[cleantoe]

*SPOILERS BELOW*
Hello everyone.

I just made an account just so I could vent my frustration about this book, and it seems I am in the minority judging by other threads.

This book was a complete disappointment for me, and easily the worst of the series. My first post and already everyone hates me!

Anyways, why did I hate the book? Well, the book was half-messy and half-boring. I could never figure out what the heck was happening, and I've read all 9 books right in a row.

The book I hated initially was the one with the rise of Rhulad. I was astonished that an author would write a book that completely takes place on a different continent with no other characters that we were introduced to, but I got over it mainly with the help of Tehol and Bugg/Mael, who were just...awesome. I loved it when I finished.

Now Dust of Dreams started out the same way for me. I was thinking to myself "okay, this book sucks so far and is boring as hell, but it'll get better." The only problem was, it didn't.

My biggest issue with the book has to be with the Barghast. They are such a waste of space in the book. Nothing from that plotline even matters. You guys might say Tool and going through the grief of seeing his wife hobbled only to be rejected by Toc...but that could have happened any other way. We didn't have to sit through hundreds of pages of Barghast whining and cruelty.

Then there is the Snake. I completely skipped over the Snake parts because they were so god-awful boring, and the girl who recites poetry while blowing flies from her damn lips every other line is just...annoying. If someone could summarize what happened with that plotline, I'd be in their debt. I am just getting sick of reading about marches, especially when Dust of Dreams is all about marching.

Finally, here is what frustrates me most about this book, and indeed the entire series. Why is everyone always keeping secrets from one another??? They do it book after book after book. The all hide their stupid little secrets. Why don't Bottle and Quick Ben talk more? Why does Fiddler keep his knowledge so secret when if everyone got together and spilled their guts about everything they knew, the whole damn series would have been finished already? Why did Fiddler have no problem playing his Deck of Dragons game before and now hates doing it, even before the super-reading? And why has Fiddler turned into such a bitter annoying bastard? I don't even like reading his parts anymore.

Anyways, that's my rant. Sorry, it was long, but I have no one else to vent all this out to.

So now I have some questions (some extend from the previous books), if you will so oblige this rude newcomer:

1) I don't get what happened at the Deck of Dragons meeting. What did all that mean? (who got the cards...etc...and why won't Fiddler be clear about what he knows and what does he know anyways???)

2) Shield Anvil Tanakalian was told by the dying Destriant that "she" would betray everyone. Does anyone have any idea what he's talking about? Has it happened yet, or will it happen in the next book? (I'm assuming he's talking about Tavore wanting to free the Crippled God whereas in fact everyone believes she's trying to chain him further/kill him)

3) When Shadowthrone and Cotillion sent Fid and Quick Ben across their Shadow realm to go find whatever it was they would find, which turned out to be the Imass, why did Cotillion refuse to tell them about it in fear of muddling their thoughts or bias or whatever? And if they weren't sure what was across from there, why did they send them and how did they know that Quick Ben would be needed to fight off the Terrible Three?

4) Can someone please explain to me what happened with the Snake, and why this is significant? (just in case no one caught this in my ramblings above -- as a note, I skipped these parts entirely because they were very boring)

5) Why did Spinnock (or however you spell his name) fight Kallor to keep him out of Darujistahn? Presumably it was to prevent him from interfering with the fight between Dassem and Rake, but Kallor said that Rake wasn't his enemy. Also, why didn't Rake just ram Dragnipur into his own skull rather then getting into a fight with Traveller/Dassem in the first place?

6) What is the correlation between "Burn's Sleep" and "Burn", that T'lan Imass elder witch, and why is she no longer sleeping? And why was she sleeping before?


Hmm...that's it for now. Sorry for the long post.

[KeithF]

Don't worry, it's OK not to like the book. Almost every book in the series has its detractors, including people who love later books. To be honest, I agree with you on several counts, especially the Barghast soap opera (their concerns and rivalries seem so...petty compared with everything else going on) and the secrets (I'd prefer to have more idea what's going on). They just didn't break the book for me, and I enjoyed some of the things you didn't, like the Snake. My attitude is that SE throws in so many plotlines and ideas that there's always going to be a few things I don't enjoy. Also, it's always worth re-reading a book before judging it too harshly, as slow/confusing/annoying plotlines can sometimes seem better on a re-read when you know where they're going.

