[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Oops. I meant TDT, not TDK.

[Harvester]

Quote

Auditions continue in Dublin, Belfast, and London for a whole bunch of parts, both major and minor, on HBO's GAME OF THRONES.

Sometimes it is a very hard job.

I've just reviewed the tapes of twelve young women reading for the part of Shae.

Excuse me. I need to go take a cold shower now.
Mood: horny

-GRRM, from his blog

And we all know what he looked like while posting this entry... Arrrr. (No offense meant, of course. )

BEWARE: Sweaty and hairy old meat.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 20 June 2010 - 10:44 AM

[End of Disc One]

^People are probably going to take offense but I laughed so fucking hard.

[lobo the wolfman]

Harvester that is so wrong, funny but wrong.

[Harvester]

Of course it's wrong and not meant to be taken seriously. Wait a sec, I'll use a hyperlink instead.

[acesn8s]

As I sat at my desk reading Return of the Crimson Guard, during lunch, something funny occurred to me. What are everyone’s thoughts on the idea that Martin is not fulfilling his implied contract with the readers of ASoFaI by not finishing the series in a timely fashion; yet, in order to get a complete view of the Malazan story we need to buy not just the 10 books in TMBotF, but also Esslemont’s novels if not Erickson’s standalone books as well.

While yes, you are getting material to read is anyone upset about the extra money you had to spend to read the books outside of the MBotF series?

If you are upset, how does it compare with the wait for Dance of Dragons?

[Salt-Man Z]

acesn8s, on 24 June 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

in order to get a complete view of the Malazan story we need to buy not just the 10 books in TMBotF, but also Esslemont’s novels if not Erickson’s standalone books as well.

That's like saying that in order to get the "complete view" of the Star Wars universe, I need to buy all the movies, comics new and old, novels, YA novels, web-exclusive text stories, video games, et cetera et cetera ad infinitum.

Because you're never going to get a "complete" view.

So is Erikson a chump for somehow not managing to squeeze multiple-million-year histories for an entire planet and associated dimensions/realms/warrens into 10 hardcovers?

Attached File(s)

•  DontBeRidiculous.jpg (32.95K)
  Number of downloads: 0

[D'rek]

acesn8s, on 24 June 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

As I sat at my desk reading Return of the Crimson Guard, during lunch, something funny occurred to me. What are everyone's thoughts on the idea that Martin is not fulfilling his implied contract with the readers of ASoFaI by not finishing the series in a timely fashion; yet, in order to get a complete view of the Malazan story we need to buy not just the 10 books in TMBotF, but also Esslemont's novels if not Erickson's standalone books as well.

While yes, you are getting material to read is anyone upset about the extra money you had to spend to read the books outside of the MBotF series?

If you are upset, how does it compare with the wait for Dance of Dragons?

I didnt *have* to spend the extra money, I chose to. MBotF is full of random throwaways to events beyond the scope of the 10 novels, and only a few of those throwaways will ever be expounded upon in other novels like ICE's. Choosing not to read any of ICE's material would not make a negative impact on MBotF, you just wouldn't get the same extra info and other stories as you would if you did read them.

But anyways, I'm glad for the opportunity to spend money learning more about the malaziverse from the other co-creator.

[teholbeddict]

I have no problem with it from a monetary standpoint. My issue is with the fact that I'm not an Esselmont fan, I really didn't like the way he handled many of the old guard and story lines set up by SE in previous books, in ROTCG. In fact I hated ROTCG, so my biggest worry is that the same thing will happen with the other story lines and characters he'll be dealing with. Hopefully I'm wrong and he does a good job of everything, but I would have much rathered SE tie everything up, clearly that's not possible though.

[Abyss]

The point is not the degree of 'completedness' of either series. Any genre author worth his keyboard these days is perpetually inferring massive events that the reader will never read.

The point is that SE has predictably and more or less regularly produced a rock solid book every 1-2 years.

GRRM took five years to produce FEAST and then said it was only half a book and the other would be right along. And five years later here we are.

...and it's THAT that generates the whingfeste.

[Werthead]

Quote

That's like saying that in order to get the "complete view" of the Star Wars universe, I need to buy all the movies, comics new and old, novels, YA novels, web-exclusive text stories, video games, et cetera et cetera ad infinitum.

Because you're never going to get a "complete" view.

So is Erikson a chump for somehow not managing to squeeze multiple-million-year histories for an entire planet and associated dimensions/realms/warrens into 10 hardcovers?

