Malazan Empire: From Steven Erikson - with gratitude to you all. - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 6 Pages +
  • « First
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

From Steven Erikson - with gratitude to you all.

#81 User is offline   Mcflury 

  • First Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 561
  • Joined: 15-September 07
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Reading, writing, partying, playing PC-games (mainly MMO's) and many more.

Posted 20 August 2010 - 10:28 PM

Mr Erikson, I have no idea if you'll ever read this, and I hope you will, but I would like to thank you for everything. Your books have been a part of my life for longer than I can remember (probably about 40% of my entire life) and as a result I grew a lot with your series.

I don't know how to describe my feelings about this series, my gratitude for what you have done, but I think it is best summed up as this: you taught me different ways to look at life and you helped me grow into a more emotional, bigger person.

I have read a great many books in my life, and of course I will read a great many more, but your books are the first, and the only ones up to now, that have ever succeeded in making me cry.
I cried out of happiness, sadness, madness or out of any other reason one could cry. After reading Deadhouse Gates I was empty on the inside for weeks, just because of what happened in that book. I wasn't even emotionally touched that much by the death of my own grandparents (then again, I hardly knew them). You have helped me discover emotions of which I wasn't even sure I had them, and you taught me how to handle them. In a way, you taught me how to love (I sort of started sharing Anomander's love for everything and everyone, in a less epic way of course).

I'm still hoping that one day we'll meet eachother in real life so that perhaps I can show you some of my gratitude in real life (probably one look at my face will tell you more than all of the above words) but I wanted to use this forum to already thank you a little bit :)
So I want to thank you for every salty tear I shed, every giggle I uttered and for evey word, no, letter I read written by your hand.

PS: I always wanted to become a writer, you are my role-model on that part because I wish my stories would have only half as much depth as your books. Thank you for giving me yet another opportunity to rise above myself. One day I will surely be big enough to reach your ankles :D (and if not, at least I tried :p )

And just because it actually was the best finisher to my complete post, but I just had to go and keeping thankiing you after it, I'll write it again here:
Thank you for teaching me how to love!
"There is no struggle too vast no odds too overwhelming for even should we fail, should we fall, we will know that we have lived" - Anomander Rake
(From Toll the Hounds by Steven Erikson)
1

#82 User is offline   George Sengar 

  • Private Fiddler
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 21-August 10
  • Interests:Reading, playing World of Warcraft, snooker, modded cars.

Posted 21 August 2010 - 07:41 PM

I met you at one of your many book signings 2 years ago, you signed my book and I shook your hand and thanked you, not just for the signature but for writing these books that I have enjoyed so much over the last few years. I am so glad I had the opportunity to do that in person but when I said it you didn't seem to want to hear it, as if it was too much for you. So I guess you don't want to hear it again.

So, thank you Steve. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

For all the beauty and depth, gore, glory and mayhem, all the nuances and feints, the magic and the brutality; Thank You!

Never doubt the power of your writing Steve, I have no doubt that your books will reach the heights they deserve in the FF genre. The pinnacle even. They ARE the benchmark for FF writers the world over, even if the aforementioned do not know it yet.

I wish you good luck in every aspect of your life, you deserve it and much more. Enjoy a well earned rest of your life. =D We're still going to be waiting with baited breath with each new book so keep 'em coming mate. We love you.

George Sengar
(no, no relation)
0

#83 User is offline   Defiance 

  • Vicariously I live while the whole world dies
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,472
  • Joined: 24-December 09
  • Location:IA
  • Interests:Malazan, RPGs, writing

Posted 24 August 2010 - 04:00 AM

Just saw this, and wow. It's really just hit me that The Crippled God is going to be the end. Sure, there will be more books set in the Malazan world, sure there will be rereads...but nothing's ever the same once you know the ending. Will rereads still be amazing and continue to blow my mind? For sure.

I've had the time of my life reading these books. For me, the joy has been in the journey, not the destination. As Stephen King says, endings are heartless; ending is just another word for goodbye.