To (try to) answer your questions:

1) Short answer: I don't know. Other people have no doubt had hours of fun analyzing all the symbolism, something I haven't bothered to do. It's like any good prophecy/foreshadowing scene in a fantasy series: it doesn't all make sense until the things it relates to happen, which some of them probably haven't, since DoD is only half a book.
2) "She" could also mean the Mortal Sword (Krughava?). There are big dollops of foreshadowing of her being prideful and having a hero/messiah complex; if she doesn't like Tavore's plan, she might turn against it, for example.
3) Don't know, but Shadowthrone and/or Cotillion being inscrutable is pretty much what they always do. Also, it sounds almost as if you answered the question yourself.
4) The kids in the Snake are the children of Kolanse, the place the Bonehunters and their allies were heading for. It's been conquered/subjugated by the Forkrul Assail (IIRC the Snake kids call them the Quisitors), who are killing and destroying everything and sacrificing people in order to do some funky ritual involving the Crippled God's heart, which is in Kolanse. The kids are trying to find somewhere safe (in a hopeless/despairing way), while being pursued by the Forkrul Assail and surviving adults who've turned to cannibalism. Near the end of the book, they reach the city Icarium built, but the Forkrul Assail catch up with them. The POV girl (forget her name) pulls incredible superpowers out of her underage ass (like many of Erikson's characters) and righteously pwns them.
5) a: I forget, but I think Kallor was planning to make himself king of Darujhistan or something (which would have complicated Rake's plans). b: Rule of Cool. Erikson basically admitted it, apparently. My handwave explanation was that Rake simply killing himself would have looked bad to the Andii/other people, so he went down in an epic duel and ended up being remembered as a hero by everyone. Alternatively, maybe just stabbing yourself with Dragnipur doesn't work.
6) I was a bit confused by this as well. I think in another thread, someone else suggested that Olar Ethil (the Imass witch) was lying/confused; she isn't actually every race's mother goddess.

This post has been edited by KeithF: 27 February 2010 - 01:36 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I can understand your disappointment. I wasn't really gobsmacked by it until the end, with the KCCM fight and the skykeeps. Still, TCG ought to be a ripper, eh?

Fiddler doesn't want to lay a field of the Deck because it draws power, and he's sensitive to it. It'd be like sending up a flare when surrounded by flesh-eating monsters.

[Leo]

2 - The betrayal seems more likely to come from Tavore than Krug. 'She' will betray everyone. If the mortal sword was to turn against the adjunct, I'm pretty sure she'd be followed by the majority of the alliance. There's only a tiny group that may support the un-chaining, and that's a very small chance. Perhaps this is where the Che'Malle destriant comes in. The Che'Malle seem to be the only ones aside from Tavore that understand the necessity of an unbound, eh... representation of anti-magic-and-life-ey-ness(-yet-somehow-a-magical-element-and-possible-origin-of-all-magic-and-existince-and-hence-,perhaps,-the-labeling-of-it-as-chaos) (originally Otataral dragon, then CG). I hope to see Gesler and Stormy unite them with the survivors. This also brings about a major problem. Are two free RoAMaLN too much for Wu to handle?

That kind of drifted off from the main point...



The Snake seemed boring at first to me, but really got interesting later. It offered a lot of info-tidbits and symbolism. The barghast were hit-and-miss. The end of that story hit hard.

This post has been edited by Leo: 27 February 2010 - 04:42 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

i thought there was a lot of laying things out on the table in this book. bottle and QB talk like never before. there's the command meeting where Akhrast Korvalain is first mentioned and all the gettting-stuff-out-in-the-open that happened there.

honestly the knowledge that people are holding back on is stuff i wouldn't blurt out either. what fiddler is hiding is the fact that the bonehunters are pretty much fucked. like fid says in the sergeants meeting, its not about surviving. most likely they will all die. thats not something that you go around telling people if you want them to stay with the army

[bubba]

Don't worry Cleantoe, all points of view are welcome here, and encouraged.

