[amphibian]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 August 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

Do they? I think that despite the fact that the 3 Elder Gods doubtless were more powerful than Kallor, I think the strength of all the curses are the same. And since all three have managed to be cursed, and are now defying those curses, it is possible that Kallor is no longer bound by their curses. I'm not saying its absolute knowledge, just a potential effect that I would not be surprised by.

They didn't defy their curses. Draconus was imprisoned by that which he made, Nightchill was betrayed and torn apart by inhuman hands on the battlefield and K'rul was forgotten and sank into obscurity.

But that wasn't death for them - not entirely. They came back because of machinations they put into place to accept and then move on past the completion of the curse - or in K'rul's case a lucky bleeder.

Kallor's curse was to live forever and never ascend. How do you get around that?

[Seras]

Toc the Younger is related to Crust...found that out during the convo between Toc & Envy, talking about Toc Elder working on a ship and getting it on with Crust's sister, +50 awesome points for him.

I had no clue the Keeper was Urko until Apsalar paid him a visit, re-read the bit with Karsa and Torvald washing up on the shore and paying him a visit...damn, can't believe I missed that.

Quick Ben might be soletaken! It all clicked in Reaper's Gale when Hedge asked QB when that nasty beasty was going to come out, but it turns out there were hints all along, like him having a spicy scent around him, which was mentioned in GotM (started re-reading that yesterday). Should've known, especially after DG...

[Sindriss]

worrywort, on 21 August 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

champooon, on 21 August 2010 - 08:22 PM, said:

jst rereading HoC and come across this lil tidbit... which amused us... knowing SE never writes anything for nothing... Torvald Nom talking with Karsa

Quote

"...The gods not only look down on Darujhistan with a protective eye, they probably drink in its taverns"

instantly thought of Kruppe! who knows!

Well, there's Fisher, and some foreshadowing of Lady Envy (or Spite?) finding him. Kruppe's awesome and all, but he's mortal and I don't think anyone worships him.

I always thought it refered to K'rul who is often in the company of Krubbe in various places e.g. the bb old pub

[Furion]

Erayle, on 22 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

Toc the Younger is related to Crust...found that out during the convo between Toc & Envy, talking about Toc Elder working on a ship and getting it on with Crust's sister, +50 awesome points for him.

I had no clue the Keeper was Urko until Apsalar paid him a visit, re-read the bit with Karsa and Torvald washing up on the shore and paying him a visit...damn, can't believe I missed that.

Quick Ben might be soletaken! It all clicked in Reaper's Gale when Hedge asked QB when that nasty beasty was going to come out, but it turns out there were hints all along, like him having a spicy scent around him, which was mentioned in GotM (started re-reading that yesterday). Should've known, especially after DG...

What beast do you think he would become? Maybe he's d'ivers?

Or maybe he is some sort of reverse human d'ivers, judging by his being a sum of multiple souls?

If I had to choose a beast, I'd have to go with a pack of wolves, or a swarm of locusts.

[worry]

Just a thought, but it makes more sense that QB did not go with Kalam and Fiddler on the 7 Cities mission, as it means QB didn't get sucked into the whole Path of Hands debacle. I doubt there's any textual mention of it, and it may not have been prominent in SE's mind (but who knows), but it was Iskaral Pust, minion of Shadowthrone, who tricked all the soletaken and d'ivers into that trap.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

amphibian, on 22 August 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 August 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

Do they? I think that despite the fact that the 3 Elder Gods doubtless were more powerful than Kallor, I think the strength of all the curses are the same. And since all three have managed to be cursed, and are now defying those curses, it is possible that Kallor is no longer bound by their curses. I'm not saying its absolute knowledge, just a potential effect that I would not be surprised by.

They didn't defy their curses. Draconus was imprisoned by that which he made, Nightchill was betrayed and torn apart by inhuman hands on the battlefield and K'rul was forgotten and sank into obscurity.

But that wasn't death for them - not entirely. They came back because of machinations they put into place to accept and then move on past the completion of the curse - or in K'rul's case a lucky bleeder.

Kallor's curse was to live forever and never ascend. How do you get around that?

I'll grant you that SoCN's curse seems fulfilled, and she was only able to return because being torn apart doesn't necessarily kill an EG. But K'rul's was to be forgotten and sink into obscurity. Kallor doesn't add 'for awhile' on the end of that. So what is the difference between that and Kallor's curse of 'you will never ascend'...for awhile?

Again, I'm not saying this is definite, it's just a theory (though I think a plausible one). There isn't really any textual evidence you can use in this circumstance, because the only example of cursing we see in the books is with Kallor. That's why I'm not sure how you can be so confident that you are incontrovertibly right.

[amphibian]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 August 2010 - 07:32 AM, said:

I'll grant you that SoCN's curse seems fulfilled, and she was only able to return because being torn apart doesn't necessarily kill an EG. But K'rul's was to be forgotten and sink into obscurity. Kallor doesn't add 'for awhile' on the end of that. So what is the difference between that and Kallor's curse of 'you will never ascend'...for awhile?

