[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Thel Akai, on 19 November 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 November 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

BUT it wasn't just one or two T'lan Imass that were hunting them all. They were being hunted by entire clans. potentially dozens or hundreds of undead warriors that weren't bothered by ice or cold coming after solitary Jaghuts.

More like tens of thousands I thought.

Well all in all tens of thousands, I assume if you are scouring the globe to commit genocide you split up a bit to be more efficient.

[worry]

Off the top of my head, the daughters of Mael come to mind. I know there's the idea that Beru changes sex halfway through, but he's mentioned as Lord of Storms in more than just GotM, so I'm not sure I buy that (and if I did, that would still bother me). So there's Nerruse and...? Perhaps several more female sea deities. I wouldn't mind it so much as a figure of speech, but it was Killy who last mentioned the daughters and she's not prone to wax poetic.

[Shinrei]

Abyss, on 19 November 2010 - 06:47 PM, said:

CORABB - I vaguely recall that we see him in late DG or early HoC and nothing in particular happens until about the end of HoC when Leoman sends him on a mission and he dodges arrows. The cusser thing comes a bit later. His investment by Oponn is confirmed by the QoD in TB. I expect this to go very very wrong in TCG.

Just finished HoC. Cuttle drops a sharper into Corabb's lap. Corabb puts a helm over the sharper which lifts him straight up when it explodes. Fid tells Cuttle that he got too cute. Later, when Leoman is trying to send messangers to Shaik, they keep getting killed so he sends Corabb. He gets struck by quarrels that lodge into the lance on his back with a timing too lucky to be natural.

Abyss, on 19 November 2010 - 06:47 PM, said:

THE ABYSS - is a devastatingly cute, witty, clever Canadian with a propensity for referring to himself in the third person...

That's a niggling point that keeps bothering me...

[Ulrik]

Thel Akai, on 19 November 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 November 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

BUT it wasn't just one or two T'lan Imass that were hunting them all. They were being hunted by entire clans. potentially dozens or hundreds of undead warriors that weren't bothered by ice or cold coming after solitary Jaghuts.

More like tens of thousands I thought.

More like hundreds of thousands...it was whole race:)

[Soulessdreamer]

Shinrei, on 17 November 2010 - 12:56 PM, said:

The context for this topic creation is the fact I'm doing a full re-read at the moment.

Why does Whiskeyjack constantly refuse healing of his damn knee? That "oh, when we have time" BS never made any logical sense. It smells to high heaven of a plot device simply designed to create a sort of what-a-waste-pathos and not meant to have a logical explanation, which is piss-poor writing IMO. I find myself disbelieving that Erikson didn't have something else in mind and I'm just too dumb to see it. It's the primary reason I choose DHG as my favorite book over MOI, since I find that whole Whiskeyjack/Kallor scenario to be forced. Yes, Pormqual was a plot device too, but was more believable somehow.

Studies have shown that the leading cause of death in men is a refuseal to seek medical treatment in a timely fashion.

TTFN

[Thel Akai]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 20 November 2010 - 12:13 AM, said:

Thel Akai, on 19 November 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 November 2010 - 04:39 PM, said:

BUT it wasn't just one or two T'lan Imass that were hunting them all. They were being hunted by entire clans. potentially dozens or hundreds of undead warriors that weren't bothered by ice or cold coming after solitary Jaghuts.

More like tens of thousands I thought.

Well all in all tens of thousands, I assume if you are scouring the globe to commit genocide you split up a bit to be more efficient.

Ulrik, on 20 November 2010 - 10:35 AM, said:

More like hundreds of thousands...it was whole race:)

Yeah, I meant [up to] tens of thousands at the time as a result of splitting up. In any case it was probably only near the end that there were only groups of dozens or hundreds[1]. My understanding is that they split up in clans, and some of these clans were huge.

[1]
[TtH spoiler]

Spoiler

or when Gothos found himself facing 30 T'lan Imass after a temporary alliance to take out a Tyrant.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Oh, here's a point that keeps bothering me, even though the answer has no bearing on the plot of the books.

Where did humans come from?

At first it seems so clear that they descended from the non-ritualled Imass. Then we find out about the Eres. Then it seems more like Imass. Then we find out they existed at the same time as some Imass and even warred with them. Which is possible from an evolutionary standpoint, but still niggles at me.

I would like a clearer answer on this.

[beru]

the humans come from the the imass who came from the Eres aslo somone else can proably fill the deatails

[Thel Akai]

I always associated the Imass with Neanderthals and the Eres with a slightly hairy version of Erectus. In our world homo sapiens didn't descend from the Neanderthals, but that's still the association I get. On Earth Erectus existed until about 50000 years ago some places in Asia, so the species was still around and co-existed with both sapiens and Neanderthals, even though it was the ancestor (and not even the closest) of both. So I have no problems with how Eres vs. Imass vs. humans is laid out in the Malazan world.