I think the saddest part of this for me is that I don't think I'll ever find a series as captivating and intriguing as this one. I don't think I'm ever going to find a book that makes me stay up all night to finish the last 400 pages. Hats off to you, Mr. Erikson.

And there I go getting all worked up about this.
uhm, that should be 'stuff.' My stiff is never nihilistic.
~Steven Erikson


Mythwood: Play-by-post RP board.
1

#84 User is online   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 14,688
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:20 AM

Haha, that "stay up all night to finish the last 400 pages" line hits a little too close to home. I mean, I did do that full no-breaks read of Deathly Hallows, and I do routinely stay up to finish novels when I'm near the end, but every single Malazan book takes this to the extreme...staying up to read hundreds of pages, like the entire final sub-book in each one.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
0

#85 User is offline   Malazan Claw 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 8
  • Joined: 05-March 10

Posted 25 August 2010 - 04:43 PM

I've never been able to read books before due to my poor concentration, I bought Gardens of the Moon around five years before reading it, (I got it I think because the cover was colourful, yes I was young). I read the first page of Gardens of the Moon atleast 20 times due to getting distracted. The book always seemed to go with me everywhere, yet I never could read it.

I finally went to university and promised myself that i would read the battered yet still colourful book on my shelf. Thankfully I did just that and once I got into the book, especially towards the end, I was completely captivated. For someone who finds it almost impossible to read books it was pretty impressive that a one could capture and hold my attention like it did. When I finished, all I wanted was to read the next one. I think I made my first post on this site around this time, which is unlike me but further proves how much I enjoyed the read. I have recently finished Dust of Dreams and I'am counting the days until I receive my copy of tCG.

Guess I was just trying to say thank you for making me realise what i've been missing (reading books, especially tMBOTF).
0

#86 User is offline   Deragoth 

  • Lieutenant
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 104
  • Joined: 29-May 07

Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:44 PM

Thank you for Beak.

Sincerely,

TPB.
1

#87 User is offline   Dodger 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 16
  • Joined: 14-June 10
  • Location:U.K.
  • Interests:Motorcycles.reading,tattoo's+love big dogs :)

Posted 27 August 2010 - 04:44 PM

View PostD, on 30 July 2010 - 04:32 PM, said:

View PostHetan, on 30 July 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

I've since joked that my next project is a twenty-four volume saga set in the same world, chronicling the life of a character from birth to seven years of age, whereupon said character is jailed for being a career criminal.  Called The Malazan Book of the Felon.  Flippancy can be a useful defense mechanism, for a while, but eventually the silence returns.  


Hey, that sounds fun! You could use the Malazan Book of the Felon to twist around all the crime/suspense novel cliches! And then a sci-fi series, and then a teen romance series, and then a self-help book...


View PostHetan, on 30 July 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

So, I have already begun my wait.  To see what you think.  What you feel.  To see all that you take from these books, and to see what you will make of them.  Forgive me if I stay in the shadows.  But this is now yours, not mine.  And that is as it should be.


I like the notion that you're now waiting in as much anticipation as we are, Steve! I know we won't be disappointed with tCG and I believe you won't be disappointed with our "fan authority" afterwards, either!


Cheers, Steve, we've got just as much gratitude for you on this side!

wanna be a sapper and get to blow shit up like fiddler
0

#88 User is offline   Old Hunch Arbat 

  • Fist
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 210
  • Joined: 07-May 06

Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:16 AM

Steven, I'm sure you are, as you say, lurking...so I thought I'd share a little West Coast "moment" with you.

I spend 2-4 weeks of each summer camping on Hornby Island with my family, and have been doing so, first as a child and then as a parent, since 1958. I was desperate to get hold of Toll The Hounds before I left for my annual vacation...whenever that was (old age creeps in on stocking feet...). Did you know that Amazon.co.uk (always releases before Amazon.com) can get a book delivered directly to your campsite on one of the smaller Gulf Islands in just 3 days?! I paid more for the postage than I did for the book but it *made* my vacation, along with the barnacle cuts, the sunburn and the family.