Again, I'm not saying this is definite, it's just a theory (though I think a plausible one). There isn't really any textual evidence you can use in this circumstance, because the only example of cursing we see in the books is with Kallor. That's why I'm not sure how you can be so confident that you are incontrovertibly right.

I'm not sure I am incontrovertibly right. To be so about as yet unpublished books that Steven Erikson writes would be foolhardy. The man surprises.

However, the language of Kallor's curse did not impose eternity upon K'rul's sojourn into obscurity. It said that he would be forgotten and obscure - without saying that it was a permanent condition. The Elder Gods' curse did say "never ascend" - which implies a permanent condition.

It may be possible that the Elder Gods release their curse upon Kallor, as a gesture of forgiveness. But Kallor's working for the Crippled God now - and killed Whiskeyjack. He's probably not getting anything from anyone besides The Redeemer at this point.

[Excellence]

Reread Bonehunters after Dust of Dreams...

I'm realising a lot of setup in book 6 for book 9. Oh he's a sneaky so and so.

Iskar Jarak and the Annibar.
Ruthan Gudd was also acting "mysteriously"

This post has been edited by Excellence: 23 August 2010 - 11:39 AM

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 August 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

amphibian, on 21 August 2010 - 10:47 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 21 August 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

Actually this makes me think of Kallor at the end of TtH lol. With the return of Draconus maybe his curse is finally ended and he can finally ascend.

Because the curses of Kallor have come to pass does not denote that the combined curse of Nightchill, Draconus and K'rul has lifted from Kallor. The three still exist, albeit much changed from the time the curse was given.

Do they? I think that despite the fact that the 3 Elder Gods doubtless were more powerful than Kallor, I think the strength of all the curses are the same. And since all three have managed to be cursed, and are now defying those curses, it is possible that Kallor is no longer bound by their curses. I'm not saying its absolute knowledge, just a potential effect that I would not be surprised by.

The point is that all the curses happened as cursed, but all the targets have since found ways around the end results. krul faded, but he got better. Drac was imprisoned, but he got sprung. SisCo was in fact ripped to shreds but lives on inside Silverfox and Kallor has never ascended but he's gained power other ways.

amphibian, on 22 August 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 22 August 2010 - 12:03 AM, said:

Do they? I think that despite the fact that the 3 Elder Gods doubtless were more powerful than Kallor, I think the strength of all the curses are the same. And since all three have managed to be cursed, and are now defying those curses, it is possible that Kallor is no longer bound by their curses. I'm not saying its absolute knowledge, just a potential effect that I would not be surprised by.

They didn't defy their curses. Draconus was imprisoned by that which he made, Nightchill was betrayed and torn apart by inhuman hands on the battlefield and K'rul was forgotten and sank into obscurity.

But that wasn't death for them - not entirely. They came back because of machinations they put into place to accept and then move on past the completion of the curse - or in K'rul's case a lucky bleeder.

Kallor's curse was to live forever and never ascend. How do you get around that?

He doesn't, but since you need not be an ascendent to have power, he's still a player.

Erayle, on 22 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

Toc the Younger is related to Crust...found that out during the convo between Toc & Envy, talking about Toc Elder working on a ship and getting it on with Crust's sister, +50 awesome points for him.

I had no clue the Keeper was Urko until Apsalar paid him a visit, re-read the bit with Karsa and Torvald washing up on the shore and paying him a visit...damn, can't believe I missed that.

Quick Ben might be soletaken! It all clicked in Reaper's Gale when Hedge asked QB when that nasty beasty was going to come out, but it turns out there were hints all along, like him having a spicy scent around him, which was mentioned in GotM (started re-reading that yesterday). Should've known, especially after DG...

we've never seen a ref to Toc TY having Napan blood (blue skin), so it's possible, but not necessarily the case.

As for QB, there was also the hint in MoI when the Tennes Witch calls him a 'desert snake', leading to speculation his form is a snake. Or maybe a beige dragon, who knows...?

Sindriss, on 22 August 2010 - 05:07 AM, said:

worrywort, on 21 August 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

champooon, on 21 August 2010 - 08:22 PM, said:

jst rereading HoC and come across this lil tidbit... which amused us... knowing SE never writes anything for nothing... Torvald Nom talking with Karsa

Quote

"...The gods not only look down on Darujhistan with a protective eye, they probably drink in its taverns"

instantly thought of Kruppe! who knows!

Well, there's Fisher, and some foreshadowing of Lady Envy (or Spite?) finding him. Kruppe's awesome and all, but he's mortal and I don't think anyone worships him.

I always thought it refered to K'rul who is often in the company of Krubbe in various places e.g. the bb old pub

Agreed. TtH prologue, Krul is hanging out, having a drink with Fisher and Kruppe, iirc.

