[Imperial High Mage]

I'd count myself in the "slightly happy with reservations" category. The ending just lacked that signature SE moment. So many open avenues to make somebody, anybody, do something that made you go "no way". It all just seemed so standard. He deftly navigated us through the maze, but when we got to the end, it wasn't that exciting. Don't tell me he didn't have the taste for the "wow" moments because every single book had them but TCG. I just expected my head to blow up and nothing happened. He took the cusser out of the bag, loaded it onto the crossbow, aimed it at his adoring fans, and it just fell at our feet with a thud. I want to defend this book because 1-9 were so damn fun, so I will enjoy it as much as I can, but I still wonder "what if".

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage: 14 March 2011 - 07:23 PM

[spiralx]

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

You're projecting when you say "those you actually care about".

Expressing an opinion surely? Projecting what?

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Every character you cared about was a new character to you at some point, and their lives didn't become more important than everyone else's just because we got to know them a bit better.

That's a total red herring; yes, every character is new at some point, but that doesn't mean that you're going to end up liking them all equally or even at all. Just introducing a new character doesn't imply you should like them. And come on, of course getting to know a character better means that (assuming you like them and how they're written!) you'll view them as being more important to you. Can you really say you care as much about the Perish as the Bridgeburners?

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Every single soldier in those armies had a story to tell.

Yes, but thankfully good authors manage to capture the story of large numbers of people by using a small number of key characters to provide differing perspectives and show different events that combine to tell a story, and don't give equal importance to every last marine, foot soldier, heavy and horseman in the army and cover everything from each one of their viewpoints.

[Abyss]

Imperial High Mage, on 14 March 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'd count myself in the "slightly happy with reservations" category. The ending just lacked that signature SE moment. So many open avenues to make somebody, anybody, do something that made you go "no way". It all just seemed so standard. ...nothing happened. ...

Which part wasn't epic holy fuck enough...?

Korabas fighting like every dragon in the world while bearing down on the marines?
Tiam showing up?
Heboric breaking the chains and the CG using those chains to bind Korabas?
Cotillion stabbifying the CG in the back?
Tavore and co CHARGING THE KOLANSII ARMY???
QB nuking the Kolnasii?
Kalam stabbystabbing the last FA in the hearts?

On a thin margin i might say Moon's Spawn bursting out of the frozen waterfall back in MoI beat all of these for epic, and The Fall for sheer emotional trauma, but that's about it.


- Abyss, notes that Urb and Hellian's make out session on top of Clasp was DAMN EPIC!!!

[Imperial High Mage]

Abyss, on 14 March 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

Imperial High Mage, on 14 March 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'd count myself in the "slightly happy with reservations" category. The ending just lacked that signature SE moment. So many open avenues to make somebody, anybody, do something that made you go "no way". It all just seemed so standard. ...nothing happened. ...

Which part wasn't epic holy fuck enough...?

Korabas fighting like every dragon in the world while bearing down on the marines?
Tiam showing up?
Heboric breaking the chains and the CG using those chains to bind Korabas?
Cotillion stabbifying the CG in the back?
Tavore and co CHARGING THE KOLANSII ARMY???
QB nuking the Kolnasii?
Kalam stabbystabbing the last FA in the hearts?

On a thin margin i might say Moon's Spawn bursting out of the frozen waterfall back in MoI beat all of these for epic, and The Fall for sheer emotional trauma, but that's about it.


- Abyss, notes that Urb and Hellian's make out session on top of Clasp was DAMN EPIC!!!

I get that some people will defend SE to the bitter end, but he telegraphed every single one of the things that you mentioned. The Fokrul Assail, for all of how ridiculously badass they were, managed to kill not a single person of importance outside of some minor Bonehunters. Cotillion and Shadowthrone really did nothing but orchestrate some of the armies being there? What was the importance of them and the Azath houses? For how ridiculously badass Cot and ST are, they really did nothing but kill a weakened CG that any single person there could have slain and move some armies around. So for all that alluding to ST and Cot's master plan, it was nothing more than moving some stinking armies into position to battle the Assail? And without the mysterious appearances of the other 3 elder races coming to help out, it wouldn't have been even close to enough. Sorry, very crappy, not very surprising, unrevealing ending for two gods apparently in control of everything.