[JimmyBole]

I agree completely, I was also severely ticked off with 3 pages of internal reflection and memories from every single character in every single chapter. It says there was too much ending for one book so he split it in two, dust of dreams being the first half. To be honest half that book could have been cut, it seemed to me like he was struggling to fill the thing. Why didnt he just scrap dust of dreams and stick it all into the crippled god? Have the series finish on a cracking action packed high rather than trying desperatly to squeeze in another one? I've read all the other books and loved every single one, Midnight tides did start a little slow but by the end I loved everything about it. This one though only achieved one thing and that was to frustrate me. The majority of time I found I was forcing myself through it. All the rest I couldnt put down, this one felt like a chore reading it. A dismal read in an otherwise flawless series.


I got the impression that the deck of dragons reading didnt mean anything because the future was so clouded and nobody knew what the outcome big power shift would be. I could be wrong though. And I think Fiddler hates it because as someone said he's sensitive to power and is scared to death of being chosen by a god to do some dirty work.

I think the "she" the destriant was talking about is Krughava and the betrayal has something to do with tanakhalian's insane desire to have everyone die in a blaze of glory and be true heroes.

And I dont think there is any relation to olar ethil and burn. I think she was just talkin jive. Maybe because she turned into dust that she see's herself as part of everything .

[lobo the wolfman]

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

*SPOILERS BELOW*
Hello everyone.

I just made an account just so I could vent my frustration about this book, and it seems I am in the minority judging by other threads.

This book was a complete disappointment for me, and easily the worst of the series. My first post and already everyone hates me!

Anyways, why did I hate the book? Well, the book was half-messy and half-boring. I could never figure out what the heck was happening, and I've read all 9 books right in a row.

The book I hated initially was the one with the rise of Rhulad. I was astonished that an author would write a book that completely takes place on a different continent with no other characters that we were introduced to, but I got over it mainly with the help of Tehol and Bugg/Mael, who were just...awesome. I loved it when I finished.

Now Dust of Dreams started out the same way for me. I was thinking to myself "okay, this book sucks so far and is boring as hell, but it'll get better." The only problem was, it didn't.

My biggest issue with the book has to be with the Barghast. They are such a waste of space in the book. Nothing from that plotline even matters. You guys might say Tool and going through the grief of seeing his wife hobbled only to be rejected by Toc...but that could have happened any other way. We didn't have to sit through hundreds of pages of Barghast whining and cruelty.

Then there is the Snake. I completely skipped over the Snake parts because they were so god-awful boring, and the girl who recites poetry while blowing flies from her damn lips every other line is just...annoying. If someone could summarize what happened with that plotline, I'd be in their debt. I am just getting sick of reading about marches, especially when Dust of Dreams is all about marching.

Finally, here is what frustrates me most about this book, and indeed the entire series. Why is everyone always keeping secrets from one another??? They do it book after book after book. The all hide their stupid little secrets. Why don't Bottle and Quick Ben talk more? Why does Fiddler keep his knowledge so secret when if everyone got together and spilled their guts about everything they knew, the whole damn series would have been finished already? Why did Fiddler have no problem playing his Deck of Dragons game before and now hates doing it, even before the super-reading? And why has Fiddler turned into such a bitter annoying bastard? I don't even like reading his parts anymore.

I would think that being part of a army where the ranking officer can and does regularly gets killed by his own troops for being useless, people would try to keep as many edges as they can.

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Anyways, that's my rant. Sorry, it was long, but I have no one else to vent all this out to.

So now I have some questions (some extend from the previous books), if you will so oblige this rude newcomer:

1) I don't get what happened at the Deck of Dragons meeting. What did all that mean? (who got the cards...etc...and why won't Fiddler be clear about what he knows and what does he know anyways???)

2) Shield Anvil Tanakalian was told by the dying Destriant that "she" would betray everyone. Does anyone have any idea what he's talking about? Has it happened yet, or will it happen in the next book? (I'm assuming he's talking about Tavore wanting to free the Crippled God whereas in fact everyone believes she's trying to chain him further/kill him)

Tavore being the one to betray everyone seems likely, seeing as her brother isn't playing fair with the other gods.......

