[Pig Iron]

I had a great time. It's dangerous cause I always sit holding my breath when I read ICE or SE, it's so much fun I just don't want to miss anything.

And the ending was a fricking tsunami.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 14 December 2010 - 11:19 PM

[Skywalker]

Didn't see this posted elseplace, but when Hiam and Quint are talking about why the Lady allows Ussu to practice magic, Hiam says something like "exceptions are made sometimes, there is precedent" and then thinks/ talks about two traveling sorcerers the lady tolerated. My immediate thought was - Bauchelain and Korbal Broach? Nice throwaway line I thought

[Khellendros]

Ahem, it was one of the things I mentioned in my Pros, Cons, Questions thread

[Abyss]

...and yes, i totally thought of them too.

[aschwiig]

D, on 11 December 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

D, on 11 December 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

MOST UNFORGIVABLE LITTLE MISTAKE FROM SE'S SERIES: Leoman burned the Malazan 7th army at Y'Ghatan? When did that happen?

Are you taking issue with the typo in the army number or the reference to Leoman frying an army entirely? Because one is a typo and the other you're wrong.

The typo, it should've been the Malaz 14th. It's one thing to get wrong a random historical reference from the events of the First Empire or whatever, it's quite another to get wrong a major event that happened 4 books ago!

So, he was in fact half right

[Sheve]

Temper is mentioned to when Kiska i thinking about entering the deadhouse


"Leaving, she noticed an old man squatting against a stone wall across the way; his great thick arm hung over his knees, and a white thatching of scars criss-crossed his bald pate. The man gaze followed her as she left. She thought he looked vaguely familiar: probably from her youth on the island."

[Silk]

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

Jenisapt Rul, on 11 December 2010 - 08:43 AM, said:

...In the end, I guess the Ivanr pieces were typical of the Malazan world, in that the peace lovers became the murderers, but we've seen this before in the series, I would have liked something a bit more profound and tragic.

To be fair, Ivanr mostly kept from killing. it was everyone else who wasn't buying it. What I wasn't buying was his ongoing anti-killing rants.

Quote

I did like that the kid Ivanr left behind came back to fuck him up, that was a beautiful piece of writing.

Agreed it was a really nice touch how that played out, from the initial rescue to the end.

Jenisapt Rul, on 11 December 2010 - 01:31 PM, said:

...But the Cult of Dessembrae does not seem to bother much with what Dassem desires or hates, tragedy does not go along well with peace or pacifism.

And that goes back to the whole 'gods and followers don't always agree on who's in charge' thing, but even so the Cult was right there chanting when Das' showed up in D'stan to chop Hood's head off...

KingTeholBeddict, on 11 December 2010 - 02:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 07:17 AM, said:

BEST BATTLE: I'm split on this. The Malaz and Blue Moranth vs the Mare blockade was awesome and the best sea battles we've yet seen in the series, but i really really enjoyed the Black Queen's tactics against the Joulians. ICE raised his game nicely in terms of describing casts of thousands hurling themselves at each other with sharp objects in this book. The fights against the Riders at the wall were nicely done too, in a brutal cold and wet way.

Isn't this pretty much the only major naval battle we've seen?

You can't really include the Bonehunters vs. the Letheri Imperial Navy (let's call it that...) since the ships never actually engaged...

True, tho I was thinking of the naval engagements generally - Kalam's plotline in DG, the Malazan fleet confronting the Edur in TB... still on an overall level, while i don't put the Mare blockade on the same level as Vathar Crossing or Capustan, that was some great action writing even so.

D, on 11 December 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

MOST UNFORGIVABLE LITTLE MISTAKE FROM SE'S SERIES: Leoman burned the Malazan 7th army at Y'Ghatan? When did that happen?

Are you taking issue with the typo in the army number or the reference to Leoman frying an army entirely? Because one is a typo and the other you're wrong.

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MOST UNFORGIVABLE LITTLE MISTAKE FROM YOUR OWN SERIES: The priestess who was on an Edur ship, spoke Edur and was referred to as Edur, has travelled north to spread the ways of Dessembrae which include turning people human!

Y'know, I totally didn't connect the Edur girl from RCG with the Priestess, but if you consider that as an Edur witch even before aspecting to Dessembrae she could have easily altered her appearance, i actually really like this possibility and i'm glad you mentioned it.

