[Werthead]

H.D., on 08 June 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can I ask why he would be so strict about someone else continuing the story? Yes, it is possible it would be on a lesser plane of writing. Yes, it is possible it could be on a better plane. So, has he stated why?

One of Martin's best friends was Roger Zelazny, the author of The Chronicles of Amber fantasy series. Martin and Zelazny used to joke around about what would happen if they died in the middle of a project, and Zelazny was absolutely adamant that no-one else would get to work on his books. After Zelazny's death, the family let some other author in to write Amber books and they were terrible hack jobs cashing in on the name for money, which pissed Martin off no end. Martin also knew, if somewhat more distantly, Frank Herbert from conventions in the 1970s and 1980s and has not been too impressed with the Anderson/Herbert continuations for much the same reason.

However, he has acknowledged that what Sanderson's doing is with Jordan's permission and with the notes and outlines that Jordan left behind, and certainly knows about the good reviews that The Gathering Storm has received. That's why I think if he ended up in a similar situation to Jordan - remember that Jordan was relatively close to finishing his series when he died and had two years between diagnosis and death to outline the final book in extreme detail - he might relent and pursue some other avenue, maybe with an author like Daniel Abraham (one of GRRM's close friends and who has a writing style broadly compatible with GRRM's).

If GRRM was hit by a falling satellite tomorrow though, we'd be out of luck. Martin's so-called 'organic' writing style means that whilst he knows where the series ends, the exact path to get there from 'here' is still uncertain, and there is no outline or firm plan in existence for that anywhere outside of GRRM's head. Any other author finishing the series from this point would have to do far more invention and guesswork off the top of their heads than Sanderson is doing, which I think would be unacceptable to the fans anyway.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 08 June 2010 - 08:43 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Okay. But, I disagree with the fan thing. Perhaps the fanatical followers wouldn't want to see it finished without Martin at the helm maybe, but for the vast majority I'd think any ending is better than none. Of course, that is in this casual fan's opinion.

[Slick Mongoose]

D, on 08 June 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

A solid point. Of course who knows if Martin won't write something between aSoIaF books that ends up being better and more popular than them!

Check out the new Wild Cards series.

[Abyss]

Werthead, on 08 June 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

... Any other author finishing the series ...I think would be unacceptable to the fans anyway.

H.D., on 08 June 2010 - 08:47 PM, said:

Okay. But, I disagree with the fan thing. Perhaps the fanatical followers wouldn't want to see it finished without Martin at the helm maybe, but for the vast majority I'd think any ending is better than none. Of course, that is in this casual fan's opinion.

Agreed w HD. Who are we kidding? far far too many tall dollars to be made by finishing the series (ideally in three books, each divided into two volumes six months apart, with a separate volume epilogue and a two book 'prequel' that "answers a lot of questions the fans have been wondering about".)

[Werthead]

Abyss, on 08 June 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

Agreed w HD. Who are we kidding? far far too many tall dollars to be made by finishing the series (ideally in three books, each divided into two volumes six months apart, with a separate volume epilogue and a two book 'prequel' that "answers a lot of questions the fans have been wondering about".)

There would be money to be made out of it, sure, but who will the publishers pay? If GRRM dies the rights go to his girlfriend, and she certainly isn't going to be giving the rights to anyone else (if anything, she far more vehement about it than George). The literary heirs further down the line also take much the same line.

The publishers get no say. They do not control the copyright and rights on ASoIaF in any way, shape or form, only the publication rights for the completed books. If the rights-holders to the series do not let them finish the series with another author, they cannot do anything about it.

[amphibian]

acesn8s, on 08 June 2010 - 01:18 PM, said:

All the Martin complainers make me chuckle now. You want indignation, get in line behind the Jean Auel readers:

The Clan of the Cave Bear, 1980
The Valley of Horses, 1982
The Mammoth Hunters, 1985
The Plains of Passage, 1990
The Shelters of Stone, 2002
The Land of Painted Caves, 2011

I actually read The Mammoth Hunters when I was 6 and The Plains of Passage when I was about 9. The big event that Plains of Passage leaves off is just the main characters waiting to formally marry (which is the reason for the passing across the plains in the first place), as they've gotten to the man's tribe by trekking from Eastern Europe to like France or something. I'm actually surprised Auel took 12 years to write the next book and then is taking 9 years for the last. There's only a wedding in the summer to get to and whatever else she wants to happen in the series is a sort of coda.

This series begins in a really messed up way with a 14 year old getting gang raped, beaten up and attacked by a sabertooth tiger. It's written in a way that really appeals to women that are currently in their late 40s to mid 50s. That's the audience for these books. If you are not in this audience, I don't think you'll be thrilled by these books.

