[Shinrei]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 17 November 2010 - 04:37 PM, said:

I don't get why you can't wrap your head around the idea that Laseen would know who a prominent and wealthy citizen, who was also the pre-eminent scholar on her predecessors and herself, was. Just because it didn't happen in the 5 seconds of screen time we got of Laseen and Tavore before HoC doesn't mean it didn't happen.

By your reasoning it makes just as much sense to question how the hell Lorn became adjunct, because we never get any backstory on her other than the fact that she grew up in the Mouse. Which, btw, Laseen had destroyed basically in her time as regent. It seems like perhaps Lorn would be much less trust-worthy as Laseen's chosen adjunct than a woman whose brother was part of an army that was fake-exiled for political reasons.

I don't require a backstory to every character, just when a character launches into importance from obscurity in a way that seems a little too convenient to be underexplained.

I like Abyss' explanation because it at least shows how Tavore managed to get noticed, but what could have been done, for example, would be that during the scene where Paran returns to his home estate in GotM and meets his sisters, there could have been some mention of Tavore's "career" advancing within Paran's musings or something like that.

We don't need a backstory on Lorn because she's established as the "character who is the adjunct" from the beginning.

And yes, I DO trust SE. That's why these are "little points" and in no way ruining my enjoyment of the series.

Thanks for the replies. I have read all of the books, so no worries about spoilers, but it's my first full "in order" re-read and I'm already surprised at all the details I've missed/forgotten.

[ShadowRaven]

To me the fact that Laseen chose Tavore just adds to the whole theme of most people never being able to guess what's going on in both of their minds. Furthermore, the story of the Bonehunters would have seemed a lot different if it was stated outright that Tavore was well versed in tactics, etc. When it is not said outright it makes a lot more sense and an adds to the tension when the soldiers within the ranks question her ability to lead, especially in the beginning. Add to that that before Tavore is put in command we have had time to see plenty of older, extremely competent commanders, and also some VEEEERY bad ones (e.g. Pormqual), so you are more excited to see how it all turns out when she remains a question mark.

The question that has kept nagging at me for ages, although it is probably something that will be addressed by either ICE or SE, is what the hell is the Queen of Dreams up to? After recruiting Leoman and Dunsparrow, we haven't heard anything of her, not even in the deck readings if my memory serves me.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ulrik, on 17 November 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

 5 - We still dont know if Madrun Badrun and Lazan Door are alive! This part is IMO veeery selfish from SE, unless he made deal with ICE. Which brings question - how the hell mere (?) Seguleh survived being, probably literally, "under mountain"? 

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure Torvald mentions them at the end bleeding but very much alive. I could be wrong of course. I'll check.

[Abyss]

ShadowRaven, on 18 November 2010 - 01:43 AM, said:

To me the fact that Laseen chose Tavore just adds to the whole theme of most people never being able to guess what's going on in both of their minds. Furthermore, the story of the Bonehunters would have seemed a lot different if it was stated outright that Tavore was well versed in tactics, etc. When it is not said outright it makes a lot more sense and an adds to the tension when the soldiers within the ranks question her ability to lead, especially in the beginning. Add to that that before Tavore is put in command we have had time to see plenty of older, extremely competent commanders, and also some VEEEERY bad ones (e.g. Pormqual), so you are more excited to see how it all turns out when she remains a question mark.

I have wondered more than once whether whatever power was feeding Tavore information that led to her taking the 14th rogue and everything else, was also somewhat behind her being selected as Adjunct.

Quote

The question that has kept nagging at me for ages, although it is probably something that will be addressed by either ICE or SE, is what the hell is the Queen of Dreams up to? After recruiting Leoman and Dunsparrow, we haven't heard anything of her, not even in the deck readings if my memory serves me.

Good question. While MoI implied an alliance between her, ST and Hood, and Mogara seems to be working for her in healing Mappo, her actions have been pretty wide open and i'm not so certain she'll turn out to be on the side of the angels when all's said and done.