I'm sure I remember that she was described with blond hair... I was convinced she was a letheri and not an edur

[polishgenius]

My two cents:

First, the annoyances. The ending is one- I've seen a lot of people complain about the lack of explanation, but that didn't bother me. What did was that it seemed not really as epic as the scale of events demanded. It's the one point where ICE doesn't really stand up to SE and it was more evident here than in ROTCG, for me. A massive wave swamping everything should have more awe to it...

The other is the sheer amount and speed with which we flit between PoVs. Frustrating because good characters feel more insubstantial than they are. The most notable is Suth- a lot of his development seems sudden even though it isn't. Tbh the book could have been longer. There's a comparison to be made to Midnight Tides and Reaper's Gale- the whole setting and storyline bears a fair bit of similarity, but Erikson had one book to set up the region and one to introduce the Malazans, whereas ICE did both in one go.

Oh, also, I found Rilish magically not dying and getting home to be awfully convenient.


The good: Despite the rush, the aforementioned characters. There was no-one close to Nait, but they were a solid bunch, and likeable. The show was especially stolen by the supporting characters- Faro, Manask and Iron Bars (even though we've met him before), plus on a lower-key note the fisher-girl who Shell talks to - I liked the fishers in general, they were cool. Unuth was a great PoV villain. And Malick managed a good presence despite not being in it, like people have said.
Plus Kyle wasn't annoying!

The world: ICE did a good job of showing us a whole continent that we basically knew nothing of, despite as I said before not having a lot of space to do it.

The battles: Particularly those involving the Malazans. Basically ICE's strength is characters and the more zoomed-in aspects of following his soldiers around the battlefield was well done.

The journey through Shadow: Despite not much happening, very enjoyable. Kiska and Leoman (like Abyss, I grinned like a loon when he showed up) interacted very well, Shadowthrone was fun if less manic than we're used to and he described the setting well. I totally didn't it not being
wrapped up, as it means we get more.

And I was intrigued by the hint that Edgewalker doesn't talk to Shadowthrone and this gets his goat...

[Skywalker]

One unresolved thingie just came to mind...

When the Overlord and Ussu visit the dungeons, there is some critter there imprisoned for an eternity who they torture to get information. ICE never explains who/ what that is right? Or am I completely mis-characterizing the events in the dungeon and that was just another Ussu torture-turgy victim?

[Varen]

Skywalker, on 19 December 2010 - 03:53 AM, said:

One unresolved thingie just came to mind...

When the Overlord and Ussu visit the dungeons, there is some critter there imprisoned for an eternity who they torture to get information. ICE never explains who/ what that is right? Or am I completely mis-characterizing the events in the dungeon and that was just another Ussu torture-turgy victim?

I got the impression it was one of the stormriders.

[Aptorian]

The fact that it doesn't die despite its wounds despite the damage suggests to me that it could be a strong Jaghut.

But in all honesty it could be any kind of ascendant or ancient being that we haven't met before.

[tiam]

That it survived despite its wounds suggests its not a Storm Rider, they seem to be mortal enough (as in killable by mortals) so it surviving its wounds suggests a large beastie we havnt seen before. Also when ussu is talking to the Lady he thinks to himself about how the Lady musnt know about their prisoner suggesting he was important but we never hear from him again.

Too much of this if you ask me. Things we see glimpses of but never hear about again. One of the best pieces of plot writing Erikson ever did was the Silanda. We see it in DG covered in bodies, then in HOC how it got full of bodeies, then in MT why it was in the nascent in the first place then in BH we finally see it was Binadas. For me this is why I love Erikson but the Korelri plotline isnt going to be revisited for a few books and it needs more closure, Alot of people are saying Esslemonmts boks should be seen as a standalone novel as NOK and ROTCG were but this seems unfinished.

[Abyss]

Sheve, on 17 December 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Temper is mentioned to when Kiska i thinking about entering the deadhouse

"Leaving, she noticed an old man ...probably from her youth on the island."

That was totally Temper, tho i'm blanking somewhat - did they actually meet in NoK without Temper wearing his whole armour, lobster-helmet included?

Silk, on 18 December 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

Y'know, I totally didn't connect the Edur girl from RCG with the Priestess, but if you consider that as an Edur witch even before aspecting to Dessembrae she could have easily altered her appearance, i actually really like this possibility and i'm glad you mentioned it.

I'm sure I remember that she was described with blond hair... I was convinced she was a letheri and not an edur

Letheri? Do you mean Korelri or something else? because i don't think we've ever seen a Dassem conntaction with Leth, except for the Edur he pureed in RCG.

polishgenius, on 19 December 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:

My two cents:
... A massive wave swamping everything should have more awe to it...