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

3) When Shadowthrone and Cotillion sent Fid and Quick Ben across their Shadow realm to go find whatever it was they would find, which turned out to be the Imass, why did Cotillion refuse to tell them about it in fear of muddling their thoughts or bias or whatever? And if they weren't sure what was across from there, why did they send them and how did they know that Quick Ben would be needed to fight off the Terrible Three?

I think it was the fact the fact that if Quick Ben knew that it would take them into Starvald Demelain, and with the birth of a Azath there which would give Shadowthrone easy access to all other warrens, Quick Ben may not been as willing to help.

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

4) Can someone please explain to me what happened with the Snake, and why this is significant? (just in case no one caught this in my ramblings above -- as a note, I skipped these parts entirely because they were very boring)

5) Why did Spinnock (or however you spell his name) fight Kallor to keep him out of Darujistahn? Presumably it was to prevent him from interfering with the fight between Dassem and Rake, but Kallor said that Rake wasn't his enemy. Also, why didn't Rake just ram Dragnipur into his own skull rather then getting into a fight with Traveller/Dassem in the first place?

Kallor was going to claim the seat of King of High House Chains which wouldn't be healthy for anyone if he successed. There was also the danger that he would try to claim Dragnipur if the chance came up.

I think that SE just wanted a cool ending for his book, but it doses seem fitting that the son of Mother Dark die with a big sacrifice so that his mother could notice and turn towards the Tiste Andii again. It wouldn't be as meaningful if he just stab himself with the sword, as so many to the Tiste Andii where prone to just giving up.

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

6) What is the correlation between "Burn's Sleep" and "Burn", that T'lan Imass elder witch, and why is she no longer sleeping? And why was she sleeping before?

Most here thing that she was talking out of her ass at this point.

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Hmm...that's it for now. Sorry for the long post.

Hope that helps clear up some questions.

Also l think the fact that being the second last book of a ten series most would think that the author would try to close up a few story lines, but instead he only added more plot lines and seemed to go no where with others lend many to dislike Dust of Dreams. I personaly think that it was one of the better books in the whole series.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 27 February 2010 - 01:31 PM

[JimmyBole]

On the question about rake letting himself be killed by edgewalker rather than killing himself. In the conversation between Mael and Kilmandaros they mentioned the fact that Rake didnt do anything by halves and probably did it to force everyone into a reckoning by bringing mother dark, father light and Draconus back into the frame. Also he needed egdewalker to kill him so he would get dragnipur and let it be destroyed. Nobody else would have alowed it to happen certainly not kallor, and in cheating edgewalker out of the honor of killing him by letting himself get killed he probably set the stage of whatever edgewalker does into the next book. The thing that interests me is the bargain between hood and rake. Why did hood bargain with rake in order to get back to a mortal body ? He was already a god and could do as he pleased, why did he want to get back to his jaghut pals that seem so amused by everything?. And is whiskeyjack the new god of death ?

[Aptorian]

Just a tiny correction here. Dassem/Traveller not Edgewalker.

[worry]

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but skipping whole sections of a book is sacrilege!

[Sinisdar Toste]

JimmyBole, on 27 February 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

I think the "she" the destriant was talking about is Krughava and the betrayal has something to do with tanakhalian's insane desire to have everyone die in a blaze of glory and be true heroes.

this is exactly the opposite vibe i got from tanakalian. he wants to keep krughava from tossing away her soldiers in order to die in a blaze of glory and be a hero.

[Trull's son]

i found the snake to be dreary, but muscle through enough of it and it proves to be readable. as to explaining the story, can anyone of us on these forums explain everything? No, and we may never be able to.
I like the comment about the secrets, mainly because some of them have NO value. If Tavore's plan needs an army, maybe she would be better served by one that isn't mortal (see pile of bonehunter bones). It's only fair that she explain to those who are going to die exactly what they are dying for. I figure that to confront a land occupied by Forkrul, you might need more than a few (thousand) grumpy soldiers. An army of Quicks, Bottles, and Stormriders on the other hand...
Loved the book though, clever, dark, and origninal.