[Illuyankas]

The children of the Imass in the First Ritual of Tellann went on to become both the current human race, and the Imass who performed the Second Ritual when faced with extinction from humanity.

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 17 November 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

#1 - What everyone else said - but I will just add - have faith in SE

I hate you Hetan!!!!!

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 November 2010 - 01:21 PM, said:

Oh, here's a point that keeps bothering me, even though the answer has no bearing on the plot of the books.

Where did humans come from?

At first it seems so clear that they descended from the non-ritualled Imass. Then we find out about the Eres. Then it seems more like Imass. Then we find out they existed at the same time as some Imass and even warred with them. Which is possible from an evolutionary standpoint, but still niggles at me.

I would like a clearer answer on this.

beru, on 22 November 2010 - 01:27 PM, said:

the humans come from the the imass who came from the Eres aslo somone else can proably fill the deatails

Thel Akai, on 22 November 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

I always associated the Imass with Neanderthals and the Eres with a slightly hairy version of Erectus. In our world homo sapiens didn't descend from the Neanderthals, but that's still the association I get. On Earth Erectus existed until about 50000 years ago some places in Asia, so the species was still around and co-existed with both sapiens and Neanderthals, even though it was the ancestor (and not even the closest) of both. So I have no problems with how Eres vs. Imass vs. humans is laid out in the Malazan world.

Illuyankas, on 22 November 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

The children of the Imass in the First Ritual of Tellann went on to become both the current human race, and the Imass who performed the Second Ritual when faced with extinction from humanity.

Of the above i go with Thel's explanation - in the 'real world' erectus and neanderthal were parallel evolutionary streams, if the current more or less accepted science is to be believed. MBF suggests that the eres race were common ancestors to both erectus/humans, and neanderthals/Imass. There may have been crossbreeding as well, but in the end these are two separate races.

I do not think that humans are actually the evolutionary descendents of the Imass, and the Second ritual Imass that Tool summons in DoD would seem to support this theory.

In HoC when the Whirlwind goddess rants about humanity as Kilava's children, she's pretty bugnuts, altho admittedly that sent a large hcunk of forumites, myself included, on a running theory of Onrack and Kilava as a proto-human Adam and Eve for a few years.

- Abyss, goin' all neanderthal on that theory...

[worry]

In our world though, modern humans may very well have descended from Cro Magnon/Neanderthal hybridization. I'm not so sure there are two distinct branches from the Eres, it's not that clean. Which isn't to say that the Whirlwind goddess was right about Kilava and Onrack in particular. She, having been destroyed during the pogrom on the post-ritual human First Empire, may have made a faulty assumption based on the fact that Kilava is a bonecaster soletaken and these particular humans were soletaken/d'ivers. On the other hand, perhaps the humans of the First Empire did have Imass DNA while other humans evolved without the interbreeding. And of course, the time-traveling Eres is having who knows how many weirdo babies throughout time. Also, of course, evolution is gradual, and there's plenty of room between pure Eres and pure Imass for some branching off between so that Imass have word-of-mouth history of a time when the humans formed, but have mythologized it over the generations.

To sum up: I'm not sure at all.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Not much really is nipping at me. I'll give it a go though...

1) The Harllo thing, but i really didn't care in the long run. A 2 year boy has no story and is essentially 30 lbs of needy (or whatever kids weigh at that age)

2) The mules! I want to know, but love that i will have to RAFO (or may never find out either)! Part of me wants to think they are simply Shadowthrone and K'rul looking out for each other's respective human representative, but i don't think it's that easy. And this is something i do want to be wrong about, as a new force or force of old would be kickass. Or, they are simply mules, and its all really Kruppe and Pust doing the crazy things we didn't get to see, but still its cool to be led to believe that its these simple beasts doing whatever it is they are doing!

3) QOD is something else that has been bothering me. I read Abyss' post and really wanna lean in that direction as well in thinking that she may not be the "kind" goddess she has been slightly setup to be (to be fair here, she hasn't really been mentioned enough for me to get a feel at how ICE/SE is setting her up for us). Can't quite remember the scene in RotCG with Kyle, The Crippled God, and herself, and don't have the book at hand, but it seemed there was something not quite right there with her in pulling Kyle away from the CGs pocket warren/island thing. Hmmmm....

4) Something in TBH that ST mentions when cutting QBs strings (right after sending him to Poleil's temple), in reference to "weaving", or rather, "weaver", when referring to Quick Ben. Most likely something i am making waaaayyyy too big of a deal of in my brain, but Jhess hasn't hardly been mentioned at all in this series, outside of a line or three. Possibly one of QBs souls? Or something else entirely? Or nothing at all? Sigh.........

