[The Seguleh 46th]

Ulrik, on 09 April 2010 - 12:13 AM, said:

DoD boring? I dont understand your kung-fu...

More barghast! (sadly, 90% of them is dead as Zed)
More philosophing, more regular soldiers POV!
More Torrent! (OK, Im joking I dont like that brat)

And bored people, choke with it

Lol! Nice! Naw, not boring at all to me, just very, very dark, IMO. I just had more a vision of an ominous cloud overhead the whole time, where in other books there was some room to breathe between the brutality, convergances, revelations, etc. I think the Toc/Tool thing really got to me, but obviously that is what the author wanted. A very good book IMO, though, yet out of nine, there is always one to be the fave (DG!) and one to be the not fave.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 09 April 2010 - 12:37 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

its more like they have to inhabit bodies around them because if they take their true forms they find themselves chained in the shadow realm all over again. its not that they're soletaken, they just have to possess bodies other than their real ones if they want to stay mobile

[blackzoid]

I'm pretty certain that Rake killed Draconus in order to get Dragnipur off him.
To suggest that he would do it because Draconus was banging his mom sounds extraordinary petty and soap-operish.

Dragnipur itself was much more important than the emotional stress of having someone bang your mom I believe.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 09 April 2010 - 09:22 AM

[worry]

So was Rake's primary aim...in all the ancient history aspects of what he did (drink from Tiam, chaining Draconus within Dragnipur) all about protecting the Tiste Andii? It's difficult to reconcile the ambitious, fairly ruthless Rake of all the historical bits with the noble, even sacrificial Rake of the present. I'm not saying it doesn't fit, just that there's a lot I still want to know about his personal evolution. I don't chalk it up to the ennui of quasi-immortality, though he's certainly gained some wisdom and some (wry) perspective that seems to have escaped many of his contemporaries.

[Ulrik]

Endest Sillan in TtH see his as ever protecting Andii - from Kharkhanas exodus, from his POV all led to protectin TA. And well, we must admit, that Dragnipur is really good weapon to protecting them. Ascendents and gods have tendency to come back...but from Dragnipur no-one returns. And Draconus was dangerous...to Rake, to Andii...yeah, its pretty selfish, but..."it was for protection".

[M'ichael]

I have to say, that Dust of Dreams is my least favourite book so far. TtH had also very boring POVs, but the final was very good. DoD was mostly boring and due to the cliffhanger end, the finale does not outweigh the endless sensless boring pages where nothing happens. Whereas the first 130 pages are great, but instantly after the Bonehunters leaving Lether it gets targe. Not to mention the senseless barghast and the snake and so on.

This post has been edited by M'ichael: 09 April 2010 - 10:55 AM

[Ulrik]

M, on 09 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have to say, that Dust of Dreams is my least favourite book so far. TtH had also very boring POVs, but the final was very good. DoD was mostly boring and due to the cliffhanger end, the finale does not outweigh the endless sensless boring pages where nothing happens. Whereas the first 130 pages are great, but instantly after the Bonehunters leaving Lether it gets targe. Not to mention the senseless barghast and the snake and so on.

Sorry (its your right to write and read as you wish) but how could you tell that barghast story is sensless? Its deep, dark and damn realistic.
Also POV´s in TtH are IMO crucial for a lot of story arcs. Well...I realize that MBoF is awesome (for me) actually because of those POV´s, because lines like barghast etc. I dont need another heroic soldier story (I like Bonehunters etc), we had enough of them. What I need is deep world with its living denizens...not only chosen heroes. Because thank to story arcs like Murillio, Barghast, Awl... is MBoF so unique.

Senseless?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Ulrik, on 09 April 2010 - 01:12 PM, said:

M, on 09 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have to say, that Dust of Dreams is my least favourite book so far. TtH had also very boring POVs, but the final was very good. DoD was mostly boring and due to the cliffhanger end, the finale does not outweigh the endless sensless boring pages where nothing happens. Whereas the first 130 pages are great, but instantly after the Bonehunters leaving Lether it gets targe. Not to mention the senseless barghast and the snake and so on.

Sorry (its your right to write and read as you wish) but how could you tell that barghast story is sensless? Its deep, dark and damn realistic.
Also POV´s in TtH are IMO crucial for a lot of story arcs. Well...I realize that MBoF is awesome (for me) actually because of those POV´s, because lines like barghast etc. I dont need another heroic soldier story (I like Bonehunters etc), we had enough of them. What I need is deep world with its living denizens...not only chosen heroes. Because thank to story arcs like Murillio, Barghast, Awl... is MBoF so unique.