I dunno, between the Stormwall collapsing and the CGrd, fishers and Hiam's perspectives on the wave i thought it was bighuge enough.

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The other is the sheer amount and speed with which we flit between PoVs. Frustrating because good characters feel more insubstantial than they are. The most notable is Suth- a lot of his development seems sudden even though it isn't. Tbh the book could have been longer. ...

Again, don't agree. Suth starts as 'primitive tribesman looking to test himself' and by the end he's 'effective soldier looking out for his squad but still primitive enough to figure screw the mission i wanna go stab Pyke a lot'. The steps made sense to me.

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Oh, also, I found Rilish magically not dying and getting home to be awfully convenient.

He was tossed into the water. So was Greymane. The Stormriders were around and feeling generous. That's my rationale and i'm sticking to it.

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The good: ...

Agreed w everything you mentioned.

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And I was intrigued by the hint that Edgewalker doesn't talk to Shadowthrone and this gets his goat...

But is that actually accurate? Doesn't Edgy and ST have a chat along with Hood and Cots at the beginning of TtH?

Varen, on 19 December 2010 - 01:05 PM, said:

Skywalker, on 19 December 2010 - 03:53 AM, said:

One unresolved thingie just came to mind...

When the Overlord and Ussu visit the dungeons, there is some critter there imprisoned for an eternity who they torture to get information. ICE never explains who/ what that is right? Or am I completely mis-characterizing the events in the dungeon and that was just another Ussu torture-turgy victim?

I got the impression it was one of the stormriders.

Jenisapt Rul, on 19 December 2010 - 02:25 PM, said:

The fact that it doesn't die despite its wounds despite the damage suggests to me that it could be a strong Jaghut.

But in all honesty it could be any kind of ascendant or ancient being that we haven't met before.

tiam, on 20 December 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

That it survived despite its wounds suggests its not a Storm Rider, they seem to be mortal enough (as in killable by mortals) so it surviving its wounds suggests a large beastie we havnt seen before. Also when ussu is talking to the Lady he thinks to himself about how the Lady musnt know about their prisoner suggesting he was important but we never hear from him again.

Too much of this if you ask me. Things we see glimpses of but never hear about again. ...

I actually liked this element. One of those things where we don't need more than what we see. (tho we'd LIKE more, bcs we're greedy...). We've seen versions of this before... the possessed T3 Kalam found in HoC, the FA the Sengars fight and the demon Mael and Huntress bind in MT, the K'chain that Karsa fights in TB, Dejim Nebrahl... someone, probably the NOs, have been binding powerful critters around the world for a long long time...

[champ]

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

Silk, on 18 December 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 December 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

Y'know, I totally didn't connect the Edur girl from RCG with the Priestess, but if you consider that as an Edur witch even before aspecting to Dessembrae she could have easily altered her appearance, i actually really like this possibility and i'm glad you mentioned it.

I'm sure I remember that she was described with blond hair... I was convinced she was a letheri and not an edur

Letheri? Do you mean Korelri or something else? because i don't think we've ever seen a Dassem conntaction with Leth, except for the Edur he pureed in RCG.

I think he/she was referring to the fact that they thought the witch women that jumped from the Edur ship was in fact Letherii and not Edur... as in she was described to have blond hair (which I thought too but I rechecked the paragraph and couldnt find any quote describing her looks)

[Abyss]

champooon, on 20 December 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think he/she was referring to the fact that they thought the witch women that jumped from the Edur ship was in fact Letherii and not Edur... as in she was described to have blond hair (which I thought too but I rechecked the paragraph and couldnt find any quote describing her looks)

That would make sense too but for the point you raise.

Doesn't determine anything, but aside from Feather Witch i don't think we actually ever saw a Letherii human mage working for the Edur.

I figured Silk's ref meant to suggest a native Korelri as opposed to an outsider, tho i still like the notion it was the priestess from RCG.

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on 20 December 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

I dunno, between the Stormwall collapsing and the CGrd, fishers and Hiam's perspectives on the wave i thought it was bighuge enough.

My problem was with the writing, not with the stuff itself. It's a matter of taste, I just didn't think ICE captured the scale that well.

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Again, don't agree. Suth starts as 'primitive tribesman looking to test himself' and by the end he's 'effective soldier looking out for his squad but still primitive enough to figure screw the mission i wanna go stab Pyke a lot'. The steps made sense to me.

Yeah, the developments themselves were fine, and so were the steps along the way, I'd just like to have spent more time seeing them.