On that note, where was Draconus? He kills Kili and just disappears for the rest of the damn book. What was the point of it? Draconus reappeared out of Dragnipur for nothing. His whole storyline meant nothing. Did it even look like anyone could have challenged him 1v1 that was left? SE certainly made it appear that they couldn't. So the most badass character left in the universe had no say in how it all went down, even after Draconus alluding to him having his say.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Draconus was going to have his say(probably on the OD business) but ST convinced him to stay out og it.

[Obdigore]

Quote

I get that some people will defend SE to the bitter end, but he telegraphed every single one of the things that you mentioned. The Fokrul Assail, for all of how ridiculously badass they were, managed to kill not a single person of importance outside of some minor Bonehunters. Cotillion and Shadowthrone really did nothing but orchestrate some of the armies being there? What was the importance of them and the Azath houses? For how ridiculously badass Cot and ST are, they really did nothing but kill a weakened CG that any single person there could have slain and move some armies around. So for all that alluding to ST and Cot's master plan, it was nothing more than moving some stinking armies into position to battle the Assail? And without the mysterious appearances of the other 3 elder races coming to help out, it wouldn't have been even close to enough. Sorry, very crappy, not very surprising, unrevealing ending for two gods apparently in control of everything.

On that note, where was Draconus? He kills Kili and just disappears for the rest of the damn book. What was the point of it? Draconus reappeared out of Dragnipur for nothing. His whole storyline meant nothing. Did it even look like anyone could have challenged him 1v1 that was left? SE certainly made it appear that they couldn't. So the most badass character left in the universe had no say in how it all went down, even after Draconus alluding to him having his say.

I get that some people will whine to the bitter end, but he didn't telegraph everything at all.

Did you honestly expect ST to talk Draconus out of intervening because that might have woken Iccy which would have shattered the world? I called it!

Have you not grasped the bigger picture that this entire plan has been orchestrated by Rake and others, who seemingly brought ST and Cot into their confidence because they saw what they could be, and that these two would be able to bring everything through to fruitition while dealing with the unexpected along the way? Totally Expected!

Have you realized that this book is written on our world by the crippled god returned to us after his adventures on another world? Totaly Lame!

The forkrul who were all damaged in some way and were not, technically, ascended at all required either 7 undead and extremely hard to kill warriors (with help from someone holding his guts in), had their face eaten off by one of the most powerful beings to ever exist, or completely destroyed someone on the verge of ascending and still had to get a god involved to put them down. But no, they are 'weak and lame', right?

And let me guess, you totally knew that Trull was going to die just as he reached Iccy, and that Hetan was going to come back to life, and that Heboric Chain-Hands was going to say hello to the Otat Dragon, and all the other stuff that you didn't mention but like to imply. I could continue, such as discussing the fact that there is no way you 'knew' ahead of time that Tiam was some sort of d'ivers-cum-soletaken motherbeastthing. Oh and the 'she' betraying the grey wolves ends up being one of the goddesses?

Come on. Just start thinking about all the things that happened in this book, every single small thing leading up to all the big ones.

I don't disagree that the liosan/shake thing seemed unimportant to the story... perhaps if the liosan ended up marching upon the Assailians at the end? There were some side stuff and some stuff that seems unimportant, but that is as it has been in every book.

This is the last of this 'cycle', but not the last malazan book. Could some of this, Like the Andii returning home and the Liosan being nigh ended, still be setting up for future stories/novels/tie-ins with ICE?

Edit: Fixing quote markers.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 14 March 2011 - 08:55 PM

[Abyss]

Imperial High Mage, on 14 March 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

... he telegraphed every single one of the things that you mentioned. ...

If by 'telegraphed' you mean 'events logically followed developments in the story' then yes.

