent is doing it. Or are you going to suggest that if, by some weird convergence, GRRM kicked and SE was hired to finish the series, you wouldn't be right there drooling with the rest of us? (or conversely horrified if it was, say, Christopher Golden or whoever, but i digress...)

Erikson is insufficiently talented to write a satisfying conclusion to ASoIaF. And before you complain, I would also say that GRRM is insufficiently talented to write a satisfying conclusion to any future MALAZAN series. They are very different authors with very different styles. Erikson is lucky in that ICE has a compatible style with his (if less florid), just as Jordan was lucky that Sanderson was able to adapt his style to match the other WoT books (if imperfectly). But Martin and Erikson write very differently with different focuses, and one writing in the other's world wouldn't really work.

The only author whom I think could write an ASoIaF book other than Martin is Daniel Abraham, who has a similar style and who has worked with GRRM on many other projects (including the ASoIaF comics). And Abraham, as a close friend of GRRM's, wouldn't even think about it without Martin's express permission or access to his notes and with some idea of where Martin was taking the story as it ended.

[MTS]

I'm inclined to agree with Wert on this one. In the case of Tolkien, he had probably just as much if not more notes than Jordan did, and Christopher Tolkien is more an editor than an author in what he does (along with GGK). Dune is a different story, but still backed up by a lot of Frank Herbert's notes, even if they didn't bring a tenth of the skill to the subject matter as he did. Don't know enough about Bourne to comment, but in at least 3/4 of those cases, apart from a couple of editorial liberties, all of them are based on some form of the author's vision. If that doesn't exist in a written form in Martin's case, and doesn't exist when (god forbid) he croaks, then I'd say it's very much different.

And as much as I love SE, I wouldn't want him going anywhere near ASOIAF, mostly for the reasons Wert outlined.

And if another author decides to continue someone's story after they die, it may be 'canon', but it's still the vision of a fan and not the original author, so it's really just very talented fan-fiction. I'm not saying that I wouldn't read it because of that, but it doesn't change what it is.

This post has been edited by MTS: 18 March 2011 - 01:15 AM

[Abyss]

Werthead, on 17 March 2011 - 09:53 PM, said:

...DUNE is exactly what we don't want to happen. Kevin J. Anderson and Brian Herbert claimed that they had a significant amount of notes and drafts from Frank Herbert to work from. Later on, it was revealed that these claims were somewhere between extreme exaggerations and out-and-out lies, to the unrelenting fury of the DUNE fanbase. Frank Herbert's notes were very, very brief and thin (one sheet of A4, according to some) and consisted of a few thoughts for the planned seventh book in the series, certainly nothing at all for eleven (so far, with more coming) more books in the setting.

Thus DUNE of any of them proves my point that dollars will tell, regardless of whatever the author left behind. Same goes for Bourne - i don't think it's ever been suggested that Ludlum had any intention of writing more Bourne books before he dided, but the movies were a success and Lustbadder needed a pool in his backyard and there we go.

Point being, you could argue until you're taupe in the face that it's fanfiction, but if the publisher put out a post-mortem book, the vast majority of fans would buy it, i guarantee it.

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...With the Sanderjordan situation, we know that Jordan would have told the details of the story differently, but the events are what he had planned and he did write the final chapter of the series before he died, so that situation is a lot more faithful to his vision.

And my admittedly cynical point is that a dead author's vision is worth less than a live stockholder's dividend.

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Erikson is insufficiently talented to write a satisfying conclusion to ASoIaF. ...

SE was simply a locally loved example. I can't say one way or the other if he or anyone else could bring SIF to a solid conclusion... hell, the jury's still out on GRRM on that point...

MTS, on 18 March 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

...And if another author decides to continue someone's story after they die, it may be 'canon', but it's still the vision of a fan and not the original author, so it's really just very talented fan-fiction. I'm not saying that I wouldn't read it because of that, but it doesn't change what it is.