Quote

But is that actually accurate? Doesn't Edgy and ST have a chat along with Hood and Cots at the beginning of TtH?

Did ST and Edgy talk personally though? I could be wrong, I don't remember that scene very well, but that was the impression I got from Warran's reaction there.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 20 December 2010 - 06:22 PM

[champ]

Abyss, on 20 December 2010 - 05:41 PM, said:

champooon, on 20 December 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:

I think he/she was referring to the fact that they thought the witch women that jumped from the Edur ship was in fact Letherii and not Edur... as in she was described to have blond hair (which I thought too but I rechecked the paragraph and couldnt find any quote describing her looks)

That would make sense too but for the point you raise.

Doesn't determine anything, but aside from Feather Witch i don't think we actually ever saw a Letherii human mage working for the Edur.

I figured Silk's ref meant to suggest a native Korelri as opposed to an outsider, tho i still like the notion it was the priestess from RCG.

Aye, defintely better, plus if it is her from RotCG and ICE has meant this intentionally - which I expect - well... It's how the Malazan series works and to such great effect, the little snippet of a mysterious character encounter we commonly come across in one story, to then play a larger part in a future book and we face palm ourselves when we realise who it is... Ala Brokeface!

edit

There was one point that made me pause when reading the description, she is referred to as "the girl" and not the Edur, also to back up the point that it is her from RotCG they meet her after walking down from the mountains after fleeing the Stormwall, doesn't specify the direction they come from but Dassem tells her to head north, could be back the way they came as she's about the mountains in SW!

This post has been edited by champooon: 20 December 2010 - 10:21 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i would say that edgy and ST probably haven't "talked" talked. the scene in TtH's prologue was the arrangement of a deal, and one that only involved edge in a side-role (and we still don't even really know what his part was, other than to 'mitigate'). doubt you could consider that to be ST and edgy talking.

what i'm thinkin though, is that edgy hasn't ever had a conversation with ST, despite the fact that he sought out cotillion to witness the convo with ampelas etal. he just can't be arsed to pay attention to another usurper, except when they do things that pique his interest, like talk to dragons.

[champ]

I think Edgy has had his interest piqued though as he also set Telorast and Curdle onto Apsalars tail...

[Tattersail_]

Abyss, on 13 December 2010 - 04:01 PM, said:

Gothos, on 13 December 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

...places where I really wanted to punch the writer's grinning trollface:
1. When Greymane told Nok that Kyle is from Assail
2. When Ussu 'discovered' what's behind the Vow
3. When Kyle was on the boat coming towards home and just passingly mentioned Lost Boys and Assail

You can't really fault authors for building suspense, and they are doing a great job of it.

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4. When the book ended without any climatic showdown of any sort with the Lady. She/it just seemed extremely passive when things started to go badly.

Yes and no... the Synod and Rillish's squads confronted the Lady's people directly and secured the boxes so the Stormriders could take him/her/it down, which, at least in theory, was way cooler than Yana or whoever stacking the things with munitions and running for it. And ultimately the Stormwall and the religion and everything were the Lady (CG chunk's) way of protecting herself because she was vulnerable. Put another way, a smal part of the CG co-opted an entire continent to protect itself. When the Malazans invaded, it took over their entire army and made them turn traitor.

we know from elsewhere that the CG isn't really able to at directly. He acts thru manipulation and plot - the Pannion Domin, the Letherii Edur, etc etc. this was another such instance and it took, in various ways, the Malazan Empire, the QoD, Dessembrae and someone acting for D'riss (Greymane's sword and Kyle's Thel Akai necklace), all acting indirectly together, to displace the Lady.

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As for Mallick Rel, I must say that despite his villany in previous books, he seems a competent emperor. The takeover seems a lot like the previous one. He's a devious snake, but now he's at the steering wheel... and he's a Malazan snake now. I'm looking forward to reading more about him now.

It's just nuts how with only a few lines ICE changed so much about our view of Mallick. I despise him, yet i'm oddly encouraged to see he's doing at least a few clever things for the Empire... of course it could all go horribly wrong, and yet it's nice that ICE didn't send him directly into Evil Overlord mode.

at the beginning, we see The Lady. she is described and we get to picture her, how does this relate to the crippled God? is she a manifestation of his will? how can she be the crippled God? just thinking about it makes my head hurt. i am more inclined to what you are saying by referencing the pannion domin and the letherii edur and it all makes more sense. this also shows how the crippled God is going to be totally awesome, especially if a little chunk of him took this much effort to bring down!