[Skinner]

Overall I enjoyed the book but I guess I was looking forward to ......more. Its still a fine book by any standards, but I was hoping for something that would surpass DG and MOI and stand out as the greatest book of the entire series, by a landslide. Maybe its too early to call or judge but personally I can't say at this point that its my favourite book.

On my "fan-boy" wish list, it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. Quick Ben, Silchas, Draconus, Hood, Kilmandaros, Olar Ethil, Shadowthrone, Icarium, Dragons......someone to unleash that can labelled "whoopa$$". Especially given the stakes involved and that it was "end of the world", all or nothing convergence.

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. Tool, Kalam, the Assail, Karsa, Spinnock, Brys, Tulus Shorn, Cotillion or someone from above to have a "show down at high noon". Ok the Assail don't use weapons and they were usually "assasinated" rather than taken down a straight fight so just a bit disappointed there.

Although there are quite alot of good things too that I enjoyed (almost all of Hood's scenes, cameo by the Handmaid, Yedan's stand, brief return of QB & Kalam etc), I still felt that the payoff was short of my admittedly high expectations.

[Ceda Cicero]

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

Overall I enjoyed the book but I guess I was looking forward to ......more. Its still a fine book by any standards, but I was hoping for something that would surpass DG and MOI and stand out as the greatest book of the entire series, by a landslide. Maybe its too early to call or judge but personally I can't say at this point that its my favourite book.

On my "fan-boy" wish list, it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. Quick Ben, Silchas, Draconus, Hood, Kilmandaros, Olar Ethil, Shadowthrone, Icarium, Dragons......someone to unleash that can labelled "whoopa$". Especially given the stakes involved and that it was "end of the world", all or nothing convergence.

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. Tool, Kalam, the Assail, Karsa, Spinnock, Brys, Tulus Shorn, Cotillion or someone from above to have a "show down at high noon". Ok the Assail don't use weapons and they were usually "assasinated" rather than taken down a straight fight so just a bit disappointed there.

Although there are quite alot of good things too that I enjoyed (almost all of Hood's scenes, cameo by the Handmaid, Yedan's stand, brief return of QB & Kalam etc), I still felt that the payoff was short of my admittedly high expectations.

I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. There were definitely some spectacular QB/Kalam scenes that were satisfying in their own right since we haven't seen any since tBH, but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

[Abyss]

D, on 10 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

...Funny thing is, looks like Tavore had planned it quite well but was foiled by the Snake kids showing up and depleting their water prematurely. Without the Shake I think she could've done it before a ton of fights broke out over the water and people died.

Actually, i read that as she 'forced' the army on to the halfway mark despite the fact that they had the kids with them. It would have been agonizing even without the Snakeys.

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

..., it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. ...

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. ...

The series has really never been about the 'ho'd win'.

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

I'm with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

It did, but that was then, and watching QB go nuclear is like my Malazan crack. I'm never satisfied, and I'm always looking for a better high.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

I'm with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

Actually I think that the Names scenes was one of the most awesome scenes in the book and trumps any spectacular swordsmanship Brys is capable of.

Anyway, I liked this book, I really liked it. There were some very heartbreaking scenes, there were some awesome scenes and I liked the overall symmetry this book gave to the series. However, I don't know. I was sort of expecting more. Oh, well. I'm sure that once I do a re-read and I'm not expecting anything , I'll enjoy it more.

[Skinner]

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

D, on 10 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

...Funny thing is, looks like Tavore had planned it quite well but was foiled by the Snake kids showing up and depleting their water prematurely. Without the Shake I think she could've done it before a ton of fights broke out over the water and people died.

Actually, i read that as she 'forced' the army on to the halfway mark despite the fact that they had the kids with them. It would have been agonizing even without the Snakeys.

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

..., it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. ...

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. ...

The series has really never been about the 'ho'd win'.

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

I'm with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

Sure I realise Steve shouldn't pander to readership whims and throw in a "hollywood" fight scene just for the sake of it. But I'm saying that it would have really ended the series on a climatic high. And since there isn't one of these "nice haves" I feel the finale suffers a little on the "epic" scale. Because the bar was set so high early on in DG & MOI, I'm just greedy for more

Yes QB stepping up in DOD and it was an awesome scene, but technically it was in book #9 as you pointed out. So after that your QB quota is full for TCG? Even Icarium unleashed his sorcerous powers in DOD but I felt that no one really revealed their full magical strengh in TCG. Sinn & Silanah ran amok but no one (by design) was placed to challenge them on an even scale - so lost oppportunity for a epic scale confrontation. On the promising side, Paran's abilities were use to good effect, but again not quite fully tapped since he was used sparingly.