Bauchelain the Evil, on 18 November 2010 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 17 November 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

5 - We still dont know if Madrun Badrun and Lazan Door are alive! This part is IMO veeery selfish from SE, unless he made deal with ICE. Which brings question - how the hell mere (?) Seguleh survived being, probably literally, "under mountain"?

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure Torvald mentions them at the end bleeding but very much alive. I could be wrong of course. I'll check.

I vaguely recall someone confirming somewhere that they aren't dead, tho i was disappointed with how little action they actually saw in TtH.


If Harllo is a dragon does that mean Stonny is secretly Tiam in disguise?

- Abyss, ...notes she never really seemed the skanky ho type... mind you there was that thing with Hetan's brother... and the lady crime lord... hey waitasec!

[MTS]

Abyss, on 18 November 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Quote

The question that has kept nagging at me for ages, although it is probably something that will be addressed by either ICE or SE, is what the hell is the Queen of Dreams up to? After recruiting Leoman and Dunsparrow, we haven't heard anything of her, not even in the deck readings if my memory serves me.

Good question. While MoI implied an alliance between her, ST and Hood, and Mogara seems to be working for her in healing Mappo, her actions have been pretty wide open and i'm not so certain she'll turn out to be on the side of the angels when all's said and done.

Mogora was working for Ardata in healing Mappo, not the Queen of Dreams. She gets mixed up with Hood and Shadowthrone through Dunsparrow. Going back through that bit I found this part very interesting:

Quote

‘I believe Hood now regrets his decision – his lack of humility stings him yet again. Dunsparrow, with you, I suspect, he may seek restitution...’

Perhaps Leoman and Dunsparrow will have something to do with Hood and his 14 Jaghut in TCG?

[Abyss]

MTS, on 18 November 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

...Mogora was working for Ardata in healing Mappo, not the Queen of Dreams.

I know the prevailing view is that Ardata (the 'Queen of Spiders') and the QoD are separate entities, but i remain on the fence about that and the whole Jhess the Weaver thing. There seems to be a lot of overlap in aspect there.

I suppose i could add that to 'little point that bothers me' but i'm not really bothered by it.

[beru]

MTS, on 18 November 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

'I believe Hood now regrets his decision – his lack of humility stings him yet again. Dunsparrow, with you, I suspect, he may seek restitution...'

Perhaps Leoman and Dunsparrow will have something to do with Hood and his 14 Jaghut in TCG?

he does look for a wife...

[Illuyankas]

beru, on 18 November 2010 - 05:38 PM, said:

MTS, on 18 November 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

'I believe Hood now regrets his decision – his lack of humility stings him yet again. Dunsparrow, with you, I suspect, he may seek restitution...'

Perhaps Leoman and Dunsparrow will have something to do with Hood and his 14 Jaghut in TCG?

he does look for a wife...

THIS

THIS IS A LITTLE POINT THAT KEEPS BOTHERING ME

[beru]

well now we know that malazan book of the fallen is just the looooong story of a guy with a fancy for a employee...

[MTS]

Abyss, on 18 November 2010 - 05:33 PM, said:

MTS, on 18 November 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

...Mogora was working for Ardata in healing Mappo, not the Queen of Dreams.

I know the prevailing view is that Ardata (the 'Queen of Spiders') and the QoD are separate entities, but i remain on the fence about that and the whole Jhess the Weaver thing. There seems to be a lot of overlap in aspect there.

I suppose i could add that to 'little point that bothers me' but i'm not really bothered by it.

Well, I can imagine Jhess and Ardata being the same entity, but what makes you think Ardata and the Queen of Dreams are the same person? It's heavily hinted Ardata is an Elder Goddess and the Queen of Dreams is a human Ascendant for one, although it would explain the whole Ardatha tribute remark from Kallor in MoI...

Oh, something that bothers me: those damn cryptic hints about the mules! I need to know, dammit!

This post has been edited by MTS: 18 November 2010 - 06:00 PM

[Abyss]

Illuyankas, on 18 November 2010 - 05:46 PM, said:

beru, on 18 November 2010 - 05:38 PM, said:

MTS, on 18 November 2010 - 04:42 PM, said:

Quote

'I believe Hood now regrets his decision – his lack of humility stings him yet again. Dunsparrow, with you, I suspect, he may seek restitution...'