[worry]

spiralx, on 14 March 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

You're projecting when you say "those you actually care about".

Expressing an opinion surely? Projecting what?

When you use the second person, you are talking about a person not yourself, usually the one(s) you're addressing. This idea that there were people the generic "you" should have cared about is entirely your own, and you're projecting it. Even in your response to the rest of my post you keep using "you" like it means something. Nothing you felt, at all, ever, during the course of your reading the series should you ascribe to anybody else. The implied advocacy for The Reader and How He Feels "Of Course" is simply projecting. Your opinion is your own, and needs no justification, but it's not a set of truisms. I like the Perish as much as the Bridgeburners. I like Setoc as much as I like Toc. I like Kalyth as much as Ges and Stormy.

Authors do a lot of different things in a lot of different ways, all of them potentially good.

[shadowchair]

Constantly read the forums, never posted, but after finishing the series couldnt resist. All is completely imo and I dont want to persuade anybody that they should hold to my pov.
DG and MoI just grabbed and wont go, you get a feeling that the world is about to open to you and every word in it is worthwhile. The action was pretty concentrated, the book had a start and a finish (sort of, because of course it is perfectly normal that there is no "and they lived happy ever since..."). Then the world began to grow more and more and more until only people who are really devoted to the series could understand what is going on. I had to really struggle through the last book, remembering all the plot, subplots, plot twists, hidden secrets each and every character posses. So in the end I had to come read the board to fully understand what is going on. I dont think this counts as a plus point for the book. In this sense I like Esselmont's novels more they feel like books you can read and not take multiple references through 13 tomes all the time.
Now you could say that Erikson isnt my author, but I think the mere fact that I read all the books counts for something. Even now I often reread books DG, MoI and MT. But almost never the rest of the books.
The other thing I never liked much was the seeming ease with which "minor" characters take on the big characters and kill them. Ok, the malazan marines are something, we know that. They can kill anything. Simple guys with explosives can kill anything. I think even Mother Dark wont stand a chance against them - elemental powers, which have been around forever are falling like autumn leaves, even elder gods... Ok, they are gods as well, but it still doesnt feel this way. I think the message Erikson constantly tries to put through is that no god should mess with humans. Or here comes Fiddler or Hedge or Calam with his super daggers. Viola, the god is down.
Anyway for those who feel offended by my post I am sorry, just couldnt hold myself back when I read this topic:) I still think I will keep reading the novels, but I hope they will be more MoI/DG type.

[Sinisdar Toste]

shadowchair, on 14 March 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:

Constantly read the forums, never posted, but after finishing the series couldnt resist. All is completely imo and I dont want to persuade anybody that they should hold to my pov.
DG and MoI just grabbed and wont go, you get a feeling that the world is about to open to you and every word in it is worthwhile. The action was pretty concentrated, the book had a start and a finish (sort of, because of course it is perfectly normal that there is no "and they lived happy ever since..."). Then the world began to grow more and more and more until only people who are really devoted to the series could understand what is going on. I had to really struggle through the last book, remembering all the plot, subplots, plot twists, hidden secrets each and every character posses. So in the end I had to come read the board to fully understand what is going on. I dont think this counts as a plus point for the book. In this sense I like Esselmont's novels more they feel like books you can read and not take multiple references through 13 tomes all the time.
Now you could say that Erikson isnt my author, but I think the mere fact that I read all the books counts for something. Even now I often reread books DG, MoI and MT. But almost never the rest of the books.
The other thing I never liked much was the seeming ease with which "minor" characters take on the big characters and kill them. Ok, the malazan marines are something, we know that. They can kill anything. Simple guys with explosives can kill anything. I think even Mother Dark wont stand a chance against them - elemental powers, which have been around forever are falling like autumn leaves, even elder gods... Ok, they are gods as well, but it still doesnt feel this way. I think the message Erikson constantly tries to put through is that no god should mess with humans. Or here comes Fiddler or Hedge or Calam with his super daggers. Viola, the god is down.
Anyway for those who feel offended by my post I am sorry, just couldnt hold myself back when I read this topic:) I still think I will keep reading the novels, but I hope they will be more MoI/DG type.

welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing, but i think you overestimate the offensiveness of your opinion, when it is stated so politely.