We've had some truly iconic and memorable fights in the "Malazan series" (excluding Ian's books) such as:
- QB & Kalam over Darujistan
- Blues v Lorn
- Tool v Mok
- Kallor v Whiskeyjack & 2 Marines
- Rulad v Bars, and Rulad v Brys
- Karsa v anything in his path
- Icarium v Trull
- Kalam v Claws
- Rake v Traveller
.....to name a few

Granted that in TCG, Yedan had a moment to shine but there were few other "on camera" scenes of individual combat prowess - except for the Handmaid. I guess I was looking forward to some god/ascendant/master swordperson getting down to the nitty gritty and that Yedan's scene was a teaser for what some coming next in the climax.........

On its owns merits TCG is a very good book. But within the Malazan series it stands among equals, not necessarily first among equals (yet). Who knows, maybe my opinion will change over time since I was so eager to finish rather than "savour" the final journey.

[tiam]

Skinner, on 12 March 2011 - 01:24 AM, said:

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

D, on 10 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

...Funny thing is, looks like Tavore had planned it quite well but was foiled by the Snake kids showing up and depleting their water prematurely. Without the Shake I think she could've done it before a ton of fights broke out over the water and people died.

Actually, i read that as she 'forced' the army on to the halfway mark despite the fact that they had the kids with them. It would have been agonizing even without the Snakeys.

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

..., it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. ...

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. ...

The series has really never been about the 'ho'd win'.

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

I'm with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

Sure I realise Steve shouldn't pander to readership whims and throw in a "hollywood" fight scene just for the sake of it. But I'm saying that it would have really ended the series on a climatic high. And since there isn't one of these "nice haves" I feel the finale suffers a little on the "epic" scale. Because the bar was set so high early on in DG & MOI, I'm just greedy for more

Yes QB stepping up in DOD and it was an awesome scene, but technically it was in book #9 as you pointed out. So after that your QB quota is full for TCG? Even Icarium unleashed his sorcerous powers in DOD but I felt that no one really revealed their full magical strengh in TCG. Sinn & Silanah ran amok but no one (by design) was placed to challenge them on an even scale - so lost oppportunity for a epic scale confrontation. On the promising side, Paran's abilities were use to good effect, but again not quite fully tapped since he was used sparingly.

We've had some truly iconic and memorable fights in the "Malazan series" (excluding Ian's books) such as:
- QB & Kalam over Darujistan
- Blues v Lorn
- Tool v Mok
- Kallor v Whiskeyjack & 2 Marines
- Rulad v Bars, and Rulad v Brys
- Karsa v anything in his path
- Icarium v Trull
- Kalam v Claws
- Rake v Traveller
.....to name a few

Granted that in TCG, Yedan had a moment to shine but there were few other "on camera" scenes of individual combat prowess - except for the Handmaid. I guess I was looking forward to some god/ascendant/master swordperson getting down to the nitty gritty and that Yedan's scene was a teaser for what some coming next in the climax.........

On its owns merits TCG is a very good book. But within the Malazan series it stands among equals, not necessarily first among equals (yet). Who knows, maybe my opinion will change over time since I was so eager to finish rather than "savour" the final journey.

Like you said SE isnt one to pander to his fans with contrived hollywood fight scenes but I agree that there could have been more of an end. i guess that was the point though. Everyone expected Icarium this and tragedy that when what we got was a solid finale and a happy ending. It was the best way to keep us all guessing. Ill never forgive him for bringing Hetan back though.

I thinjk the ending DOD would be difficult to top for sheer scale. Moon Spawn clipping Coral in MOI was better but we still got a solid over blown convergence at the end of TCG.

[Ulrik]

But you had epic duel...Hood vs. Equity. Yeah, it was quick, but that was Dassem vs. Rake duel too... (and I can add Yedan vs. dragons:))

[Sinisdar Toste]

tiam, on 12 March 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

Like you said SE isnt one to pander to his fans with contrived hollywood fight scenes but I agree that there could have been more of an end. i guess that was the point though. Everyone expected Icarium this and tragedy that when what we got was a solid finale and a happy ending. It was the best way to keep us all guessing. Ill never forgive him for bringing Hetan back though.

