[Abberon]

eng lng rip, on 23 March 2010 - 06:25 PM, said:

if enuff ppl dont get something whos fault is that?

QFT

[Illuyankas]

It's still yours.

[Sinisdar Toste]

eng lng rip, on 23 March 2010 - 06:25 PM, said:

I think he meant "miserabilist nihilist" which means someone who enjoys being depressed and believes in nothing.

lol no i meant what i said. i think the book evinces a life-denying focus on the dark and the dreary aspects of the ~human condition~ to the unreasonable exclusion of allllll else

irrelevant plotlines? remember redmask? how irrelevant did he turn out to be?

considering he p much rewrote this storyline twice itb quite a bit?
what? how do you come to the conclusion that this storyline was rewritten twice? do you have some kind of mind-link with SE? redmask was not at all irrelevant and connected in a big way to DoD.

But I'm beginning to think "pointless" is the most over-used, misguided complaint about this book, and a frustrating stand-in for "I didn't get it".

if enuff ppl dont get something whos fault is that?
judging by this thread i'd say that there is a vast majority that did get it, and a minority that didn't. not quite enough to say that the fault is with the author

[Abberon]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 March 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

judging by this thread i'd say that there is a vast majority that did get it, and a minority that didn't. not quite enough to say that the fault is with the author

You have to keep in mind that only the most die-hard SE fans post here. The vast majority of SE readers have never looked here. It's unlikely you'll get the same sort of fair criticism on this forum that you would get from the majority of readers.

The fact that this thread exists and that there are plenty of people echoing the OP's opinion shows there were some issues a lot of people had with the book.

Everyone's entitled to like it, but IMO there were HUGE parts that I would have happily skipped over and feel I would have missed nothing for it. To spend the entire book following mostly the Bonehunters only to gloss over them in the final conflict and leave us with a pointless cliffhanger seemed pretty sloppy in my mind. The cliffhanger was totally unecessary seeing as though we know the Nah'ruk lost anyways.

I've ALWAYS finished the books in this series and been quite happy and satisfied to wait for the next. This time I was hugely disappointed and desperately hoping SE has some sort of master plan to salvage it in the end. Something along the lines of a DHG or TTH ending or better is what I expect....no DEMAND! lol
,

[globish rip]

what? how do you come to the conclusion that this storyline was rewritten twice? do you have some kind of mind-link with SE? redmask was not at all irrelevant and connected in a big way to DoD.

i didnt mean literally rewritten as in revised & edited lol - i meant that he revisited the same ground. having both the destriant for the kccm & non-redmask awl in the same book felt really 'pointless' since both seemed to cover really similar thematic areas & have really similar thought processes/povs. & that gets back to my point abt miserablism like why have yet more last-of-their-people-ruminating-on-the-savagery-and-futility-of-life type characters saying p much the same things. over & over & over. anyway i know im partly at fault for not clearly remembering the distinction btw redmask & surviving awl dude who isnt redmask but "a big way" feels like a stretch

also a lot of the stuff w/ the awl (which was kinda zzzz in the 1st place) is reworked w/ the barghast i think. too many plains tribe ppl @ odds with modernity or w/e

[worry]

A cliffhanger is inherently contrived, and inherently supposed to invoke feelings of dissatisfaction. That IS the point, no other is necessary, so if you're looking for something else then you're mistaking what a cliffhanger is. It's a deliberate sowing of frustration for a story half-told. While I don't agree personally with your wording (messy, sure, but sloppy? no way!), the fact that you desperately hope SE has something strong in store for the end tells me the cliffhanger worked, regardless of the sour taste it left in you. If you quit the series now, though, I would be fairly impressed with your gumption, to be honest.

What I don't understand is how anyone could get through the eight previous books with satisfaction more or less, come to DoD, and then be left with the impression that SE can't or won't (really??) pay off everything he appropriately can in the finale. This pessimism seems completely oddball to me, but oh well. I believe that those of us who liked DoD will be awed by The Crippled God, and those who didn't enjoy DoD will be in for a pleasant surprise.

