[Sinisdar Toste]

theimmaterial, on 01 March 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:

since i'm too lazy to actually write out why i think you're wrong, just consider this flak my disagreement with your opinion.

Disagreement without substance, isn't disagreement at all =D

making it what? disappeargreement?

[Dancer+]

I'm sorry to hear that you did not enjoy the Crippled God, I appreciate that you've made your thoughts known.

However something like this is always going to be a personal preference, I thought the Crippled God was fantastic and felt it tied up a lot. But then again I'm not someone who needs infinite closure with things in life, it's always nice to have more questions and more possibilities. I think it's clear that a lot of these things will be tied up in subsequent books of which there are over ten at least (SE and ICE combined).

Most of your complaints seem to be based on character X not being mentioned or not getting a definitive ending, that was never the intention of Erikson's and one which has been clear from the beginning. I'm just surprised that someone who liked the other books as much as they have finds this such a disappointment. I wonder if you will come around after another re-read or if further books come out. Everything you hated about the book can be tackled in the future, ICE is writing an epilogue to this book to tie up some of the other issues which were out of scope. We know this is the end of the book of the fallen (i.e. the story of the Crippled God) but there was never meant to be infinite closure for other continents.

Anyway, all the best and I hope I see you around again in the future.

[theimmaterial]

Dancer+, on 02 March 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I'm sorry to hear that you did not enjoy the Crippled God, I appreciate that you've made your thoughts known.

However something like this is always going to be a personal preference, I thought the Crippled God was fantastic and felt it tied up a lot. But then again I'm not someone who needs infinite closure with things in life, it's always nice to have more questions and more possibilities. I think it's clear that a lot of these things will be tied up in subsequent books of which there are over ten at least (SE and ICE combined).

Most of your complaints seem to be based on character X not being mentioned or not getting a definitive ending, that was never the intention of Erikson's and one which has been clear from the beginning. I'm just surprised that someone who liked the other books as much as they have finds this such a disappointment. I wonder if you will come around after another re-read or if further books come out. Everything you hated about the book can be tackled in the future, ICE is writing an epilogue to this book to tie up some of the other issues which were out of scope. We know this is the end of the book of the fallen (i.e. the story of the Crippled God) but there was never meant to be infinite closure for other continents.

Anyway, all the best and I hope I see you around again in the future.

I enjoyed it as 'another Malazan book' and would put it up there with Dust of Dreams as a comparsion. However as a wrapping it all up, end of an era I think it was anticliamtic. ICE will cover a lot of the characters but it still felt at times that Erikson was actually hampered in his attempts to wrap up what he did because he'd overloaded the arc with too many other issues. The Shake for instance came very late to the game and the whole last shore defence didn't really add anything/wasn't integral to the main story arc. It was an interesting addition loosely sewn in with Nimander at the end and an epic battle in the meantime but i feel the whole Shake thing could have been left out of the series and it wouldn't have lacked anything for it.

As it is they took up a lot of space and I felt in a lot of the Bonehunter scenes I felt got compressed, I didn't really feel any of the tragedy of it all. It seemed a lot more being told than being shown, I was made aware of deaths, suffering, etc. but wasn't given time to take it in.

It's been awhile so you'll have to forgive me if I get these books wrong but it seems the Bolkando, the Shake and the Perish only showed really showed up in Dust of Dreams (as in we first start to get detailed character assessments and POVs) and considering DoD was essentially the first half of tCG it seems a bit late to introduce new players particularly if it means skimping on more established threads.

I guess if I had to summarise my feelings it would be: good book but failed as a finale (but ICE may take care of this) and too much time given to newer/minor/less developed characters/stroy arcs made for too much compression in the main chunk of the novel.

[theimmaterial]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

theimmaterial, on 01 March 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:

since i'm too lazy to actually write out why i think you're wrong, just consider this flak my disagreement with your opinion.

Disagreement without substance, isn't disagreement at all =D

making it what? disappeargreement?

No, just vacuous =D

[Iamme]

People expect books to end the way they want it to end, not the way author envisioned it to end. That's why so many are disappointed.

P.S: It seems Liosan and Assail were in cahoots.

[chaosek]

Ofc how you think it will end will influence your opinion of the book. However if the end is really good you don't mind. I feel SE and ICE missed a chance to connect the books, but that's my opinion. Esp. after the comments made about how it would be a good thing to read Stonewielder before tCG. And somethings just weren't fleshed out enough, like the whole FA and TL working together. They only hints we're the FA's the watch and the three nachts demons kill in DoD and one FA saying so in tCG. Also I have no clear idea why the TL attacked Karankas other than that they wanted the city or for some old grudge. Don't see how it helps the FA or why the needed to work together in the first place.