Thank you for the thought provoking and infinitely entertaining books - and thanks to Cam as well.

I bet you can't stay away from the writing though...

OHA
0

#89 User is offline   Quick~ 

  • Fist
  • Group: Malazan Artist
  • Posts: 257
  • Joined: 16-January 08

Posted 28 August 2010 - 03:01 PM

Dear Steve,

Thank you for everything, it has been a wonderful journey. I hope that you've had as much enjoyment telling the tale as we all have from reading it.

regards,

Quick~

(p.s. heard rumours about a Tufty spin-off series, Malazan book of the feline?)
0

#90 User is offline   IamBottle 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 23-October 08

Posted 28 August 2010 - 09:51 PM

I still remember the first time I looked at GOTM in Avon, Indiana on July, 16, 2005. How (and why) do I remember this? Because I saved the receipt. I look at it often, actually, to remind me just how far I and this series have come, and how much it's meant to all the people that have read it. I always enjoy talking to friends who like SF & F but who've never heard of the Malazan series. I always smile a little on the inside at the fact that while I want the series to be a household name that everyone associates with the genre, I enjoy being in a select group of people who've had the privilege to read, share, discuss and debate in detail the greatest fantasy series in our generation.

For so long, I looked at Glen Cook's Black Company books and said 'Geez, these have some of the most complex, continent-spanning stories I've ever read; if someone ever decided to fill in the gaps those books would be absolutely perfect, and like 500 pages.' Let me explain what I mean by this. Glen Cook's stories, in my opinion, were great at showing the muck and grime of the soldier's lives (as is well known and documented), but Mr. Cook didn't go into great detail about what actually happened in battles and over the years. For example, epic battles might be summarized in a few pages, and Croaker and the gang would travel great distances in only a few paragraphs. In the Dread Empire series, Bragi Ragnarson orders armies of men about and orchestrates campaigns that the audience only gets to see snippets of. I thoroughly enjoyed this because so much happened in a modest amount of pages, but the books focused on the macro-level sometimes.

So, in short, I was looking for Glen Cook meets George RR Martin. Though some may respectfully disagree with me, that's exactly what I found in the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

97 percent of the characters all have back-stories; detailed, in-depth and complex back-stories. Stop and think about just how many characters there are in this series. And each one is as well thought-out as most main characters in other novels. Though its already been said, it's true that every city, ruin, bridge, tree, object and person, is explored so thoroughly that by the end of the story you have a complete picture of who that person is (although many back stories are cleverly hidden until the time is right--for just the right amount of mystery). For my money, though the story is epic on a scale that I've never seen before, it's the characters that make this series so enduring. How can you care about a character unless you know where they come from, what they care about, what they disdain, and what they love? And Steven Erikson has given us some of the best, most admirable, and most deplorable characters ever. Think it's easy to run an army, look at Adjunct Tavore. Think its easy to kill a man and not be the same, look at Crokus. Think it's easy to defy destiny, look at Karsa Orlong. I could go on and on, but this is truly why the Malazan series just can't be topped. When gods, whose motivations and flaws stretch back eons, clash with mortals who will stop at nothing to survive, how can you help but read?

And that's also why I laugh when I read so many negative reviews of the series from people who complain that they couldn't follow it because there were too many characters or place names, or that the series was too slow, or didn't answer their questions all in one book. I laugh because that's precisely why we love this series. We haven't been spoon-fed the answers, we've had to figure them out for ourselves, had to track the plots of gods and men and see the worst and best of them both. People nowadays want their heroes complex, but few in number, strong, but flawed, and only the Malazan series has given us heroes, villains, and those shades of gray in between like none other.