If we really wanted to push this debate i would start with the point that fanfiction is for the most part free crap on the internet posted by people with too much time on their hands and a curious fixation on Kirk and Spock bumping uglies. Or Harry and Snape or Willow and Buffy or whatever... and I say this as someone who wrote far too much X-men ffic back in the 90s, albeit lacking the mandatory Wolverine/Cyclops Danger Room pr0n...

But my point is that i draw a distinction between the free amature amusements and a story written by someone who was paid dollars to do the work, have it reviewed by an actual editor and published by an actual publisher and show up on the NYT bestseller list for +/- six weeks.

But seeing as how GRRM is not dead, and appears to be in good health, this is an academic debate and hopefully one we never need to see play out for real.

[MTS]

Abyss, on 18 March 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

MTS, on 18 March 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

...And if another author decides to continue someone's story after they die, it may be 'canon', but it's still the vision of a fan and not the original author, so it's really just very talented fan-fiction. I'm not saying that I wouldn't read it because of that, but it doesn't change what it is.

If we really wanted to push this debate i would start with the point that fanfiction is for the most part free crap on the internet posted by people with too much time on their hands and a curious fixation on Kirk and Spock bumping uglies. Or Harry and Snape or Willow and Buffy or whatever... and I say this as someone who wrote far too much X-men ffic back in the 90s, albeit lacking the mandatory Wolverine/Cyclops Danger Room pr0n...

But my point is that i draw a distinction between the free amature amusements and a story written by someone who was paid dollars to do the work, have it reviewed by an actual editor and published by an actual publisher and show up on the NYT bestseller list for +/- six weeks.

But seeing as how GRRM is not dead, and appears to be in good health, this is an academic debate and hopefully one we never need to see play out for real.

You're conflating what is now the norm for fan-fiction with the actual meaning of the term - that is, work set in an fictional universe not written by the author and not able to be directly tied with the author's original vision, if such a thing even exists. Dollars and professional editing/publishing is irrelevant in terms of what it actually is. I'm not tarring it with the same brush as the amateur amusements that have infected the term, just saying it is work written according to somebody else's imagination. I'd definitely buy any professional work that continues ASOIAF if, god forbid, such a situation occurs.

And yes, this is a pointless academic debate, and I seriously doubt this will ever actually matter. We wouldn't be even having this discussion if it weren't for Jordan's unfortunate death, the circumstances of which are rather unique.

This post has been edited by MTS: 18 March 2011 - 03:08 PM

[caladanbrood]

So in my trawl through the newly shiny updated book database at work, I checked out Dance with Dragons, and the RRP is £25!! I'm not sure I've ever seen a fiction book that expensive (apart from special editions obviously). Assuming half price offers will still apply, that still makes the discounted book pretty much the same price as something non-discounted like Moon Over Soho, which I am looking forward to much more, to be frank. This changes my outlook again - I might go for the paperback(s) instead.

[champ]

£25 is nothing short of a joke... but you can see it from the publishers point of view... The book been delayed for so long, when it is finally released the demand will be so high they can pretty much charge what they want...

[Abyss]

i'd be surprised if the price didn't come down via the usual 30-50% off sales before the street date.

[Cyphon]

£25 is taking the piss.

Also, GRRM in good health!? He's an oldish big guy, I can't quite believe that's good health.

[MTS]

champ, on 21 March 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

£25 is nothing short of a joke... but you can see it from the publishers point of view... The book been delayed for so long, when it is finally released the demand will be so high they can pretty much charge what they want...

£25 is a joke? Good lord, you don't know how good you have it. $40AUD for a new release hardcover - especially a high-demand one like ADWD - is pretty standard fare over here.

[QuickTidal]

I can't see them getting away with charging 25 pounds ($50 to use North Americans) for a hardcover....I just can't see that sticking.