I picked up the first one because The Mammoth Hunters sounds like an awesome book to a 6 year old. The next book I picked up to see if it had any more Ice Age creatures (answer: not really). Yeah, I was the perfect demographic for the Pixar movie Ice Age at that age.

[Tsundoku]

Werthead, on 08 June 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

The Stand, It, The Tommyknockers, The Shining, Carrie and maybe Pet Semetary all above the DT series.

I can't believe you left out the scariest book of all time - Salem's Lot.

That one scared the shit out of me! I finished it alone in the house on your cliched dark and stormy night. After which I went around and triple-quadruple checked the locks, windows and shutters. Then crawled under a stack of doonas (aka quilt, duvet) and stayed there until well after the sun came up.

This is the vampire book they should make all Twitards read.

On the topic - I doubt you will ever build anything remotely resembling consensus over something so highly subjective. Best to agree to disagree, methinks.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 09 June 2010 - 09:08 AM

[Abyss]

Werthead, on 09 June 2010 - 01:39 AM, said:

There would be money to be made out of it, sure, but who will the publishers pay? ...

You're likely more tied in than i am Wert', but on a basic and fundamental reality of the book/publishing/words-on-paper industry, bestsellers are worth millions, even in a post-humous situation like the WoT books found themselves in (or, allowing for situational variations, Dune, Bourne and even LotR) and to an industry in perpetual crisis and one tech evolution or illegal download away from disaster at any point, those millions are lifeblood. The Harry Potter series single-handedly paid for the industry for five years or so and they will not let ANY potential major seller go softly into that good light. So they (the publishers, the distributors, the printers, the bookstores... etc...) will offer anything. ANY. THING. To have the product. Girlfriend wants to pick the successor author? She'll pick the successor author. family wants to preserve adaptation rights? No problem, we'll pay for the nice lawyers to draft the agreement. literary heirs want final edit? Sure. Go for it. Want the late author's thrid nephew who once wrote a rejected Battletech manuscript to co-write - hey, we'll put his name front and center on that cover for you, AND pay for the post-humous adoption paperwork so he can legall change his name to 'Gregory Roger Reese Martin', how's that sound? We good? We good? Cool, sign here, in blood if you please...

Just my two cents, and i remain on the side that's perfectly happy for GRRM to take as long as he bloody wants and live to finish the series... but there it is.

Sombra, on 09 June 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

Werthead, on 08 June 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

The Stand, It, The Tommyknockers, The Shining, Carrie and maybe Pet Semetary all above the DT series.

I can't believe you left out the scariest book of all time - Salem's Lot...

Cujo was the scariest thing i have ever read.

- Abyss, prefers his St-bernards with the little keg collar.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Some thoughts about the last several pages.

Regarding the Dark Tower: Salem's lot is heavily tied in to TDK, buy you would never know it unless you read TDK, Salem's Lot doesn't really mention it.

It's not unusualy for King horror fans to be seperate from his TDK fans. I am this way. Other than a few of his classics, I am completely apathetic about his horror. I couldn't name more than one of them that he has published in the last 10 years. I am unaware when he writes a new one, don't care if I hear about it, and doubt i will ever read any of them unless I am stuck on a plane and find one tucked into the pocket. HOwever, I rank TDK (glorious ending and all) as easily one of the top three fantasy series of all time. This doesn't strike me as odd.

Regarding Martin: Half of the backlash xomes from his blog, that's what is getting people fired up and giving them ammo to complain that he cares about everything BUT the series. If he dropped that, things would calm down.

[Paran]

Abyss, on 08 June 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

If it ever comes up (and i hope it doesn't), I say tall dollars trump author integrity.

- Abyss, cynic.

I Lol'd! I'm sure the sale of calenders, miniatures, replicas, water logged back issues and "limited editions" will happily continue without the integrity, thank you very much!

I'm with you though, I think that IF something tragic happens, then I doubt Martin would begrudge his loved ones using his works to provide an easier life, and most fans would wish for the closure of the series, whether Mat sounds like Mat or not....

[Werthead]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 10 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

Regarding the Dark Tower: Salem's lot is heavily tied in to TDK, buy you would never know it unless you read TDK, Salem's Lot doesn't really mention it.

Indeed. THE STAND and EYE OF THE DRAGON are also tied into the DARK TOWER books, and I think a couple of others as well (haven't read DT yet, just going by what some of my King-fan friends have told me), although none of them are necessary to read the DT itself.

Quote

Regarding Martin: Half of the backlash xomes from his blog, that's what is getting people fired up and giving them ammo to complain that he cares about everything BUT the series. If he dropped that, things would calm down.