That's about it. Like i said, nothing really nagging at me. Almost done with my reread of TBH (going slow this time around and trying to savor it, yet plenty of shit is still flying well over my head! hehe)! NOK next, or go straight to RG? Trying to do the recommended reading order here.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 23 November 2010 - 12:05 AM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on 22 November 2010 - 03:59 PM, said:

Hetan, on 17 November 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

#1 - What everyone else said - but I will just add - have faith in SE

I hate you Hetan!!!!!

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 November 2010 - 01:21 PM, said:

Oh, here's a point that keeps bothering me, even though the answer has no bearing on the plot of the books.

Where did humans come from?

At first it seems so clear that they descended from the non-ritualled Imass. Then we find out about the Eres. Then it seems more like Imass. Then we find out they existed at the same time as some Imass and even warred with them. Which is possible from an evolutionary standpoint, but still niggles at me.

I would like a clearer answer on this.

beru, on 22 November 2010 - 01:27 PM, said:

the humans come from the the imass who came from the Eres aslo somone else can proably fill the deatails

Thel Akai, on 22 November 2010 - 02:21 PM, said:

I always associated the Imass with Neanderthals and the Eres with a slightly hairy version of Erectus. In our world homo sapiens didn't descend from the Neanderthals, but that's still the association I get. On Earth Erectus existed until about 50000 years ago some places in Asia, so the species was still around and co-existed with both sapiens and Neanderthals, even though it was the ancestor (and not even the closest) of both. So I have no problems with how Eres vs. Imass vs. humans is laid out in the Malazan world.

Illuyankas, on 22 November 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

The children of the Imass in the First Ritual of Tellann went on to become both the current human race, and the Imass who performed the Second Ritual when faced with extinction from humanity.

Of the above i go with Thel's explanation - in the 'real world' erectus and neanderthal were parallel evolutionary streams, if the current more or less accepted science is to be believed. MBF suggests that the eres race were common ancestors to both erectus/humans, and neanderthals/Imass. There may have been crossbreeding as well, but in the end these are two separate races.

I do not think that humans are actually the evolutionary descendents of the Imass, and the Second ritual Imass that Tool summons in DoD would seem to support this theory.

In HoC when the Whirlwind goddess rants about humanity as Kilava's children, she's pretty bugnuts, altho admittedly that sent a large hcunk of forumites, myself included, on a running theory of Onrack and Kilava as a proto-human Adam and Eve for a few years.

- Abyss, goin' all neanderthal on that theory...

Agree completely. After the introduction of the Eres I see humans as the "cultural" descendants of Imass.

[Shinrei]

Quote

"'Yes,' Ganath agreed, 'the Ere'al who were led unto domestication by the Hounds that adopted them. The Eres'al who would one day give rise to the Imass, who would one day give rise to humans.'
'As simple as that?' Hedge asked.
'No, far more complicated,' the Jaghut replied, 'but for our purposes it will suffice.'"

Just found that quote in The Bonehunters.

[ShadowRaven]

Speaking of the T'lann Imass, the Bonecasters are supposed to be really powerful mages, but I don't recall us ever seeing them using magic, other than the soletaken/generic T'lann Imass stuff. Am I just forgetting something or could it be that they lost their sorcerous abilities in the Ritual?

[MTS]

Bonecasters are crazy powerful mages, we just haven't had the opportunity to see them in full force yet. The sorcery battle at Kartool was supposed to have made the Enfilade at Pale look like child's play. Admittedly, that was Olar Ethil, but still.

[Roldom]

the T;lan imass where never used against moon spawn, and that was because they found rake to honourable or something ( cant remember where the quote is)

now olar ethil doesnt seem to me to be the kinda chick who would let rake off because hes a nice guy....and when she was interacting with the malazans, shes got way to big an ego to just pretend shes a normal (albeit uber powerful) bone caster

[MTS]

There's always the consideration that she didn't know if she could defeat Rake. He managed to kill Draconus and put Kilmandaros in an Azath for millenia, and they're both quite powerful. Kilandaros respected him, and Gothos respected him above all others, it's not inconceivable that Olar Ethil would feel the same way. Kilmandaros said that 'his life had purpose' and you can infer from the reception that he got at his 'funeral' that he was someone universally respected and you generally don't fuck with people whom you respect and admire.

And considering Shadowthrone was the one commanding Logros, it's likely that he knew she was more than just a regular Bonecaster, even before he and Cotillion entered the Deadhouse.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Roldom, on 06 December 2010 - 04:13 AM, said:

the T;lan imass where never used against moon spawn, and that was because they found rake to honourable or something ( cant remember where the quote is)

now olar ethil doesnt seem to me to be the kinda chick who would let rake off because hes a nice guy....and when she was interacting with the malazans, shes got way to big an ego to just pretend shes a normal (albeit uber powerful) bone caster

Actually I think the quote you're looking for is about the Crimson Guard. Kellanved commanded the Logros to kill the Crimson Guard, but they wouldn't because of the vow the guardsmen had taken.

As far as I know Rake only came upon the Empire once before Pale, and he withdrew for some reason.