I thinjk the ending DOD would be difficult to top for sheer scale. Moon Spawn clipping Coral in MOI was better but we still got a solid over blown convergence at the end of TCG.

see, i agree. we did get a massive, balls-to-the-wall convergence in tCG. i don't see how anybody could be dissapointed, when it was raining fucking dragons!

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 12 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

It was also raining pigs blood, and Olar Ethil went all Carrie on everybody.

[Luzburg]

HoosierDaddy, on 12 March 2011 - 09:28 PM, said:

It was also raining pigs blood, and Olar Ethil went all Carrie on everybody.

I don't get that reference. Please enlighten me and save me googling it. (I know, if laziness had an ascendant I'd be it.)


Jaghut and mortal lmass fighting side by side. That blows everything out of the water.

[Illuyankas]

I think he meant Sinn, as she had the batshit pyromaniac teenager thing going on a lot better than Olar did, Tellann aside.

[worry]

Nah, he meant Carrie as in Carrie Bradshaw, Sarah Jessica Parker's role on Sex and the City. She is as a double undead twin to Olar Ethil.

[Ceda Cicero]

Nonono, surely he meant Carrie Fisher, her progression from playing Leia to alcoholism to obesity to stand-up comedy, etc, etc. The parallels are unmistakable really.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 13 March 2011 - 08:23 PM

[Abyss]

Stephen King's Carrie, poster child for teenage girl angst with psychic power consequences.

...y'know, the Sinn analogy isn't far off...

[Gatekeeper]

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 05:16 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

It did, but that was then, and watching QB go nuclear is like my Malazan crack. I'm never satisfied, and I'm always looking for a better high.

Funniest "QB-related" humor I've read in some time...repped

[Gatekeeper]

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

D, on 10 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

...Funny thing is, looks like Tavore had planned it quite well but was foiled by the Snake kids showing up and depleting their water prematurely. Without the Shake I think she could've done it before a ton of fights broke out over the water and people died.

Actually, i read that as she 'forced' the army on to the halfway mark despite the fact that they had the kids with them. It would have been agonizing even without the Snakeys.

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

..., it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. ...

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. ...

series has really never been about the 'ho'd win'.

Still would have been cool to see, but I got my fill when the Dynamic Duo went old school Claw on the Pures. Though I was a little confused when Kalam smoked the first Pure with stabby to both hearts, but was surprised the next time he fought a Pure.

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

That was the best QB scene for me, and I thought it was a due tipping of the hat. I also liked SE telling all us geeks to shut up about how mysterious QB is, WITH QUICK BEN DELIVERING THE MESSAGE. Classic Malazan Moment.

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

Agreed. To much smooching in the corner, not enough stabby stabby.

[Gatekeeper]

Skinner, on 12 March 2011 - 01:24 AM, said:

Abyss, on 11 March 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

D, on 10 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

...Funny thing is, looks like Tavore had planned it quite well but was foiled by the Snake kids showing up and depleting their water prematurely. Without the Shake I think she could've done it before a ton of fights broke out over the water and people died.

Actually, i read that as she 'forced' the army on to the halfway mark despite the fact that they had the kids with them. It would have been agonizing even without the Snakeys.

Skinner, on 11 March 2011 - 01:50 AM, said:

..., it would have been nice to have:
a ) one or two major magical battles. ...

b ) one-on-one master sword fight. ...

The series has really never been about the 'ho'd win'.

Cicero, on 11 March 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

...I was really hoping for a QB scene that would trump all other QB scenes. ... but I'm talking the QB going NUCLEAR scenes.

QB taking out entire legions of Nah'ruk by himself back in DoD didn't do it for you?

Quote

And I wanted to see Brys unleash with the sword one more time. Insofar as his skill with the sword was a huge part of his character in MT, we didn't see him in action much. Still, respect for the fact that there are consistent mentions about his mastery of the sword being indicative of his character from other folks.

I'm with you on this one. It would have been neat to see Brys go up against, say, an FA before he unloaded the Names on him. But I did like how other characters associated his mastery with his personality.