[Fenner's Teats]

JimmyBole, on 27 February 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

I agree completely, I was also severely ticked off with 3 pages of internal reflection and memories from every single character in every single chapter. It says there was too much ending for one book so he split it in two, dust of dreams being the first half. To be honest half that book could have been cut, it seemed to me like he was struggling to fill the thing.

THANK YOU....that is exACTLY how I feel about it. (yes I mean to mix my upper and lower case there hehehe). Here are people, some stupid, some smart, most under the greatest stress of their lives and they all come out sounding like pulitzer prize winners. I mean, if I was dying, in the desert, my thoughts would be something like........"Meat....meat...meat....water....water.....water....."

or if I was almost anyone in a war, I would be all "Frack frack frack frack" pretty much most of the time. Some characters have been portrayed as pretty shallow nay stupid early on and suddenly you get in their head and they ALL have time for a poetic introspective interlude.

My concern is that Erickson will keep this kind of thing up and fill half of the next book with this stuff, when really there are about 1200 story lines and questions that should be wrapped up. I have a feeling that this book will end like the series started....with more questions than answers.

Leaving dangling conclusions, in my mind, is not artistic or even smart. We have gone along for the ride and it's been an absolute pleasure, but so help me if Erickson really feels he needs to fluff half the next book only to run out of answers at the end....I might give up on Fantasy all together.

Also, the end of a book should be like the final paragraph of an essay *imho* you don't introduce new points (or in this case Characters) I just want what we got fleshed out a bit and then blow the shit up at the end.

....Calm now....

Truely I love Erickson, I would likely bare a child for him......well only if he asked me too, but he needs to get to the point in the next book or this will pass firmly from the realm of art into disaster.

Teats

[Sinisdar Toste]

im sure that steve is completely aware of everyones expectations and the amount of pressure he is under to make tCG one of the best books of the genre. i don't expect him to fail us, not when every interview he's done conveys an attitude of utter confidence about his ability to nail the climax and resolution of this series. this thing is his magnum opus, and if you think you're emotions are hung on it, just imagine how much his are. his entire adult life has pretty much been leading up to this book, as he has said, so i imagine my trust in his writing skills will be rewarded. perhaps all the thematic/philosophic meandering that goes in characters heads will gain a complete picture element that suddenly makes us all say, "ohhhhhhhhhhh" and nod our heads. but that's not likely. either way i enjoy it because its part of a complete reality.

also, you can be all "FRACK FRACK FRACK" about shit, but ffs, people form opinions, they think about them and they don't often lay them out clearly to people around them. doesn't matter if they're a soldier or a commander. but i guess it helps when critical thinking seems to be part of malazan military doctrine.

[Silencer]

All right, I think I see your problem. The first time I read the Snake passages, I didn't like them much either. They grew on me on my re-read to the point that, even if I do consider them the worst plotline in the novel, are actually fairly decent, in retrospect.

The problem is with one of purpose. You're reading the book in order to have a great joyride of excitement, SE is writing it (if I may be so presumptuous to claim to know his mind, for a moment) to cover the entire range: philosophical diatribes, comparative cultures and ways of life (you say, for example, that the Barghast whining and cruelty was a waste of time - it's entire purpose was to show the brutality held within that particular social structure, and in turn also highlight that such brutality existed in other cultures, just hidden from sight, and the mass extinction of the culture right at the end when they were on the verge of cultural revolution occurred to show just how, in reality, futile and self-deluded human affairs are), and so on.

Now, consider that SE also puts in the disclaimer that this book does not follow the traditional narrative arc, and you very quickly realise that, for all intents and purposes, this first half of the book is the rise, the intro, the early chapters. TCG is the payoff, the climax, the resolution, and we will only be able to judge DoD's success once it is 'completed' by the second book. Will the pages of 'pointless' PoV's and so on be worth it? I'm personally sure that it will. And we are also warned that not everything will be tied off neatly, though most of the important plots will be, and hopefully some of the others - but this is a world, one now being covered by two authors, and so there is a lot more to come from them both.