And for that I truly thank Steven Erikson. He didn't re-invent the Sword and Sorcery genre, but he took it to a depth and a realism that no one has done before or since. Only a great man can take a story that spans millenia, with a cast of hundreds, and craft it so well, so quickly and with such dedication to the people that read it. Imagine him, thanking us, and the humility it takes to do that. He did the work, and we just sat back and enjoyed a ride that spanned more than a decade in our world, but a thousand lifetimes in his. Thank you for the ride.
4

#91 User is offline   Xerobull 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 28-July 10

Posted 29 August 2010 - 06:39 PM

Can't say anything that hasn't already been said.

Enjoy your time off, you prolific so-and-so.

-X
0

#92 User is offline   cauthon 

  • Geek in progress
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 603
  • Joined: 17-July 02
  • Location:Here
  • Interests:photography, fantasy
  • .6180339887

Posted 29 August 2010 - 10:26 PM

In some ways, coming to a closing, is a thing I dread. It has been thus with every series or epic tale I read. Starting with Dune, The Lord of the Rings, etc., or even with BSG (the new series) I always dreaded the last pages, for then I would know. Sometimes, I postponed reading them, even when I reread the book, knowing full well what was to come, but in doing so, telling myself that it was not over yet, there was still something to come. That the story would continue. Ever since I was a child, I've been bad at goodbyes, often ending in tears. I fear that it will be no different this time. And while it was 30 years of your life, it will have been almost 11 years of mine that I have lived with this tale, reading and rereading, lurking to see what the people here thought, as they often uncovered gems -- intended, false or even sometimes, true (hindsight is 20/20). So, allow me to thank you for the ride, it has been a fantastic one. But do not blame me for postponing to read those few precious last words you put down to paper; I will get there in my own time.

Thank you. Stay here for a while longer. And keep amazing us with new, other, and different work.
1

#93 User is offline   Blaise Trinity 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 19-February 10
  • Location:Scotland
  • Interests:Reading, Computing, Music

  Posted 30 August 2010 - 09:49 AM

Together with everyone here I have found what seems to be endless hours of enjoyment within the pages of the Malazan books. :p

The only sad part is that they are coming to an end and this is one of the very few series that I have dreaded this happening to.:p

However, these books will stay a part of my ever-growing library (together with Lord of the Rings and Terry Pratchetts discworld books) so that I might rediscover them again and again.

Thank you Steven Erikson for such pleasure and enjoyment.
:p
0

#94 User is offline   Cougar 

  • D'ivers Fuckwits
  • View gallery
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 3,028
  • Joined: 13-November 06
  • Location:Lincoln, Lincolnshire, UK.

Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:49 AM

I will chime in:

I've been a massive critic of SE as writer, Mal and Hetan both get my rants every time I'm down at their house, but it's only cos I love the series.

For me, as a historian - and I think most of the time I am - it's the world building that I love the most, nobody does it like SE. Moreover, the fact that he approaches his world, not from the godlike, all knowing perspective, but as someone who is writing about something he's observing from in world is a really daring thing to do in a genre where people more than any other crave total explanations of the history of the universe and clarification of everythin. I know the uncertainty of the history of the races and places in Malazan absolutely kills some of you, I know that you want to know everything that has gone before with clarity and without ambiguity, but for me that is such an accurate reflection of how the past really is - tangential, unknowable and devoid of objective truth - it really chimes with something in my soul.

He might never get the recognition of a LotR, but then again if he ever wrote a Malaz-arillion, I'd be gutted.

and Tehol, I fucking love Tehol.
I AM A TWAT
1

#95 User is offline   Sanctume 

  • Lieutenant
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 07-July 09
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA
  • Interests:Reading

Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:03 PM

I remember that emotion of reading some finale of a book series. Lord of the Rings was one, and the other was DragonLance.
It was a feeling of emptiness in the gut, a sense of grieving. Yes, that must be it--grieving and there's a whole psychology and sociology about it.

Some denial, then anger, then acceptance, and eventually joy. Having these range of emotions resulting from reading a book; I would say makes the author great in his skills to tell stories that I can relate to and even care about. That is a great value in my time reading, and something worth giving gratitude to such authors.