[champ]

MTS, on 21 March 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

champ, on 21 March 2011 - 01:00 PM, said:

£25 is nothing short of a joke... but you can see it from the publishers point of view... The book been delayed for so long, when it is finally released the demand will be so high they can pretty much charge what they want...

£25 is a joke? Good lord, you don't know how good you have it. $40AUD for a new release hardcover - especially a high-demand one like ADWD - is pretty standard fare over here.

Ugh... When I had to buy SW for £20 with no shop offering discount I thought that was bad enough...

Normally find some new Hardcover releases that have tasty discounts applied, I got tCG for £9.99 as long as I pre-ordered it... Guess we don't realise how lucky we are then...

I'd pay £10-£15 for it no problem but I am not a great lover of GRRM, anymore than that and it will be downloaded...

[Slow Ben]

QuickTidal, on 21 March 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:

I can't see them getting away with charging 25 pounds ($50 to use North Americans) for a hardcover....I just can't see that sticking.

That'd change it for me. I'm looking forward to reading this, but if thats the price we're waiting for the used bookstore.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 21 March 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:

I can't see them getting away with charging 25 pounds ($50 to use North Americans) for a hardcover....I just can't see that sticking.

Tis close to what I'd pay here, I believe. Dust of Dreams in HC is € 33.99.

[MTS]

I dunno if I really care enough about ASOIAF to buy it new. I don't even own any of the others either, so would be rather pointless, really. I'll probably just wait and get it from the library sometime.

EDIT - on the book front, at least it's not as ridiculous as game costs. You know something's wrong when it's cheaper to import it from the US than to buy it locally.

This post has been edited by MTS: 21 March 2011 - 03:53 PM

[Werthead]

SONGS OF THE DYING EARTH was £25 as well. It appears to be a standard thing with Voyager that when a book hits a certain page-count the price rockets up. Combined with splitting the book in paperback, it's all a bit cheap really. They also publish Eddings, Hobb, Goodkind and Feist, so I assume they're not exactly strapped for cash.

However, when you look at the same shelves and can see THE CRIPPLED GOD, THE WISE MAN'S FEAR and THE WAY OF KINGS (which are all shorter, but not by that much) all for £20 in hardcover (well, not TWoK as that didn't have one, but it was still £18 in tradeback), it's a bit of a mickey-take, even assuming the book will likely be about £15 with discounts and pre-orders.

The only difference is if the book's page count is much higher than advertised. Somewhere around 1,100 pages in hardcover printers start pouring extra costs on. THE NAKED GOD (1,130 pages in hardcover) was £20 in 1999 at a time when the average hardcover cost was more like £14-£15.

[Tyr]

I would write for GRRM should he pass away before he finishes.

Bronn wins. The end.

[Abyss]

Tyr, on 21 March 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Bronn wins. Then Tyrion pays him off, marries Daenerys, and hires the Others as bartenders with built in ice machines. The end.

Fixed.

[caladanbrood]

Looks like the best discount we'll be getting is £10, on various websites. Waterstones often go to half price if you pre-order in-store on big books, but I've never seen one that expensive, so I don't know. Will let people know as soon as we do, because I'm guessing Amazon won't get any cheaper since no other sites are.

Incidentally, there is a hardback of Way of Kings, but it was mostly TPB, like you said Wert. The HB was almost exactly 1000 pages, and cost £20.

[Tyr]

Abyss, on 21 March 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

Tyr, on 21 March 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Bronn wins. Then Tyrion pays him off, marries Daenerys, and hires the Others as bartenders with built in ice machines. The end.

Fixed.

[Abyss]

Tyr, on 21 March 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 March 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

Tyr, on 21 March 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Bronn wins. Then Tyrion pays him off, marries Daenerys, and hires the Others as bartenders with built in ice machines. The end. Epilogue: Tyrion has wild crazy monkey sex with Daenyrys, Mellisandre, Cersei and Osha. All at the same time. Bronn stands by and passes him a moist towel and some mints.

Fixed.

Re-fixed.