Sure I realise Steve shouldn't pander to readership whims and throw in a "hollywood" fight scene just for the sake of it. But I'm saying that it would have really ended the series on a climatic high. And since there isn't one of these "nice haves" I feel the finale suffers a little on the "epic" scale. Because the bar was set so high early on in DG & MOI, I'm just greedy for more

Yes QB stepping up in DOD and it was an awesome scene, but technically it was in book #9 as you pointed out. So after that your QB quota is full for TCG? Even Icarium unleashed his sorcerous powers in DOD but I felt that no one really revealed their full magical strengh in TCG. Sinn & Silanah ran amok but no one (by design) was placed to challenge them on an even scale - so lost oppportunity for a epic scale confrontation. On the promising side, Paran's abilities were use to good effect, but again not quite fully tapped since he was used sparingly.

We've had some truly iconic and memorable fights in the "Malazan series" (excluding Ian's books) such as:
- QB & Kalam over Darujistan
- Blues v Lorn
- Tool v Mok
- Kallor v Whiskeyjack & 2 Marines
- Rulad v Bars, and Rulad v Brys
- Karsa v anything in his path
- Icarium v Trull
- Kalam v Claws
- Rake v Traveller
.....to name a few

Granted that in TCG, Yedan had a moment to shine but there were few other "on camera" scenes of individual combat prowess - except for the Handmaid. I guess I was looking forward to some god/ascendant/master swordperson getting down to the nitty gritty and that Yedan's scene was a teaser for what some coming next in the climax.........

On its owns merits TCG is a very good book. But within the Malazan series it stands among equals, not necessarily first among equals (yet). Who knows, maybe my opinion will change over time since I was so eager to finish rather than "savour" the final journey.

- Kallor v Whiskeyjack & 2 Marines


I always thought this fight was the best.

[theimmaterial]

spiralx, on 05 March 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 05 March 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

Dunno man, I dont want to sound offensive, but... how could you say that, when key leitmotif of TCG are those little, unwitnessed people? I feel their importance underlined in every page - without them Tavore would fail. For me, TCG was exactly about those "tiny" heroes like Shorthand, Pithy, Brevity, regulars...

For me is epic moment when Urb says Hellian that he loves her, Skulldeath falls, Brevity find new best friend, Gruntle dies unwitnessed without changing anything...and so on and so on.

I dare to oppose you!

For myself personally I wasn't referring to the Bonehunters themselves when I said "minor characters", their story is the core of the series after all, and all the scenes you mention were ones I loved. But I just didn't really care much for say, who was sleeping with who in the Khundryl, or the the Trygalle lot bickering endlessly. Especially when, as miriya said, there was a lot of inner monologue that for me at times seemed less like the thoughts of an actual person, and more like the contents of a writing class exercise like "have a character contemplate the nature of futility". That works for some of the characters - Ascendents, gods and the like - but not for the wife of the chief of a clan of horse nomads.

After having thought about it for a bit I guess I feel it was all a bit anti-climatic, not so much because there were loose threads at the end, but because the final goal, the freeing of the CG, is something we only find out about in this book, and it's in direct opposition to how things seem in the earlier books, with their tighter focus and more emotional punch (IMO). While SE is as good as ever as making you feel emotionally invested in the outcome, I just didn't feel it was enough to close a 10 book series I've spent the last 12 years or so reading.

This is pretty much how I feel. I could have done without the Khundryl docu-soap, the Perish (my god they were dull), the trygalle (forgotten they even featured), the shake (should have been a novella), the liosan (no reason for them to be included except for the shake), nimander and co (should have been in the novella with the shake).

What I could have done with more of: bonehunters x100 - too many of their battles, encounters, general suffering got relegated to a truncated telling 'yeah and this happened, and this person died and it was really tough', the host (I mean that siege was going on for ages and again we only ever get told about it in retrospect) and the whole silchas ruin/hound master/3 dragons of shadow got like 4 lines between them right at the end, even Draconus taking out Killy and Knuckles got like half a page!

I suppose my gripe is why do minor, fringe, brand new characters get all the face time and pathos and emotive writing and those you actually care about get some bullet points in between? The immersion of the previous series wasn't there (or it was but for the wrong people). The cast I'd come to know and love read more like a shopping list of woes rather than an immersive, shared suffering, heart rending, cant-read-because-of-the-tears climatic finale.

Still a good book but still disappointed.

[worry]

You're projecting when you say "those you actually care about". Every character you cared about was a new character to you at some point, and their lives didn't become more important than everyone else's just because we got to know them a bit better. Every single soldier in those armies had a story to tell.