Senseless?

thats a criticism that gets my hackles up too. now say if he's referring to the barghast themselves being senseless... then yeah i can agree. including them in the story, def not senseless. its basically an attack at the authors intelligence.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 09 April 2010 - 01:23 PM

[a Perfect Rake]

M, on 09 April 2010 - 10:55 AM, said:

I have to say, that Dust of Dreams is my least favourite book so far. TtH had also very boring POVs, but the final was very good. DoD was mostly boring and due to the cliffhanger end, the finale does not outweigh the endless sensless boring pages where nothing happens. Whereas the first 130 pages are great, but instantly after the Bonehunters leaving Lether it gets targe. Not to mention the senseless barghast and the snake and so on.

I have to agree...I want to be a fanboy, but I just can't. Read MoI, HoC, RG...then Read TtH or DoD. The former books are long, and stuff actually happens. They are incredible books. The latter books are long, and it's all inner thoughts, reflections, and monologues. Not so great anymore...

As much as it pains me to say it, I seriously think the firs two thirds of TtH and DoD were almost completely useless. What events did occur could have been told in a much, much more interesting way.

[worry]

how dare these characters have thoughts about the major world-shaping events that are erupting around them. thinking is totally icky.

[worry]

i mean if you want to think, go right on ahead and do it, that's your business. but please keep that nonsense out of BOOKS for god's sake. the last holy bastion of thoughtlessness left, and these deep thinkers wanna ruin it all to hell.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I think they were supposed to fight more dragons. Lots and lots of dragons.

MOAR.

[Salt-Man Z]

worrywort, on 09 April 2010 - 08:09 PM, said:

how dare these characters have thoughts about the major world-shaping events that are erupting around them.

Well, that would be more interesting than who they're going to sleep with or what they're having to drink or what that dead animal is or whatever.

Also, I love how the rebuttal for "Having characters sit around internal monologuing for a whole chapter bored me" is somehow "Dur hur thinking is bad."

[worry]

It wasn't a rebuttal, since there was no worthwhile argument. The notion that a book of all media shouldn't include so much reflection and internal monologue is ludicrous. Thank goodness most of the MBotF eschews first person narrative, or it could have wrinkled some unwilling brains! I don't mind disagreements at all, but this false dichotomy between action/events vs. THOUGHT rubbed me the wrong way. I don't apologize for that at all. I think I've been pretty fair-minded and polite to other DoD detractors, but the notion that I can't enjoy the later books as much as DG and MOI without being a "fanboy," or that I shouldn't enjoy them because so much of them is "useless," is an opinion frankly worthy of scorn. So I do think Doc, in that one post at least, was willfully calling out those who enjoyed the later books. I don't appreciate the name-calling, I don't appreciate the simplistic, callow reading that ignores all context of WHY we were getting these POVs, and I certainly don't appreciate the presumption that we all ought to find action more interesting than people ("Read MoI, HoC, RG...then Read TtH or DoD." As if we haven't already.). The tone was willfully condescending and anti-intellectual at heart, and sarcasm is my honest reaction to that. Anyway, Doc also started the thread about death having less meaning, which I found a lot less abrasive and even thoughtful (for shame, Doc!), so it wasn't personal beyond this one post, or really any kind of big deal at all.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 April 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

its more like they have to inhabit bodies around them because if they take their true forms they find themselves chained in the shadow realm all over again. its not that they're soletaken, they just have to possess bodies other than their real ones if they want to stay mobile

I understand that, but i was under the impression that they were BOTH inhabiting one body, and that was either OF a Soletaken Andii, or they created the Andii into a Soletaken via possession. Don't understand how two can become one, but it's cool anyways! Like i said, i may be way off here, so just wondering if someone to help me out. Maybe there's a thread somewhere on this subject (?), as i would hate to interrupt this entertaining debate of DOD!