[Luzburg]

chaosek, on 02 March 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Ofc how you think it will end will influence your opinion of the book. However if the end is really good you don't mind. I feel SE and ICE missed a chance to connect the books, but that's my opinion. Esp. after the comments made about how it would be a good thing to read Stonewielder before tCG. And somethings just weren't fleshed out enough, like the whole FA and TL working together. They only hints we're the FA's the watch and the three nachts demons kill in DoD and one FA saying so in tCG. Also I have no clear idea why the TL attacked Karankas other than that they wanted the city or for some old grudge. Don't see how it helps the FA or why the needed to work together in the first place.

The alliance obviously died when the Liosan decided to chow down on a dragon and go on a rampage. The FA could have used that Army, perhaps the selfishness of Kadagar doomed the FA to failure. As for the other Liosan army, I really don't know. They were not working with the FA anyway.

Kadagar wanted to conquer the Tiste realms first and then more than likely land on Wu. Where they'd get blown up by munitions.


By the way. Anyone who didn't like the shake storyline ... why?

Poor Yedan. I nearly wept when Yan looked down on him and said 'your so beautiful'.

[blackzoid]

2 things

1: I always thought that ICE's books would not be needed to enjoy SE's. ICE's books are a superset of SE's only. I always thought that Stonewielder would not really come into it. No Skinner, no avowed etc.
The only possible niggle was that Kallor was not in the last book. Maybe he should have been a character in the Karsa sections. But Skinner? No need for him to be there at all.

2: Twilight was introduced back in Midnight Tides. The shake in Reaper's Gale. Thats not at the last minute. Thats planning.

[Iamme]

Watch took down a Pure FA just like that and then he killed a frakking dragon! Witness!

[Luzburg]

Iamme, on 02 March 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Watch took down a Pure FA just like that and then he killed a frakking dragon! Witness!

And hes gay. Which really shows SE's thinking on how heroism is irrelevant to all the minor things us humans find to downgrade other with.

I found that line where he admits he doesn't like women and the one where he talks about being a prince who won't produce an heir to be powerful. I was thinking he was destined for Skulldeath at that stage. Wouldn't that be a scary duo.

So the two main protaganists of the book are gay and lesbian. For a fantasy book is that precedented? I think its awesome and I'm straight.


The overwhelming ideal of the series and this book in particular, as I see it, is tolerance and intolerance. On one side we have a disparate alliance of races with many flaws facing down a totalitarian race of genocidal maniacs who believe they are perfect.

In the end the side who show compassion and tolerance are ascendant. The lmass and Jaghut mending relations is the greatest scene of the book and sums up this theme. The crippled god is released from Burn's flesh and allowed ascend into the heavens, thanks to the compassion of Tavore and her army. The viewpoints of the crippled god, how the sacrifices cause his true nature to revive, showing that it was his worshippers who caused his decline into evil and all he needed was somebody to show him the right path back. Lastly, hood has shown time and again that he is the most compassionate god of all. When he strode through Darujhistan, showing mercy to those who deserved it we saw a glimpse. When we discover he only took up the throne of death to end the horrific war against it we see how vast his love is.

Hood, is now my favourite character in the series ahead of Yedan and Kuru Qan.

[Findarato]

Luzburg, I agree with you in all points here.

This is a 'disappointed' thread, but I am not in the least disappointed by the TCG, now that I have (very quickly) read it once. This book will need a reread after some time so I can connect things better, also because I read it in turns with very stressy working days. I am not very good in explaining my impressions, there are many others in this forum who can do better.
One question I have about QB though. Although we do not know what/who he is, and has at least one Andii soul in him, how can he have a sister who is clealy human, and kiddie memories we read about in former books, when he is that old? maybe this is a dumb question and I have missed simple facts.

This post has been edited by Findarato: 02 March 2011 - 02:55 PM

[Iamme]

Findarato, on 02 March 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

Luzburg, I agree with you in all points here.

This is a 'disappointed' thread, but I am not in the least disappointed by the TCG, now that I have (very quickly) read it once. This book will need a reread after some time so I can connect things better, also because I read it in turns with very stressy working days. I am not very good in explaining my impressions, there are many others in this forum who can do better.
One question I have about QB though. Although we do not know what/who he is, and has at least one Andii soul in him, how can he have a sister who is clealy human, and kiddie memories we read about in former books, when he is that old? maybe this is a dumb question and I have missed simple facts.

Ben Adaephon Delat, Quick Ben, was born human and he has a human sister. I don't understand this much confusion since it's been explained clearly in the books. Bridgeburners chased 12 wizards/witches (they were not called Bridgeburners then) across seven city desert (Raraku?) and found out that one of the wizard had taken the soul of all the rest and that wizard is known as QB to us. One of those 11 soul might be a Tiste Andii .Since all 12 souls share one body, Quick Ben remembers stuff that Ben Adaephon Delat never experienced.

This post has been edited by Iamme: 02 March 2011 - 03:23 PM

[chaosek]

QB has twelve souls, one of those belongs to the brother of that sister. Also we don't get the childhood memories from QB but from his sister. I have two theories on this, either the Andii soul is dominant or the souls are working together. Either way the body that houses the twelve souls is the one with the sister.