[End of Disc One]

Quote

SisCo was in fact ripped to shreds but lives on inside Silverfox

Silverfox let him see that thong

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I thought it was a given that Toc Younger was related to Crust after Toc starts telling that story about how Crust's sister got knocked up and Toc Elder waited days before stepping up because Crust was so.... Crusty. >.>

Edit: My quote fu is weak, but I remember the scene because it made me snort. Toc is eiitherrr talking to Envy or someone of that ilk on his journeys about his origins to break up some heavy talk.

This post has been edited by Hellian's Keg Lid: 24 August 2010 - 09:27 PM

[champ]

Abyss, on 24 August 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

Erayle, on 22 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

Toc the Younger is related to Crust...found that out during the convo between Toc & Envy, talking about Toc Elder working on a ship and getting it on with Crust's sister, +50 awesome points for him.

we've never seen a ref to Toc TY having Napan blood (blue skin), so it's possible, but not necessarily the case.

Hellian, on 24 August 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

I thought it was a given that Toc Younger was related to Crust after Toc starts telling that story about how Crust's sister got knocked up and Toc Elder waited days before stepping up because Crust was so.... Crusty. >.>

Edit: My quote fu is weak, but I remember the scene because it made me snort. Toc is eiitherrr talking to Envy or someone of that ilk on his journeys about his origins to break up some heavy talk.

I read it not long ago, know where it is...

Quote

"Come along, Envy. I'll bore you with a detailed recounting of my youth - it'll pass the time. I was born on a ship, you know, and it was more than a few days before Toc the Elder stepped forward to acknowledge his fatherhood - my mother was Captain Cartheron Crust's sister, you see, and Crust had a temper..."

This post has been edited by champooon: 24 August 2010 - 09:49 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Erayle, on 22 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

Quick Ben might be soletaken! It all clicked in Reaper's Gale when Hedge asked QB when that nasty beasty was going to come out, but it turns out there were hints all along, like him having a spicy scent around him, which was mentioned in GotM (started re-reading that yesterday). Should've known, especially after DG...

When QB reveals his identity to Shadowthrone in GotM, ST calls him a "shape-shifting bastard!" Doesn't necessarily mean he's Soletaken, but that line alone makes for some interesting discussion.

[worry]

Just like real life, blue skin is probably a recessive gene.

[Abyss]

champooon, on 24 August 2010 - 09:40 PM, said:

...
I read it not long ago, know where it is...

Quote

"Come along, Envy. I'll bore you with a detailed recounting of my youth - it'll pass the time. I was born on a ship, you know, and it was more than a few days before Toc the Elder stepped forward to acknowledge his fatherhood - my mother was Captain Cartheron Crust's sister, you see, and Crust had a temper..."

That nails it. Quote fu rep'd accordingly.

Unless of course ToctE was lying....


- Abyss, denies paternity in all cases.

[Excellence]

Toc wouldn't lie. How dare you insinuate. He's one of the series coolest characters.

[champ]

again, something that hasn't really crossed my mind whilst reading it before...

HoC - the chained and possessed Theloman Toblakai in the well where the Ashok regiment are hiding, that Kalam then stabs releasing the demon possessing it, it switches bodies with an enkar'al and the enkar'al's soul goes into the Theloman Toblakai

Quote

Rage and terror. Unanswered, except by the promise of eternity.
Or so it would have remained.
Had the Beast Thrones stayed unoccupied.
Had not the reawakened wolf gods known an urgent need... for a champion.
...
Besides, this champion would taste blood... and soon

Another bad ass soon to be unveiled again?

Super duper speculation 1% chance of been true

How sweet would it be if it turned out to be Ublala Pung since he has the brains of an enkar'al and he does inherit armour from 7C Toblakai

Quote

"The ghost says there's a name for that armour," said Harlest, "even as the mace is named. First Heroes were wont to such affectations. This particular one, a Thelomen, haled from a region bordering the First Empire – in a land very distant – the same land the first Letherii came from, in fact. A belligerent bastard – his name is forgotten and best left that way. Take that armour, and the mace."

or at least the armour he get's could of at least come from this chained dude...

This post has been edited by champooon: 30 August 2010 - 04:51 PM

[worry]

That would be pretty sweet.

[BridgeBurner]

Abyss, on 24 August 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

As for QB, there was also the hint in MoI when the Tennes Witch calls him a 'desert snake', leading to speculation his form is a snake. Or maybe a beige dragon, who knows...?

And another hint in TBH suggesting the same.

[Abyss]

champooon, on 30 August 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:

again, something that hasn't really crossed my mind whilst reading it before...

HoC - the chained and possessed Theloman Toblakai ...

How sweet would it be if it turned out to be Ublala Pung since he has the brains of an enkar'al and he does inherit armour from 7C Toblakai...

Nah, the timeline.... umm... i mean, the relative heights... uhh... that is... it was a different conti... err... SE said... nope... crap.
Okay it's a totally valid crazy theory.

- Abyss, knows when he's beaten.