I agree about that, and at least briefly mentioning ADWD in every blog post or maybe even just once a month might have moderated some issues, especially if he'd been doing it all along since 2005. I'd also say that GRRM's biggest mistake in the whole affair was to have put that note in the back of AFFC and then not explained better why he hadn't met that deadline. I'm thinking of something like the 'state of play' post Rothfuss did a year or two back which set out why his second book has been delayed so long, or Lynch's forthright (if very long-in-coming) post about his medical issues. If he'd put up a big update or blog post in late 2006 saying the book isn't done and here's why, that would have again solved some of these issues.

The counter-argument is that it is his blog, or as he puts it his soapbox, if you don't want to hear about other stuff, you don't have to read it. The problem is that whilst he started out regularly updating the ADWD page on his website, meaning you used to be able to just visit that instead, for the last two years he hasn't updated the website and sometimes seeds mentions of ADWD in his blog posts about other topics. So if you are anxious for news about ADWD, you have to trawl through posts about American football and miniatures, which I think is definitely annoying some people.

Of course, the question is why on Earth you'd want to trawl through every blog post for some nugget of info about ADWD when the only thing people really want to know is when it is done, and when that happens the news will hit every corner of the Internet very quickly indeed.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 10 June 2010 - 09:37 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: Dark Tower. I would argue that Salem's Lot and Insomnia are absolutely needed to get the full impact of the series. Otherwise, you get a great big Deux Ex out of the blue in book 7.

[Tarcanus]

Werthead, on 10 June 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 10 June 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

Regarding the Dark Tower: Salem's lot is heavily tied in to TDK, buy you would never know it unless you read TDK, Salem's Lot doesn't really mention it.

Indeed. THE STAND and EYE OF THE DRAGON are also tied into the DARK TOWER books, and I think a couple of others as well (haven't read DT yet, just going by what some of my King-fan friends have told me), although none of them are necessary to read the DT itself.

Quote

Regarding Martin: Half of the backlash xomes from his blog, that's what is getting people fired up and giving them ammo to complain that he cares about everything BUT the series. If he dropped that, things would calm down.

I agree about that, and at least briefly mentioning ADWD in every blog post or maybe even just once a month might have moderated some issues, especially if he'd been doing it all along since 2005. I'd also say that GRRM's biggest mistake in the whole affair was to have put that note in the back of AFFC and then not explained better why he hadn't met that deadline. I'm thinking of something like the 'state of play' post Rothfuss did a year or two back which set out why his second book has been delayed so long, or Lynch's forthright (if very long-in-coming) post about his medical issues. If he'd put up a big update or blog post in late 2006 saying the book isn't done and here's why, that would have again solved some of these issues.

The counter-argument is that it is his blog, or as he puts it his soapbox, if you don't want to hear about other stuff, you don't have to read it. The problem is that whilst he started out regularly updating the ADWD page on his website, meaning you used to be able to just visit that instead, for the last two years he hasn't updated the website and sometimes seeds mentions of ADWD in his blog posts about other topics. So if you are anxious for news about ADWD, you have to trawl through posts about American football and miniatures, which I think is definitely annoying some people.

Of course, the question is why on Earth you'd want to trawl through every blog post for some nugget of info about ADWD when the only thing people really want to know is when it is done, and when that happens the news will hit every corner of the Internet very quickly indeed.

Especially when, if you've learned how to be computer-lazy, you can just hit Control-F, enter Dance or DWD, and then see where he mentions it without trawling through all of the crud.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

A list of TDK tie in material. I believe that if you look at one of the TDK guide books, the list is actually much more extensive than this.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 11 June 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

A list of TDK tie in material. I believe that if you look at one of the TDK guide books, the list is actually much more extensive than this.

I've read all of them, and Salem's Lot and Insomnia are the only vital contributors, outside of the short stories.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Quote

Auditions continue in Dublin, Belfast, and London for a whole bunch of parts, both major and minor, on HBO's GAME OF THRONES.

Sometimes it is a very hard job.

I've just reviewed the tapes of twelve young women reading for the part of Shae.

Excuse me. I need to go take a cold shower now.
Mood: horny

-GRRM, from his blog

eww eww eww eww eww eww eww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MTS]

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Number of downloads: 0

[Aptorian]

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[worry]

He's gonna die, Stephen King is gonna write books 6 and 7, and it's all gonna dovetail into the Dark Tower somehow.

[Abyss]

Re TDT (what is all this TDK stuff?) - King managed to tie most of his work into it somehow, but SALEM'S LOT was retroactive, whereas most of the others he was actively dropping bits like 'Randall Flagg' and 'Discordia' in. And yeah, the deux es in the last book is my only real complaint about the series.

Re GRRM's blog - pretty much as upthread. His blog. If people don't wanna know, they shouldn't look.

Re GRRM's blog post -