Perhaps Leoman and Dunsparrow will have something to do with Hood and his 14 Jaghut in TCG?

he does look for a wife...

THIS

THIS IS A LITTLE POINT THAT KEEPS BOTHERING ME

Oh, you just don't want Hood to be happy...

[Seras]

Contributin'

1) After Brys kills Karos, the two-headed insect heads towards him, and Bugg says "Yes, he's next!"

2) Did Brys ever get both his fingers back?

3) The conversation regarding the "dialogues" of the warrens, between Mockra and Seren

4) When did Corabb get blessed by Oponn?

[ShadowRaven]

Getting back to Abyss's comment about Ardata and QoD possibly being the same person, I don't personally believe it. However, QoD having a second identity would certainly explain why we haven't heard from her in a while. Also in DoD, since Lostara, Ublala, and Brys are assigned as Champion, Herald, and King of High House Life respectively, it would certainly hint that T'riss is also operating behind the scenes. And not that it has any relationship, but the choice of book name vs. the goddess: Dust of Dreams, Queen of Dreams, go figure.


Anyways, to add to the questions about things nagging at you:

1) Using chaos magic has been shown to lead to insanity and deformation, for example in the case of the Edur Warlocks or the CG's high priest in Darujhistan in TTH. How is it that Kallor for example has not changed even though he "serves" the Crippled God and has been subjected to his magic (for example in MoI)? Same could be said for Skinner but we really don't know since we don't see him out of his armor.

2) How exactly does Jaghut sorcery work and on what scale? In some of the books it is said fairly straightforwardly that the strongest Jaghuts could basically destroy entire continents/create ice-ages. Does it work slowly or instantly, for example in the case of Gothos sealing Lether? In DoD they are able to use it for straightforward combat against the KCN, but why couldn't they then destroy the T'lann Imass coming after them in the same way if they were capable of destroying continents?

3) Maybe I just missed a part where it was explained, but what exactly is the Abyss? Is it a warren of chaos?

[Thel Akai]

Abyss, on 18 November 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 18 November 2010 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ulrik, on 17 November 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

5 - We still dont know if Madrun Badrun and Lazan Door are alive! This part is IMO veeery selfish from SE, unless he made deal with ICE. Which brings question - how the hell mere (?) Seguleh survived being, probably literally, "under mountain"?

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure Torvald mentions them at the end bleeding but very much alive. I could be wrong of course. I'll check.

I vaguely recall someone confirming somewhere that they aren't dead, tho i was disappointed with how little action they actually saw in TtH.

I finished a re-read recently and I'm certain they did survive. There's one sentence in there about some battered, but alive Seguleh.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Erayle, on 19 November 2010 - 06:33 AM, said:

Contributin'

1) After Brys kills Karos, the two-headed insect heads towards him, and Bugg says "Yes, he's next!"

2) Did Brys ever get both his fingers back?

3) The conversation regarding the "dialogues" of the warrens, between Mockra and Seren

4) When did Corabb get blessed by Oponn?

1) Bugg's comment refers to the Errant after Brys swears in his name.

2) I think it's only one. The Champion of the Rat Catchers gives him one and Bruthern Tanra stole the other from Ferather Witch but never managed to to summon Brys.

4) Probably since ever. Already in HoC he is incredibly lucky( I believe he survives a cusser or something) and it was confirmed in TBH by the QoD.

[Traveller]

Yep, Corabb is lucky from the first scene he's in at least.. well, really he's introduced through a series of scenes as Leomans sidekick - cheating death and aquiring new weapons in new and interesting ways.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

ShadowRaven, on 19 November 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

1) Using chaos magic has been shown to lead to insanity and deformation, for example in the case of the Edur Warlocks or the CG's high priest in Darujhistan in TTH. How is it that Kallor for example has not changed even though he "serves" the Crippled God and has been subjected to his magic (for example in MoI)? Same could be said for Skinner but we really don't know since we don't see him out of his armor.