I think a lot of the dislike is coming from the fact that this book is build-up. What might seem pointless now may in fact be crucial in TCG. It may also be necessary from SE's PoV and we'll never understand why. I, for one, enjoyed the work as it came, especially after a re-read.

[HoosierDaddy]

cleantoe, on 26 February 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

*SPOILERS BELOW*
Hello everyone.

I just made an account just so I could vent my frustration about this book, and it seems I am in the minority judging by other threads.

This book was a complete disappointment for me, and easily the worst of the series. My first post and already everyone hates me!

Anyways, why did I hate the book? Well, the book was half-messy and half-boring. I could never figure out what the heck was happening, and I've read all 9 books right in a row.

The book I hated initially was the one with the rise of Rhulad. I was astonished that an author would write a book that completely takes place on a different continent with no other characters that we were introduced to, but I got over it mainly with the help of Tehol and Bugg/Mael, who were just...awesome. I loved it when I finished.

Now Dust of Dreams started out the same way for me. I was thinking to myself "okay, this book sucks so far and is boring as hell, but it'll get better." The only problem was, it didn't.

Okay, you didn't like Midnight Tides at first (like many, many, many others) and came around to loving it. Good on you for that taste.

Quote

My biggest issue with the book has to be with the Barghast. They are such a waste of space in the book. Nothing from that plotline even matters. You guys might say Tool and going through the grief of seeing his wife hobbled only to be rejected by Toc...but that could have happened any other way. We didn't have to sit through hundreds of pages of Barghast whining and cruelty.

Are they a waste of space? Does nothing from that plot-line matter?

This/These are your biggest assertion for why this book is a "waste of space." And yet, these two storylines are very important.

Why are the Barghast NOT a waste of space and why DO they matter?

The Barghast were essential to the build up and finale of Memories of Ice. Actually, the fact that they and Broods' army didn't make it to Coral in time is a damned fine reason why the Barghast are static in the fist place. But more importantly, this unused army of Humbrall Taur rediscovers its roots as a naval force, and finally, Tool reanimates as a human and gets with Hetan, the daughter of the White Face leader. (MOI, all of this and then suddenly)

In Reapers Gale we find out that the WFB landed on the beaches of eastern Letheras quite a while ago. However, as we come to find out in DoD, and was intimated in RG, Humbrall Taur died in the crossing. So, Tool takes over leadership.

TOOL takes over leadership. And thus, the massive infighting begins. Humbrall Taur might have been able to lead this invasion, but an outsider is going to find it difficult.

Barghast leadership resolves around personal battle challenges. Hetan was afforded quite a bit of leeway because she was the daughter
1of one of the leaders of the Barghast, and a solid warrior of her own. However, Tool refuses to battle for his position. He is the leader of the WFB without having battled for it, and refusing to battle to retain the position.

I believe that part of the extreme violence visited unto Hetan and would have been visited upon her children was a reaction to Tool's refusal to partake in customary Barghast leadership activities, which would have had him slaying humans left and right. Instead, he hoped to evolve their society and failed miserably.

As for "hobbling." It's horrific and ugly. Welcome to humanity. For god's sake look at what we've managed to do to each other for no better reason than we look different/believe different/behave different as opposed to the barbarity of the Barghast. Why do you expect anything else? The only viewpoint of the Barghast that we have prior to DoD is in MoI and it's from the BB's and Caravanseri perspectives. Neither of those perspectives should be considered "average" to me, at all.

Quote

Then there is the Snake. I completely skipped over the Snake parts because they were so god-awful boring, and the girl who recites poetry while blowing flies from her damn lips every other line is just...annoying. If someone could summarize what happened with that plotline, I'd be in their debt. I am just getting sick of reading about marches, especially when Dust of Dreams is all about marching.

You skip over parts and yet still judge them? Frankly, the Snake is one fothe most unique perspectives in all of Malazan. Why are they important? Why summarize them?

The Snake is comparable to the Chain of Dogs, which has to be one of the greatest entries in Malaz history. The main difference is that we don't get the blow-by-blow history of the Snake history as we did the Chain. These kids are the refugees of what I can only assume is going to be the final battle ground. They are refugees of the the lands around Kolanse, and thus the lands bordering Kaminsod's heart.