All other measures made and defined by the business is one thing. But there is also great worth from the measurements of fellow readers, one of them me, to say my time and experience reading the Malazan Book of the Fallen was worthwhile.

Thanks you, Steven Erickson for putting into the words the excitement of your worlds and gaming imaginations.
0

#96 User is offline   Quick Bill 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 51
  • Joined: 07-January 10
  • Location:St. John's, Newfoundland
  • Interests:Philosophy, Growing Food, Cooking Food, Eating Food, Anything with Food, Partying, Camping, Fishing, Hiking, Wandering the Streets, Writing, Reading (Fantasy and otherwise).
  • I am obsessed with the MBoTF. How about you?

Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:21 PM

Well well, this series has indeed been a thrill to read. The most fun was not always reading it, but calling one of my best friends and yelling "I can't believe that just happened." The mark of any good fantasy writing, in my humble opinion, is the traction it provides for discussion, speculation, and maniacally rubbing your hands together just as you know something sick is going to happen. This series has provided all of these in spades. Many nights yelling with my buddies about what was going to happen, or what has happened: I couldn't ask for more.

I have no doubt that ascension is the only next step for Steven. Like Kellanved, his adventures may have left him a little insane, a little out of place, but I have no doubt that this death, this end, will bring new potentials, and new trajectories. Thank you Steven, thank you.
"To have dismantled love in order to become capable of loving. To have dismantled one's self in order finally to be alone and meet the true double at the other end of the line. A clandestine passenger on a motionless voyage."
Deleuze and Guattari, Thousand Plateaus p 197
0

#97 User is offline   Shadow_Dancer 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: 30-August 10

Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:56 PM

Again, as everyone has said, this is an incredible set of books with a vast and rich world for which I am utterly grateful.

Additionally, as someone who is also a reader of both WoT and aSoIaF may I just add, as trivial as it may seem, a huge thankyou for the swift and punctual book releases. You have literally no idea how endearing it is for an author to be so considerate and reliable
0

#98 User is offline   ShadowRaven 

  • Lieutenant
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 121
  • Joined: 15-June 10

Posted 03 September 2010 - 04:42 AM

I've always enjoyed reading fantasy, and long series in particular, so starting a new one with so many others already ongoing is always a big decision for me. However, I've never been happier about doing so than the day I picked up Gardens of the Moon as a curiosity. I've read the 'big names' of fantasy (some more than once) like Tolkien, Martin, Hobb, Jordan, etc. but the Malazan series felt like something different - and far better - than all the others. Somehow, I felt far more tied to the characters, philosophy, and events than with anything before. There are so many aspects that make your books unique: the world building, the great characters, the events that constantly surprise you, the fact that these book made me question what true evil is, and the list goes on.

These books have given me so much on so many levels that I don't think I can do them justice with my words. As a series they work so well that I'd list the entire series as my 'favourite book', not just a single one of them. I have also appreciated your approach of not force-feeding the answers on the reader immensely, but rather letting me discover them for myself. The books are far from easy, in fact they almost demand a reread, but that is why I have developed such an immense respect towards your works in this day and age when so many other (especially fantasy) authors choose the easy road in their writing.

Thank you, Steven, for innumerable memorable moments.


P.S. The only bad thing about your books is that now it will be hard to find a series that can compare and that I could enjoy as much. :)
0