2) How exactly does Jaghut sorcery work and on what scale? In some of the books it is said fairly straightforwardly that the strongest Jaghuts could basically destroy entire continents/create ice-ages. Does it work slowly or instantly, for example in the case of Gothos sealing Lether? In DoD they are able to use it for straightforward combat against the KCN, but why couldn't they then destroy the T'lann Imass coming after them in the same way if they were capable of destroying continents?

3) Maybe I just missed a part where it was explained, but what exactly is the Abyss? Is it a warren of chaos?

Actually I think I can explain these.

1. We've only actually seen Kallor use sorcery in MoI when he knocked down Korlat and Tayschrenn. And then sort of again in RotCG when a portal opens up and he jumps through it, though it seemed implied that tCG opened that for him. So perhaps he just hasn't used chaos enough for his body to begin to decay and get all weird. Another possible explanation is that he is basically an ascendant (I know the curse, but he's still of comparable power) so maybe it will take him longer anyway since he's more powerful than Mosag & everyone else you mentioned. Lastly, the century candles preserve his form and stop him from aging, so perhaps they offer a measure of protection against this as well?

2. Jaghut sorcery, like all sorcery, works on a different scale depending on the user and what they need to be accomplished. in DG which you're quoting, List says that Jaghut would raise mountains of ice and turn continents to ice fast or slow, depending on their strategy. But also remember this, Gothos is probably one of the 3 most powerful Jaghut we see in the books, even if there were more as powerful back in the day when the Malazan Ice Age was happening. BUT it wasn't just one or two T'lan Imass that were hunting them all. They were being hunted by entire clans. potentially dozens or hundreds of undead warriors that weren't bothered by ice or cold coming after solitary Jaghuts. And finally, T'lan Imass sorcery uses Tellann. Fire. So that was probably helpful in going up against ice.

3. The Abyss is an empty vast nothingness. Although we find out in TtH that there is a bottom and it is cluttered with everything that has ever ended up there. The warren of chaos is different, we see it from Toc and Quick's perspective at different times.

[Quick Bill]

Shinrei, on 17 November 2010 - 03:04 PM, said:

Thanks for the answers, although I was hoping people would contribute their own niggling points (thanks coco).

I like Illy's answer for #3, but I'm not still not seeing it for #1. I'm a coldsteel cha-cha dancer but the Emperor of Japan still hasn't had me over for tea. We're given no backstory as to why Laseen would have any reason to know who the hell Tavore is beyond another name on the nobles for culling roll call.

That is party of the mystery. We have no idea how the Empress knows half the shit she supposedly knows or must know in order to do what she does.

The whole imperial court is a bloody mystery. So, in short, we don't know. The network of spies, , advisers, manipulators and bureaucrats that must exist (but of which we have no knowledge) in order for the empire to function. For the most part we are kept in the dark about the actual mechanics of decision making and the inner political and bureaucratic workings of the empire.

[Abyss]

KALLOR - doesn't wield Chaos personally, he calls on the CG who throws it in on his behalf, hence he's protected from the mess.

CORABB - I vaguely recall that we see him in late DG or early HoC and nothing in particular happens until about the end of HoC when Leoman sends him on a mission and he dodges arrows. The cusser thing comes a bit later. His investment by Oponn is confirmed by the QoD in TB. I expect this to go very very wrong in TCG.

LASEEN - has agents and spies and seers and all kinds of mojo working for her as one might expect, not the least of which was Tayshrenn himself up to a point.

JAGHUT - are not all equal and their power levels vary. Gothos is an extreme example. Cynnigig in HoC also shows us they aren't limitted to Omtose.

THE ABYSS - is a devastatingly cute, witty, clever Canadian with a propensity for referring to himself in the third person... or possibly the space between chaos and everything else, or just another term for chaos itself. The space we see in TtH is probably an edge of it where it has physical dimensions.

THE MULES - are beyond human comprehension.

[Thel Akai]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 November 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

BUT it wasn't just one or two T'lan Imass that were hunting them all. They were being hunted by entire clans. potentially dozens or hundreds of undead warriors that weren't bothered by ice or cold coming after solitary Jaghuts.

More like tens of thousands I thought.