[Sinisdar Toste]

The Seguleh 46th, on 10 April 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 April 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

its more like they have to inhabit bodies around them because if they take their true forms they find themselves chained in the shadow realm all over again. its not that they're soletaken, they just have to possess bodies other than their real ones if they want to stay mobile

I understand that, but i was under the impression that they were BOTH inhabiting one body, and that was either OF a Soletaken Andii, or they created the Andii into a Soletaken via possession. Don't understand how two can become one, but it's cool anyways! Like i said, i may be way off here, so just wondering if someone to help me out. Maybe there's a thread somewhere on this subject (?), as i would hate to interrupt this entertaining debate of DOD!

iirc, the idea that they were inhabiting one andii body or w/e was just olar ethil wildly speculating on their nature

[Ulrik]

Jesus, Im re-reading TtH. Every part of Nimander is important, every part reflects change of Tiste Andii, every part prepares for return of MD. and DoD? Damn, I wrote enough about that...senseless....useless...jesus, I like so constuctive critic.




Yeah, more dragons And some young apprentice destined to be king! Aaaand..big battles! In each chapter! And dont forget dragons! And werevolfs. I have it! THERE ARE NO VAMPIRES! Last was in MoI, now I understand that wave of refusal! Donnt worry, they will marry one day...I mean Bauchelian and Korbal...

[a Perfect Rake]

worrywort, on 09 April 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

It wasn't a rebuttal, since there was no worthwhile argument. The notion that a book of all media shouldn't include so much reflection and internal monologue is ludicrous. Thank goodness most of the MBotF eschews first person narrative, or it could have wrinkled some unwilling brains! I don't mind disagreements at all, but this false dichotomy between action/events vs. THOUGHT rubbed me the wrong way. I don't apologize for that at all. I think I've been pretty fair-minded and polite to other DoD detractors, but the notion that I can't enjoy the later books as much as DG and MOI without being a "fanboy," or that I shouldn't enjoy them because so much of them is "useless," is an opinion frankly worthy of scorn. So I do think Doc, in that one post at least, was willfully calling out those who enjoyed the later books. I don't appreciate the name-calling, I don't appreciate the simplistic, callow reading that ignores all context of WHY we were getting these POVs, and I certainly don't appreciate the presumption that we all ought to find action more interesting than people ("Read MoI, HoC, RG...then Read TtH or DoD." As if we haven't already.). The tone was willfully condescending and anti-intellectual at heart, and sarcasm is my honest reaction to that. Anyway, Doc also started the thread about death having less meaning, which I found a lot less abrasive and even thoughtful (for shame, Doc!), so it wasn't personal beyond this one post, or really any kind of big deal at all.

I apologize, my language was too harsh. I don't believe anyone is wrong for enjoying the parts that I did not. I really do hope that I can come to enjoy them with re reads.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I for one shall be reading all harsh criticism of Dust of Dreams with a pinch of salt, and the knowing that Bob the Critic is suffering from pre-emptive MBotF withdrawals. One more book, fellas, and then you'll have to cross your fingers for the next series from The Big E to shred. Go cuddle MoI.

[worry]

a Perfect ----, on 10 April 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

worrywort, on 09 April 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

It wasn't a rebuttal, since there was no worthwhile argument. The notion that a book of all media shouldn't include so much reflection and internal monologue is ludicrous. Thank goodness most of the MBotF eschews first person narrative, or it could have wrinkled some unwilling brains! I don't mind disagreements at all, but this false dichotomy between action/events vs. THOUGHT rubbed me the wrong way. I don't apologize for that at all. I think I've been pretty fair-minded and polite to other DoD detractors, but the notion that I can't enjoy the later books as much as DG and MOI without being a "fanboy," or that I shouldn't enjoy them because so much of them is "useless," is an opinion frankly worthy of scorn. So I do think Doc, in that one post at least, was willfully calling out those who enjoyed the later books. I don't appreciate the name-calling, I don't appreciate the simplistic, callow reading that ignores all context of WHY we were getting these POVs, and I certainly don't appreciate the presumption that we all ought to find action more interesting than people ("Read MoI, HoC, RG...then Read TtH or DoD." As if we haven't already.). The tone was willfully condescending and anti-intellectual at heart, and sarcasm is my honest reaction to that. Anyway, Doc also started the thread about death having less meaning, which I found a lot less abrasive and even thoughtful (for shame, Doc!), so it wasn't personal beyond this one post, or really any kind of big deal at all.

I apologize, my language was too harsh. I don't believe anyone is wrong for enjoying the parts that I did not. I really do hope that I can come to enjoy them with re reads.

like i said, no big deal at all in the scheme of things. mostly i'm just a big fan of sarcasm for any occasion, eg. on the internet, at funerals, at job interviews, during marriage vows, etc.