[Abberon]

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

A cliffhanger is inherently contrived, and inherently supposed to invoke feelings of dissatisfaction. It's a deliberate sowing of frustration for a story half-told.

A cliffhanger sows frustration to build anticipation for the following volume. The frustration is meant to stem from your needing to know what happens next. My dissatisfaction stems from pretty much the whole novel altogether. It was extremely boring, long winded (even for SE) and the ending seemed (again IMO pretty half-baked). I got the distinct impression that it was rushed.

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

While I don't agree personally with your wording (messy, sure, but sloppy? no way!), the fact that you desperately hope SE has something strong in store for the end tells me the cliffhanger worked, regardless of the sour taste it left in you.

It was more the 8 books previous that I read that did that. I've loved the series thus far, but DoD left me wondering whether SE had envisioned a conclusion envisioned for the 10 book series or if he just mostly wrote 8 books and then figured he should wrap it up after that. I'm worried about his ability to tie together a lot of the seemingly unrelated plot lines into a cohesive ending.

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

What I don't understand is how anyone could get through the eight previous books with satisfaction more or less, come to DoD, and then be left with the impression that SE can't or won't (really??) pay off everything he appropriately can in the finale. This pessimism seems completely oddball to me, but oh well. I believe that those of us who liked DoD will be awed by The Crippled God, and those who didn't enjoy DoD will be in for a pleasant surprise.

In that I completely agree with you. SE and ICE's world has blown me away throughout and I eagerly await the final chapter. I hope and believe that the Crippled God will, instead of starting slow and SLOWLY building up like most of the series, start off strong and knock me off my feet from the start to the end. Having loved most of the 8 books before should be a testament to how boring DoD was in comparison (IMO) and I hope it was just an anomaly. DoD was so bad, however, that it does cause me worry :*(

This post has been edited by Abberon: 23 March 2010 - 11:00 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

SE has addressed concerns of his ability to finish it off with justice directly. he's said that he's had the final scene of tCG in his mind since the beginning and that, following the pattern of the earlier books being one half build-up, one half payoff(roughly), DoD is all build-up and tCG all payoff.

i have no doubts at all that the CG will be a killer novel

edit: me, from the first page of this thread

Quote

im sure that steve is completely aware of everyones expectations and the amount of pressure he is under to make tCG one of the best books of the genre. i don't expect him to fail us, not when every interview he's done conveys an attitude of utter confidence about his ability to nail the climax and resolution of this series. this thing is his magnum opus, and if you think you're emotions are hung on it, just imagine how much his are. his entire adult life has pretty much been leading up to this book, as he has said, so i imagine my trust in his writing skills will be rewarded. perhaps all the thematic/philosophic meandering that goes in characters heads will gain a complete picture element that suddenly makes us all say, "ohhhhhhhhhhh" and nod our heads. but that's not likely. either way i enjoy it because its part of a complete reality.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 23 March 2010 - 11:36 PM

[Illuyankas]

Abberon, on 23 March 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

A cliffhanger is inherently contrived, and inherently supposed to invoke feelings of dissatisfaction. It's a deliberate sowing of frustration for a story half-told.

A cliffhanger sows frustration to build anticipation for the following volume. The frustration is meant to stem from your needing to know what happens next. My dissatisfaction stems from pretty much the whole novel altogether. It was extremely boring, long winded (even for SE) and the ending seemed (again IMO pretty half-baked). I got the distinct impression that it was rushed.

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

While I don't agree personally with your wording (messy, sure, but sloppy? no way!), the fact that you desperately hope SE has something strong in store for the end tells me the cliffhanger worked, regardless of the sour taste it left in you.

It was more the 8 books previous that I read that did that. I've loved the series thus far, but DoD left me wondering whether SE had envisioned a conclusion envisioned for the 10 book series or if he just mostly wrote 8 books and then figured he should wrap it up after that. I'm worried about his ability to tie together a lot of the seemingly unrelated plot lines into a cohesive ending.

worrywort, on 23 March 2010 - 09:17 PM, said:

What I don't understand is how anyone could get through the eight previous books with satisfaction more or less, come to DoD, and then be left with the impression that SE can't or won't (really??) pay off everything he appropriately can in the finale. This pessimism seems completely oddball to me, but oh well. I believe that those of us who liked DoD will be awed by The Crippled God, and those who didn't enjoy DoD will be in for a pleasant surprise.