[worry]

I have a feeling the books you haven't re-read would actually improve in your mind if you gave them another chance. What you might have found fault with before, could reveal itself to be something important or at least pretty neat detailing. I'd suggest...down the line some time if not any time soon...you do a full re-read of the whole series, no interruptions.

[spiralx]

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

spiralx, on 14 March 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

You're projecting when you say "those you actually care about".

Expressing an opinion surely? Projecting what?

When you use the second person, you are talking about a person not yourself, usually the one(s) you're addressing. This idea that there were people the generic "you" should have cared about is entirely your own, and you're projecting it. Even in your response to the rest of my post you keep using "you" like it means something. Nothing you felt, at all, ever, during the course of your reading the series should you ascribe to anybody else. The implied advocacy for The Reader and How He Feels "Of Course" is simply projecting. Your opinion is your own, and needs no justification, but it's not a set of truisms. I like the Perish as much as the Bridgeburners. I like Setoc as much as I like Toc. I like Kalyth as much as Ges and Stormy.

Authors do a lot of different things in a lot of different ways, all of them potentially good.

That's a very strange way to interpret the word you in the context of a forum post, where "you" is understood to be taken as the indefinite you unless directly replying to someone, and the post you took the phrase "those you actually care about" wasn't a direct reply to anyone.

Or is it just that you are taking umbrage with the idea that people care differently about different characters? While I suppose it is technically possible that someone could like every single character equally (if you assume you can reduce such things to a one-dimensional quantity), it seems unlikely that it would actually ever be true, and would represent a failure of authorial intent and quite frankly human nature. Unless of course, you don't like any of the characters, in which case yes, you would "like" them equally.

I don't have any opinions on what other people should like or dislike, that's personal preference, and you'll notice I've not said anything other than my feelings in my posts. But given that we're all here fans enough of MBotF to have read all ten books, and the endless discussions of which character is better than the other, who didn't get enough time in the book, and the like, I don't think I'm making an unwarranted assumption that people like some characters more than others!

Answer me this - did you find the death of Sweetest Sufferance to be as equally moving a moment as the death of Whiskeyjack?

[D'rek]

Summary of thread:

"This thing that happened in the 10th book was so unexpected and has ruined the series, but when it happened in the first 9 books it was amazing and I loved it. The 10th book should be more like the previous ones."

[spiralx]

D, on 15 March 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

Summary of thread:

"This thing that happened in the 10th book was so unexpected and has ruined the series, but when it happened in the first 9 books it was amazing and I loved it. The 10th book should be more like the previous ones."

Wow, it's amazing how you've taken all of the different opinions here and synthesised them into this gem. It really would have been less snarky just to post "you don't get it" instead.

[Ulrik]

spiralx, on 15 March 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

spiralx, on 14 March 2011 - 07:49 PM, said:

worrywort, on 14 March 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

You're projecting when you say "those you actually care about".

Expressing an opinion surely? Projecting what?

When you use the second person, you are talking about a person not yourself, usually the one(s) you're addressing. This idea that there were people the generic "you" should have cared about is entirely your own, and you're projecting it. Even in your response to the rest of my post you keep using "you" like it means something. Nothing you felt, at all, ever, during the course of your reading the series should you ascribe to anybody else. The implied advocacy for The Reader and How He Feels "Of Course" is simply projecting. Your opinion is your own, and needs no justification, but it's not a set of truisms. I like the Perish as much as the Bridgeburners. I like Setoc as much as I like Toc. I like Kalyth as much as Ges and Stormy.

Authors do a lot of different things in a lot of different ways, all of them potentially good.

Answer me this - did you find the death of Sweetest Sufferance to be as equally moving a moment as the death of Whiskeyjack?