Even more radically important, the Snake brings us to the City of Icarus. Icarium, one of the series most mysterious characeters in the series is given a large background upgrade with the scenes of Icarus and how the FA are unable to assail it do to its investment hundreds of thousands of years after its construction.

Quote

Finally, here is what frustrates me most about this book, and indeed the entire series. Why is everyone always keeping secrets from one another??? They do it book after book after book. The all hide their stupid little secrets. Why don't Bottle and Quick Ben talk more? Why does Fiddler keep his knowledge so secret when if everyone got together and spilled their guts about everything they knew, the whole damn series would have been finished already? Why did Fiddler have no problem playing his Deck of Dragons game before and now hates doing it, even before the super-reading? And why has Fiddler turned into such a bitter annoying bastard? I don't even like reading his parts anymore.

Why do they do what they do? They SURVIVE because they do what they do. Especially the earliest BB's you talk about like, Quick Ben. Every mage you've met in this series, other than Beak, keeps his secrets, and that's because without secrets what is the point of being a knowledgeable mage?

Fiddler has no knowledge other than what he gets from reading the Deck or his natural affinity to it, and quite frankly if you think that spilling knowledge of every day readings or anything else would have "finished the damn series already" I have think you are utterly wrong.

Quote

Anyways, that's my rant. Sorry, it was long, but I have no one else to vent all this out to.

Good rant.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 28 February 2010 - 09:28 AM

[Silencer]

Removed as the content was no longer relevant.

[ritchiediaz]

Some things for the OP to think about, based on my own experience with the books.

There will always be subjective taste; it appears that Erikson's verbose style where he likes to discuss philosophy, determinism, civilization and all that entails and probably most fundamentally 'why are we here?' interferes with your desire for a 'ripping yarn'. It can be frustrating I agree, especially when some of the things that Steve obviously places a lot of value on you may not agree with.

Due to the depth in the MBOTF series, I very rarely make definitive judgements on a book without having had at least one single re-read, usually in context. Have you re-read Dust of Dreams yet? Have you re-read Dust of Dreams directly after Deadhouse Gates? The subtelties to this series are staggering, and the amount of times something that I dismissed as incongruous has become clear on a re-read is truly in the hundreds of occasions. Especially on subsequent re-reads.

I had VERY similar reactions to both House of Chains and Toll the Hounds the 1st time I read them. There are still bits in probably all the books that I don't agree with or can criticise, but Steve was never going to please all the people all the time - not on something of this scale.

One thing I can urge you to do is don't despair - I don't think Steve will let us down with The Crippled God, however I do think that the series is one where if you want the most out of it, you have to invest in it; it's not a Bruckheimer movie where you can just switch off your brain and enjoy the ride; you have to challenge yourself at every turn, the story and character arcs are so complex. Steve has outright stated in interviews that usually his exposition has multiple meanings and angles because there would be little point in exposition otherwise.

Funnily enough I think that maybe ICE gets criticism for NOK and ROTCG for that very reason - his voice is more about telling a gripping tale with action; it's a different voice from Steve to be sure.

I am reserving final judgement on the whole series until the end of The Crippled God, however I have to doff my cap to Steve and Esslemont for having balls to challenge the conventions of the genre at a fundamental level.

[cleantoe]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

That clears up a lot for me. To be honest, I don't think I'll do a re-read of the series. There's too many books. Is it laziness? Yes it is, so I will have to live with the uncertainty and not truly knowing everything it seems everyone else knows.

Some of the other criticisms laid out for the book I also agree with, as I forgot about them, such as all the pages of people seeing their lives literally flash before their eyes--especially characters that I don't care about.

I understand the philosophical stuff that Erikson is trying to get across, and that's fine--I read almost everything, and some parts I just gloss over. Some parts, like the Snake, I just skim through or completely skip. He's just trying too hard with the philosophy in those parts.