In that I completely agree with you. SE and ICE's world has blown me away throughout and I eagerly await the final chapter. I hope and believe that the Crippled God will, instead of starting slow and SLOWLY building up like most of the series, start off strong and knock me off my feet from the start to the end. Having loved most of the 8 books before should be a testament to how boring DoD was in comparison (IMO) and I hope it was just an anomaly. DoD was so bad, however, that it does cause me worry :*(

He says at the beginning of DoD that it's the equivalent of Book 1 and Book 2 of any of his other novels. That makes TCG Book 3 and Book 4, and how many of the Malazan books have a second half that exploded your socks into orbit? Now imagine a whole book of that.

DoD is just a double instance of that slow buildup, and TCG is going to be a double instance of the balls-to-the-wall crazy-ass convergence climatic ending. Which will be awesome.

[Puck]

Sinisdar Toste, on 23 March 2010 - 11:35 PM, said:

SE has addressed concerns of his ability to finish it off with justice directly. he's said that he's had the final scene of tCG in his mind since the beginning and that, following the pattern of the earlier books being one half build-up, one half payoff(roughly), DoD is all build-up and tCG all payoff.

Yeah, I have bookmarked this particular interview just in case, so here it is

Also, my favourite part of the interview quoted, just in case:

Quote

Having said all that, the only thing that rankled me in some of the reviews was the expression of doubt regarding my ability to pull off this finale, to which I respond: for fuck sake, there's been nine books so far, and each one has delivered the punch I intended (even if some readers objected to some of those punches), so where does this doubt come from? I'll deliver. I always have and there's no sign of stumbling this time around. Yeesh.

As far as I'm concerned, I enjoyed DoD for it was - a build-up. It had it's lengths. But so did the previous books. I certainly thouroughly enjoyed the Snake storyline und didn't mind most of the other things that are being mentioned. Now I'm just chilling out and waiting for tCG, hoping QB will get a POV chapter or two and reserving the bitching for when I finally turn the last page.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Puck, on 24 March 2010 - 12:12 AM, said:

Also, my favourite part of the interview quoted, just in case:

Quote

Having said all that, the only thing that rankled me in some of the reviews was the expression of doubt regarding my ability to pull off this finale, to which I respond: for fuck sake, there's been nine books so far, and each one has delivered the punch I intended (even if some readers objected to some of those punches), so where does this doubt come from? I'll deliver. I always have and there's no sign of stumbling this time around. Yeesh.

my favourite too

gotta love the mans chutzpah!

[Salt-Man Z]

Okay, how the crap can people be complaining about DoD not answering any questions? We've now had pretty much spelled out for us:

• the destiny of Stormy & Gesler (from DG/BH)
  
• the fate of the Barghast (from MoI)
  
• why Rake killed Draconus
  
• what's up with the otataral dragon (from HoC)
  
• Tavore's plan (BH)
  
• who Telorast and Curdle are (BH)
  
• what all those Sky Keeps were doing in the Imperial Warren (BH)
  
• what the deal was with Redmask (RG)
  
• who the Shake are (RG)

And that's just off the top of my head! Not to mention what the Elder Gods are up to, more information about Icarium, and the answer to why there have been so many Chainings of the Crippled God.

For me, DoD was verifiable proof that SE will be able to tie up pretty much everything in TCG (aside from the threads he's leaving for ICE.)

[The Seguleh 46th]

Salt-Man Z, on 08 April 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Okay, how the crap can people be complaining about DoD not answering any questions? We've now had pretty much spelled out for us:

• the destiny of Stormy & Gesler (from DG/BH)
• the fate of the Barghast (from MoI)
• why Rake killed Draconus
• what's up with the otataral dragon (from HoC)
• Tavore's plan (BH)
• who Telorast and Curdle are (BH)
• what all those Sky Keeps were doing in the Imperial Warren (BH)
• what the deal was with Redmask (RG)
• who the Shake are (RG)

And that's just off the top of my head! Not to mention what the Elder Gods are up to, more information about Icarium, and the answer to why there have been so many Chainings of the Crippled God.