Well, Worrywont doesnt ned my explanations, but I think, that if you read his post carefully...you´ll see this demand of answer pretty..."not wise". He didnt say he loves all of them equally, he just said, that for him, story arcs you see as unnecesary meant same as first grade mainstream fantasy fan characters.


And I agree with him. I have no understanding for those who see Khundryl, Shake, Snake or even DoD Barghast as useless (but I wont force them to like it - its their way). I found death of Murillio much more moving than WJ. Barghast damnation story arc was stronger than e.g. conquering of Lether by BH. And most importantly - those non-ascendant, non-key soldiers and their lives was key for me in loving SE´s work. Without mere soldiers, dying by accident, loose arrow, betrayal, DoD and TCG would be halved for me. I care for them more, than for specacular clashes of dragons, Im not excited by duel of Draconus with Killy (because they were unimportant in this phase...too old). For me, MBoF is story of all Barghast, soldiers, common letherii etc. Yeah, I like duels, QB sweeping Nahruk, but...thats standard fantasy stuff, just brilliantly described. But core of the series are those unwitnessed individuals. And who isnt moved by cruel scene Badalle recognizing toys... This is for my why is MBoF exceptional. Its spine isnt juggling with magic swords and dragons. Its spine is human suffering, strenght and courage. Achilleus wasnt hero with his damned invincibility. It was soldiers facing him.

[worry]

Let me put it this way. The first and second sentences in this paragraph are projecting, while the third one is a fair opinion.

theimmaterial, on 14 March 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

I suppose my gripe is why do minor, fringe, brand new characters get all the face time and pathos and emotive writing and those you actually care about get some bullet points in between? The immersion of the previous series wasn't there (or it was but for the wrong people). The cast I'd come to know and love read more like a shopping list of woes rather than an immersive, shared suffering, heart rending, cant-read-because-of-the-tears climatic finale.

"Minor" "fringe" "those you care about" and "the wrong people" I do take umbrage with, when the implication is that they represent the universal response. As far as the opinion they represent, I would suggest they miss the point entirely, which is my counteropinion -- both sides valid enough. It's the presumption of shared experience -- a different issue -- that galls. I liked Sweetest Sufferance plenty, and even if I didn't, being ripped apart from the inside by a giant hand gave me a visceral response -- different from mine to WJ's death? certainly. Equal? Impossible to say -- but I got them both, the former didn't eliminate the latter. Both events happened and I reacted to both in ways that I appreciated. If someone else didn't, fine, but the indefinite you is projecting, inherently so. It's faux-camaraderie to bolster a single opinion. I don't know if all this is coming off too much like griping, but I'd consider the issue intimately linked to the books, since they're very much about how differences in perspective -- and their obfuscation in lies, secrets, or presumptions -- have unexpected consequences. I dunno, I think it's interesting.

[spiralx]

worrywort, on 15 March 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Let me put it this way. The first and second sentences in this paragraph are projecting, while the third one is a fair opinion.

theimmaterial, on 14 March 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

I suppose my gripe is why do minor, fringe, brand new characters get all the face time and pathos and emotive writing and those you actually care about get some bullet points in between? The immersion of the previous series wasn't there (or it was but for the wrong people). The cast I'd come to know and love read more like a shopping list of woes rather than an immersive, shared suffering, heart rending, cant-read-because-of-the-tears climatic finale.

"Minor" "fringe" "those you care about" and "the wrong people" I do take umbrage with, when the implication is that they represent the universal response. As far as the opinion they represent, I would suggest they miss the point entirely, which is my counteropinion -- both sides valid enough. It's the presumption of shared experience -- a different issue -- that galls. I liked Sweetest Sufferance plenty, and even if I didn't, being ripped apart from the inside by a giant hand gave me a visceral response -- different from mine to WJ's death? certainly. Equal? Impossible to say -- but I got them both, the former didn't eliminate the latter. Both events happened and I reacted to both in ways that I appreciated. If someone else didn't, fine, but the indefinite you is projecting, inherently so. It's faux-camaraderie to bolster a single opinion. I don't know if all this is coming off too much like griping, but I'd consider the issue intimately linked to the books, since they're very much about how differences in perspective -- and their obfuscation in lies, secrets, or presumptions -- have unexpected consequences. I dunno, I think it's interesting.