#99 User is offline   High King of Chaos 

  • Recruit
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: 15-August 10

Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:37 PM

I first started reading fantasy 10 years ago my first series was LoTR and i was amazaed and also pleases that i had found a new hobby which gave me such mixed emotions, after LoTR i raid the Hobbit then Silmarilion which i thought was great i would of loved to of seen the tail of the Simarilion told in a full tale with the tale of Hurins line within. My journey had now begun in earnest i sought more like material David Gemmels books as well as Terry Brook entertained me but i was looking for something with more granduer soemoen told me about WoT and so i began reading those, i found them very interesting and in a style of Tolkien but parts where the detail went way over board on the most trivial of things for me ruined what had the making of the finest piece of work ever, im yet to finish that series being on book 10. My journey has lead me to read just about every critically aclaimed author in the fantasy genre who write series triliogies and novels, i was constantly searching for soemthing that could keep me as entertained as LoRT and his Quenya (Tenwar for Elves) during the start of which is now my number one hooby i actually came across GoTM and i really could not get to grips which Eriksons style - how he throws you into the thick of it with little no none explenation or so it appeared to me at that time but i found dissapointment after dissapointment it was only know and then i found something which was to a liking to that which i was seeking and i think was this is a perfect example of what Rugby Leauger said - i am one of these fans Rugby after reading LoTr i chewed on the appendices then the Hobbit then Simlarilion then i bought the 10 books which break the whole story down and give detailed history of the making of the story written by his son i bought an a-z of Middle Earth (which had a very nice world size map : ) and so i just could not picture what was going on and sadly after two attempts i gave up : ( It was not long before i exhausted my local shops fantasy supply and one day i accidentaly picked up Midnight Tides without making a link of the authors name to GoTM and i read the Prolouge and i was like O.M.G this is it ! This is the one ! this is what ive been looking for, High magic, Battle mages, alien races, immortal accandants battling with each other, large scale battles. So i wgrabbed a copy of GoTM and my malazan journey began, and of course Whiskeyjack Quick-Ben and Kalam had me hooked in no time and by the time i had read MoI i realized that Eriksons style of not giving a full account of the worlds history the history of the many Pantheons and the series many accendants immortals Elder Gods and Races which kept me captivated as i was hungry to learn more but enjouying the plots and being thrilled as i immursed my self in his world. In my oppinion this series is without equal this series arriving in the world of Fantasyseries is like seeing the X-games become part of the Olympic serries. With regards to the end of the series im not that sad to be honest as there are still 4 more books to come from ICE and im confident by time the last of those has been released we shall not have too long to wait untill we see something from Erikson - I would like to say something now which i know will be recieved with mixed oppinions- I for one was vedry pleased with the movie adaption to LoTR i honestly felt the done Toliens series proud and im looking forward to the 2 film which involves the tale of the Hobbit some time this or maybee next year,. Saying that i would love to see these books made into a film and for all those who say it cant be done well the magic scenes of Harry Potter the large scale Battle scenes and the cgi of Gollum, Orcs, Trolls Shellob the fell beast and the background work of 300 i say it can be done but if it was going to be attempted then to do it with any less of that to equal the dedication to the making of the LoTR would be a crime and i for one would be horrified - The Sword of Truth series wasnt great infact i found it predictable but they have ruined it even more so with the series. To Erikson and ICE i would like to take this chance to say that Fantasy has had a big impact upon my life and series that you have bought to us has changed my life in a litteral way it has opened my mind to many things it has added to my charecter i am a differant person for the reading of this series - you both hold i your hand a gift to be capable fo having such an impact on peoples lives to bring to them a ray of light on a grey dull day. I was in prison serving a 3 year sentance when i first picked up that GoTM i was expelled from school at the age of 14 for suply of class a drugs and serving 2 years by the age of 15 my education is prety much self taught, i have always had an interest in how things work or how things came to be history and Geogpraphy and the like, i can say to you all without doubt reading fantasy has been instrumental in changing my life for the better ive not returned to jail since that first time i picked up GotM and i have no doubts that this series has had such an impact on my life that i think i owe this author a BIG THANK YOU
0

#100 User is offline   beru 

  • shy guy
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 780
  • Joined: 14-December 08
  • Location:norway
  • Interests:gaming (strategy/tactic first persons)<br />reading<br />swiming

Posted 03 September 2010 - 02:09 PM

enter is a fine key...


also, i have to join the crowd that sayes that this is the best fantasy books they have read, and that they are now ruind for life beacuse everything else seems bland and/or short by comparison
i want to see this world where T'lan imass kneels
0

Share this topic:


  • 6 Pages +
  • « First
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

6 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 6 guests, 0 anonymous users