I've got a feeling that The Crippled God could go a bit Lost on us, with people going, "Erm, okay, you answered those central points, but what about these thirteen other plot points you established in previous volumes? What happened to them?" And I suppose it's a good thing that between the two other trilogies, the companion book, the novellas and ICE's material, those questions should eventually all get answered.

However, we've already been told that matters such as Silverfox/the T'lan Imass/Assail, Karsa/Darujhistan/the Tyrant/the Toblakai uprising, Kharkanas/the Tiste Andii backstory and so on are being addressed in these other works. Those aren't just optional storylines in my view, but central, key storylines established at the heart of the series which have now been shunted off to one side in favour of Lether, the Bonehunters and the Crippled God, which to me are late-developing storylines (less so the CG but even he didn't show up until Book 3 and was almost wholly absent for all of Books 8-9). At this time the only major stories from GotM I'm expecting resolution on in TCG are Ganoes Paran/the Master of the Deck (he pretty much has to show up, IMO) and the Shadowthrone/Cotillion/Throne of Shadow stuff, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't happen either.

However, there isn't really a correlation to GRRM on that scale. ASoIaF should be one completed story with most of the major plot threads tied up at the end of seven books, but it's entirely possible we will still see the end of Erikson and Esslemont's works before ASoIaF is completed.

[HoosierDaddy]

T'lan Imass are only T'lan because of Olar Ethil, which we learned in Book 9, and we know will be dealt with in Book 10. I disagree that the Tiste Andii backstory is a central plot point. Anomander Rake was a major character, and he's been dealt with. Mother Dark being turned away from the Andii and it's impact on Wu (the war with the Malazan Empire) is a major plot point, and that is being dealt with.

Karsa seemed to be a major plot point, and it could be argued that his character was necessary in the Main-Arc to show a major effort of The Crippled God failed, as he failed to take up the sword, ruining the entire effort with the Edur. Thus, his necessity to the main-arc was no longer necessary after Book 7. Darujhistan is a setting, the characters introduced in GotM have been pivotal in the story (Crokus, Kruppe), but the Tyrant plot has never been a central plot.

So, yeah. Basically, I disagree. But, I recall you consider these to be cliffhangers and I disagreed with you on that, too.

[Salt-Man Z]

H.D., on 25 June 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

So, yeah. Basically, I disagree. But, I recall you consider these to be cliffhangers and I disagreed with you on that, too.

IAWHD. I think that the "hanging" plot points from the MBotF come with the territory; recall that one of the things SE is trying to accomplish with the series is to give the impression of being dropped into the middle of a fully-realized world for 10 books, then of being yanked back out. There will be an overarching plot or two to follow (the fall of the BBs combined with the rise and fate of the BHs, for one), and there will be numerous threads woven in among these that the series may touch on but not, ultimately, end up following; that's just the nature of the proverbial beast.

[MTS]

Yeah, SE has stated numerous times that the MBotF (and the other works) is a selective history of Wu, and as such will not cover everything. In history there are some things that we just don't know and which are not explained by historians, as it is not central to their own story. Leaving plot threads dangling is inevitable not only due to the scope of the work, but because that is the style of his narrative. Now, you might argue that such a literary tack is not a valid reason to develop plots and then for all intents and purposes abandon them, but it is nevertheless the author's attempt to realise a certain vision of his world and all the complaining in the world will not affect the outcome. Plus, I'm sure he does not want to disappoint us by not visiting certain areas of the story, thus the attempt to cover as much as possible. Assail, Korel, the Crimson Guard, the Tyrant, the T'lan Imass, all will be explored and hopefully resolved. Really though, the amount of information that SE and ICE have managed to impart in 15 (?) books so far is simply staggering, so I won't be too put out if there are things left unexplained. The only disappointment I have is that there is a character named 'the Bearded One' that we will likely not see. I mean come on, that's just downright mean.

In a way though, I think it is a good thing some things are to be left to the imagination. I know some people were disappointed with ROTCG, because the Guard themselves weren't nearly as awesome as the picture which had been built up in their head. I suspect the trend will continue for the Korel, Assail and the Tyrant plotlines. Myth is always far more exciting than the reality, after all.

Wait, this is a GRRM thread. Oops lol.

This post has been edited by MTS: 25 June 2010 - 03:09 AM

[blackzoid]

Mind you, GRRM did somewhat the same thing with his Dunk and Egg stories. I had no idea who Maester Aemon was talking about while feverish in A Feast for Crows. Turned out it was a character from those short stories. Now, I don't think his first 3 books were connected to the Dunk and Egg stories (other than background), but it definetdly threw me in the 4th.