*shrug* I think you're just taking it a little too personally. His use of you can be understood to mean "those of you who agree" rather than implying that his opinion ought to be shared by everyone - something his post explicitly denied in fact.

My last point wasn't meant to imply how you (the indefinite you ) should value the death of SS ws. WJ; merely that different characters do emotionally resonant with readers differently, and the poster you criticised for projecting was simply expressing his view on that.

[spiralx]

Ulrik, on 15 March 2011 - 01:34 AM, said:

And I agree with him. I have no understanding for those who see Khundryl, Shake, Snake or even DoD Barghast as useless (but I wont force them to like it - its their way). I found death of Murillio much more moving than WJ. Barghast damnation story arc was stronger than e.g. conquering of Lether by BH. And most importantly - those non-ascendant, non-key soldiers and their lives was key for me in loving SE´s work. Without mere soldiers, dying by accident, loose arrow, betrayal, DoD and TCG would be halved for me. I care for them more, than for specacular clashes of dragons, Im not excited by duel of Draconus with Killy (because they were unimportant in this phase...too old). For me, MBoF is story of all Barghast, soldiers, common letherii etc. Yeah, I like duels, QB sweeping Nahruk, but...thats standard fantasy stuff, just brilliantly described. But core of the series are those unwitnessed individuals. And who isnt moved by cruel scene Badalle recognizing toys... This is for my why is MBoF exceptional. Its spine isnt juggling with magic swords and dragons. Its spine is human suffering, strenght and courage. Achilleus wasnt hero with his damned invincibility. It was soldiers facing him.

For me personally it is the way the books juggle the epic and the mundane so well; I love the clash of Ascendants and Elder Races and I also love the struggles of the BH, the Chain of Dogs, Stonny and Gruntle, the Grey Swords and so on. That doesn't mean that there wasn't characters I didn't find myself interested in though.

This is a general question because I really am curious... what do people think was the point of the Shake/Liosan storyline in terms of the overall story arc? Was there one? Everything else seemed to fit somewhere, but as far as I saw it, other than the restoration of MD it didn't connect to the rest of the story - it seems plausible that it will be revisited in later books, but then that's an awful lot of story that serves mostly as a hook for another series.

[Abyss]

spiralx, on 15 March 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:

...This is a general question because I really am curious... what do people think was the point of the Shake/Liosan storyline in terms of the overall story arc? Was there one? Everything else seemed to fit somewhere, but as far as I saw it, other than the restoration of MD it didn't connect to the rest of the story - it seems plausible that it will be revisited in later books, but then that's an awful lot of story that serves mostly as a hook for another series.

I come and go with this. The Andii/MD/Dragnipur/Chaos storyline actually runs right through the books, starting with Rake back in GotM and for the most part culminating in TtH. That was an important storyline running parallel with the Crippled God/Bridgeburners/Bonehunters story, and it deserved a big finish, which it got in TtH. The Shake... well, their story runs through the Letherii Empire story, and Nimander & co. In DoD it steps up to becoming a major point of the books ending at Lightfall in TCG. It also provides a LOT of backstory to the Andii/MD elements, but remains completely separate from the CG story. Cotillion does mention at one point in TCG that the war is being fought on many fronts, and i suspect the Shake stopping the Liosan radicals from taking over KG and moving on from there is an important part of the overall 'war against the bad guys' theme, albeit a bit sideways.

I suppose it comes down to this...

Could we have done without the Shake entirely? Probably.

Did I enjoy it anyways? Yes.

[Bulwyf]

Heh, I was a little nervous seeing this thread title on the main page before getting to read for myself. ...but after reading it I thought it was great.

(how could you not know Sinn was a psycho by now, even if you only read this one book?!)

Awesome conclusion to an awesome series!