For me, DoD was verifiable proof that SE will be able to tie up pretty much everything in TCG (aside from the threads he's leaving for ICE.)

Great points! I really need to do a re-read though, as i don't remember reading why there were so many chainings of TCG. His body being scattered across the world, maybe? Anyways, like i said before, a great book, but my least fave simply for the sheer emotional weight of this volume, whereas the others were a bit more comical at times. Still, does NOT detract from the great overall story though, just a personal quibble of mine, and a very minor one at that.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 08 April 2010 - 07:13 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

The Seguleh 46th, on 08 April 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

i don't remember reading why there were so many chainings of TCG. His body being scattered across the world, maybe?

Yeah, I didn't put that under the "spelled out" list because it's not explicitly stated. But we do know that there have been multiple chainings, and we (now) know that pieces of Kaminsod's body are scattered across 7 continents. Seems like easy math to me.

The book had its issues, don't get me wrong, but I haven't been this excited about a MBotF entry since The Bonehunters. At that point, I was thrilled to see all of the various threads starting to weave together. Now I'm excited to see SE start to tie them all off.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Salt-Man Z, on 08 April 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Okay, how the crap can people be complaining about DoD not answering any questions? We've now had pretty much spelled out for us:

• the destiny of Stormy & Gesler (from DG/BH)
  
• the fate of the Barghast (from MoI)
  
• why Rake killed Draconus
  
• what's up with the otataral dragon (from HoC)
  
• Tavore's plan (BH)
  
• who Telorast and Curdle are (BH)
  
• what all those Sky Keeps were doing in the Imperial Warren (BH)
  
• what the deal was with Redmask (RG)
  
• who the Shake are (RG)

And that's just off the top of my head! Not to mention what the Elder Gods are up to, more information about Icarium, and the answer to why there have been so many Chainings of the Crippled God.

For me, DoD was verifiable proof that SE will be able to tie up pretty much everything in TCG (aside from the threads he's leaving for ICE.)

We have an answer on why Rake killed Draconus, what Tavore's plan is (other than having something to do with maybe freeing the Sod) and who Telorast and Curdle are? I thought those were all still up in the air.

[Salt-Man Z]

Well, we've been given what amount to answers (if not fully-complete answers) assuming the sources can be trusted (which of course they almost never can be.) It's implied that Rake went up against Draconus at least in part simply because Draccy was banging his Mom. Tavore's plan certainly appears to be to unchain the Crippled God. You're right that we don't really get any identities for Telorast and Curdle (having just looked over that part of the book again) but we get a fairly hefty infodump of their past.

Nitpicking aside, my point remains that it's ridiculous to argue that DoD doesn't resolve any mysteries, because there is a lot of stuff explained or hinted at in this volume. Probably more than in any other volume, I'd wager; and the proportion of new questions raised to old questions answered is arguably at an all-time low.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yea I'm a fan of DoD, I just read your post and was like "wft did I miss?"...I don't remember the Rake/Draconus thing in particular.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'm pretty sure it was in one of the "Elder Gods chillin' and chattin'" sections that I loved so much.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Yeah, i got the impression too that Rake did it for the Draconus banging MD thing, but there is obviously (well, at least probably anyhow) more of a reason then that, but does seem as likely a reason at this point as any. Telorast and Curdle being twin dragons working together outside of the Eleint norm of betrayal was pretty cool, but i still don't get the "they are one now as a Soletaken Tiste Andii thing". Maybe i am waaay off base there, i don't know.....still a very kickass backstory on them two!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 08 April 2010 - 10:55 PM

[Ulrik]

DoD boring? I dont understand your kung-fu...

More barghast! (sadly, 90% of them is dead as Zed)
More philosophing, more regular soldiers POV!
More Torrent! (OK, Im joking I dont like that brat)

And bored people, choke with it