I would also disagree that Assail/Tyrant in Darujhistan are central stories to the MbotF storyline. Only storyline on Werts list that I would consider a central storyline would have been Karsa's eventual fate. Thats it really. In general I would think, theres a difference between mentioning other events and exploring all those events in detail.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 June 2010 - 10:10 AM

[MTS]

blackzoid, on 25 June 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

Mind you, GRRM did somewhat the same thing with his Dunk and Egg stories. I had no idea who Maester Aemon was talking about while feverish in A Feast for Crows. Turned out it was a character from those short stories. Now, I don't think his first 3 books were connected to the Dunk and Egg stories (other than background), but it definetdly threw me in the 4th.

I would also disagree that Assail/Tyrant in Darujhistan are central stories to the MbotF storyline. Only storyline on Werts list that I would consider a central storyline would have been Karsa's eventual fate. Thats it really. In general I would think, theres a difference between mentioning other events and exploring all those events in detail.

Oh no doubt Martin has fleshed out his world very well. I haven't read ASOIAF for years now but it is something I remember. Haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories so can't really comment there though.

As for Assail/Tyrant, I agree - I very much fail to see how it is 'central'. Assail is completely isolated from virtually everything that goes on in the series. Any specific mentions of Assail are sporadic and cryptic to the extreme. Almost a decade since it was first mentioned and we still have absolutely no idea what is going on there. As for the Tyrant, it is a very Darujhistan-centred story, which the MBOTF is most definitely not, and until TTH it was a mystery on a par with Assail. Still is, arguably. In my mind Karsa was only central to the story in his relationship with the CG and the war between the gods. That is the only central storyline in this novel to me - everything revolves around it. Lether, the rebellion and the Malazan campaigns on Genabackis are only mortal events which shape and drive this conflict. Although I don't know why Wert is annoyed, since we know these will be addressed, Karsa particularly has just moved outside the scope of the MBOTF.

This is where Martin and Erikson differ. Martin does not have anywhere near the amount of characters and events to juggle. As such his storylines are much more interconnected - the War of the Five Kings (and the developing fallout from it [Arya and Bran for instance]), the Others and Daenarys Targaryen's struggles are the major plot points from memory, and they all relate to each other in easily recognisable ways. Erikson's storylines were up until the sixth book almost completely separate, and only then did they start to intertwine. The thing there was only parts of those storylines intertwined - the T'orrud for instance were solely concerned with the welfare of Darujhistan. Once the scope moved beyond Darujhistan in MoI they became much less relevant. Felisin Younger has simply disappeared from the narrative, as has Leoman and Dunsparrow. Kalam is still in hibernation (but won't quite break Rallick's record of 7 books), and Paran is god knows where. You can see Martin's narrative is much more self-contained than Erikson's, and like was noted previously Erikson does not wish to explain everything to us. Erikson will take the nature of the Azath to his grave for instance (if he even has one lined up), whereas Martin will leave way fewer stones unturned, simply because his storylines are much more self-absorbed in focus and Erikson has made a far greater attempt to layer his narrative and provide mountains of exposition spanning thousands of years.

[moose]

You can hardly compare the two.

On hand, to get the complete picture of Erikson's universe, you can spend a little more and read Esslemont's books.

On the other, to get a complete picture of Martin's universe, you can... read blogs about NFL, eating, and masturbating to casting videos... or wait over 10 years for a complete book.

So, yes, I have spent much, much more on Erikson in the last 10 years. But he has delivered much, much more product.

[MecnunK]

Abyss, on 24 June 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

The point is not the degree of 'completedness' of either series. Any genre author worth his keyboard these days is perpetually inferring massive events that the reader will never read.

The point is that SE has predictably and more or less regularly produced a rock solid book every 1-2 years.

GRRM took five years to produce FEAST and then said it was only half a book and the other would be right along. And five years later here we are.

...and it's THAT that generates the whingfeste.

Yep spot on, plus the fact that feast was garbage. I don't know what the general public consensus is on Feast but I thought it was atrocious which makes me subscribe to the theory that he has run out of steam/ideas and does'nt know how to continue with the same quality he had in the first three (all excellent IMO) so perhaps he is doing us a favour in the greater scheme of things by not releasing some half-arsed tripe.

[Harvester]

Feast was a makeshift book, because Martin's idea of a five year jump didn't work out. Now Dany's causing him many problems, he simply hasn't figured out how to get her out of that damned city in a matter of weeks and make it believable. He's a perfectionist, he must have rewritten certain chapters about 30-40 times by now.

[Paran]

http://www.sffnews.c...f-bitching.html

B*tching about bit*hing about bi*ching... Outlines the apparent issues concisely.