[Findarato]

chaosek, on 02 March 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

QB has twelve souls, one of those belongs to the brother of that sister. Also we don't get the childhood memories from QB but from his sister. I have two theories on this, either the Andii soul is dominant or the souls are working together. Either way the body that houses the twelve souls is the one with the sister.

Thanks for the answers. I knew all this, but my confusion was about this one Andii soul being active, and the others not. As you said, it makes more sense to me, that the one soul is dominating.

[Sinisdar Toste]

theimmaterial, on 02 March 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

theimmaterial, on 01 March 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 March 2011 - 07:56 AM, said:

since i'm too lazy to actually write out why i think you're wrong, just consider this flak my disagreement with your opinion.

Disagreement without substance, isn't disagreement at all =D

making it what? disappeargreement?

No, just vacuous =D

so because i don't feel like explaining why i disagree, my post is vacuous? that's what you're saying right? just making sure. coz i know why i disagree, i've disagreed with the OP before and we haven't found any common ground. i'm not interested in arguing why i think he must have been completely deaf and blind every time tavore or sinn are on screen in the last two books. especially if he's not going to come back to read it, and it looks like he probably isn't.

[tiam]

Findarato, on 02 March 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

chaosek, on 02 March 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

QB has twelve souls, one of those belongs to the brother of that sister. Also we don't get the childhood memories from QB but from his sister. I have two theories on this, either the Andii soul is dominant or the souls are working together. Either way the body that houses the twelve souls is the one with the sister.

Thanks for the answers. I knew all this, but my confusion was about this one Andii soul being active, and the others not. As you said, it makes more sense to me, that the one soul is dominating.

At one point Qb says to Kalam that one of his souls is really old, hinting that this is the Andii one. I dont think that would be the dominant one but it might be the most useful one given its knowledge and experience. I do find this a little bit odd though given the emphasis on blood, notably royal blood, to enter Kharkanas and KG in general but when QB uses it to get that magic horse he simply acknowledges a soul in him.

[spiralx]

Sinisdar Toste, on 02 March 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

so because i don't feel like explaining why i disagree, my post is vacuous? that's what you're saying right? just making sure. coz i know why i disagree, i've disagreed with the OP before and we haven't found any common ground. i'm not interested in arguing why i think he must have been completely deaf and blind every time tavore or sinn are on screen in the last two books. especially if he's not going to come back to read it, and it looks like he probably isn't.

I think his point was that your initial post didn't add anything to the discussion. And the personal attacks are just childish.

----

Anyway, I've just finished the book and I'm left feeling a bit... meh. There were undoubtedly some amazing scenes and sections of the book, but also lots of elements that seemed only to distract from the story as a whole - whereas some people are saying that they wished various plot lines had have had a resolution, I felt that, especially in the first half of the book, there were just too many scenes that didn't seem to connect to anything else and for me broke the flow of the story. And a lot of minor characters whose stories I didn't really care about to be honest.

It's entirely possible that this is partly due to not having re-read the previous books in quite a long time; at some point I'll read all 10 books in sequence and see how that changes things. But whereas the other books I've read either in a marathon 10-12 hour sitting or non-stop for a couple of days, it's taken me over a week to finish TCG, and several times during that I've picked up other fiction to read rather than TCG... which is probably my most honest verdict on the book.

Still looking forward to the future books though, I'm happy for things to have been left unresolved to be used as the basis for more stories to come

This post has been edited by spiralx: 03 March 2011 - 12:37 AM

[Hetan]

As requested the OP's account has been deleted

[leena'saurus]

Hmmmmmm.

I think the thing with SE's writing is that he wants the reader to read between the lines with a lots of things, use our imaginations and that. I dont see how it can be THAT dissapointing to the point of deppresingly so. Wouldnt we be a lot more dissapointed if SE spent paragraphs and paragraphs (warning: here follows an admittedly poor and slightly retarded example-) describing how Skulldeath survives, meets a nice boy, runs off into the sunset, finally orgasms and magically gives birth to a large and happy family? I want SE to emotionally punch me in the face repeatedly by giving some much-loved charachters short (and sometimes underwhelming) deaths, I like the idea that theres loose-ends and moments where you have to put the book down and wonder what just happened, or feel genuine dissapointment that something happens the way you wherent expecting it. I think a simple way to put it is that, like many things in life, you either "get it" or you dont. For me, its not about fight scenes that last chapter after chapter, where the "heroes" of the book get the epic page space they deserve. I take from the whole series the actual meanings put across (about humanity etc.etc.) and personally I think if you do get the meanings and views SE puts across it can be life changing.
And Quick Ben and Kalam being amazing helps as well.


....I probably didnt even get my point across then.
First time poster, take pity.



Oh, and what's an 'OP'??

This post has been edited by leena'saurus: 03 March 2011 - 08:06 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

Otataral Penis. Very dangerous.

On QB, some have said that we will "never know," but with his clear connections to MD/Andii/KG, I'm pretty confident we'll get more insights (and possible final answers) come the Kharkanas trilogy.

(and OP means Original Poster)