There are other parts of the series that also bother me, such as all the pages upon pages of sex. Yes, sex happens, and yes it happens frequently. But seriously, it gets to the point where half the series is about sex and it gets absurd rather quickly. The profanity doesn't bother me much--in fact, it's rather mild compared to what I would be saying in those circumstances, and I conjure mild as to what most normal people would say. I guess I am being kind of judgmental (lots of profanity is okay on the one hand, but lots of sex is not on the other).

Despite me not liking this book very much, I must say I've enjoyed the series a lot. It's like the bastard child of A Song of Ice and Fire and the Wheel of Time. The only disheartening thing I've seen thus far is the theories regarding the content of the next book, and how much of the plotlines won't be closed in the final book so that ICE and SE can keep writing spinoff books.

I haven't read the novellas although I should. But it seems very irritating to me that I will not be getting the full experience of the series without reading more books and without reading subsequent series that will tie up plotlines (for instance, there is no way in hell Karsa's story will be finished in the next book, and he's one of the best characters in my opinion).

Now, to H.D. :

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Why are the Barghast NOT a waste of space and why DO they matter?

Nothing you said makes their plotline matter. Their plotline, in fact, is meaningless. There are two things that matter: 1) Tool, and 2) Tool's children.

Both Tool's effective reincarnation and descent into what I would think is madness from grief could have been handled without all the Barghast buildup. It took too long to happen, and considering this is the book before the finale, it took up valuable space that could have been used to further other plotlines (such as furthering the Tool or his children's plotlines). And was the hobbling scene necessary? In my opinion, no. In your opinion, yes. That's fine. But look what came of it: She was hobbled, then escaped, and then was instantly killed along with her brother. Did we need all that just to kill those characters off in a few lines? I understand the need to show the horror and the ultimately futile flip-flop of their society and culture, but aside from showing the "horror" of what they did before, their entire presence was, in effect, worthless vis-a-vis furthering the plot of the entire book.

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You skip over parts and yet still judge them? ...The Snake is comparable to the Chain of Dogs, which has to be one of the greatest entries in Malaz history.

I beg to differ, kind sir. I see your point, though. Both were survivors treking a long distance, slowly getting picked off by the enemy. That's where the similarities stop. The Chain of Dogs was awesome to read. The Snake was not, although I've been repeatedly told that on a re-read it is. But guess what? I didn't have to re-read the Chain of Dogs. It was uber-awesome/tragic without a re-read. And I did start out reading about the Snake, and I started skimming/skipping when I felt that I couldn't force myself to read it due to boredom. You think I just randomly judged it out of the blue? No, I started reading at first, was disgusted by its mediocre pace and seeming non-relevance to the rest of the book...and, most importantly, I got sick of reading about three marches in the same book. Perhaps I was too eager to skim the chapters, and in retrospect, I should have read them, but that doesn't mean anything. To me, they were boring to read and I did not enjoy reading those parts. So I skipped them. If you beg to differ, then that is your right and your opinion.

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Why do they do what they do? They SURVIVE because they do what they do. Especially the earliest BB's you talk about like, Quick Ben. Every mage you've met in this series, other than Beak, keeps his secrets, and that's because without secrets what is the point of being a knowledgeable mage?

There are some secrets that need to be kept. Quick Ben and his 12 souls are one thing that he should never tell anyone. Telling Tavore that she killed her own sister is another, although I hate her character so much I hope she gets told anyways.


Things that don't need to be kept secret are stuff such as what Fiddler's last reading of the Deck meant. Why was he hiding what it meant? Why did it spell certain doom even though no one could have foreseen encountering the Short Tails? Why did this affect Tavore's decision? It's stupid secrets like this that SE intentionally makes cliffhangers to keep our interest. The series is damn good and I'm glad I read it, but for crying out loud, not every secret needs to be a secret!


Which reminds me. Someone mentioned in response to me that Fiddler avoids Deck readings because it attracts power, something he wants to avoid. That's understandable, but why did he slowly stop doing the deck readings altogether when he used to do them damn near every night when he was in the Bridgeburners? Not wanting to do one with 13 is understandable, I'd run too. But what about the smaller readings he was asked to do and he would always whine about it and stuff? Before he was eager, and now he just whines.

Err...rant v2.0 is now over.

This post has been edited by cleantoe: 28 February 2010 - 01:46 PM