Help
RJ does not write epic fantasy. It's quaint light and cliched. At best you can read it once how anyone can reread is beyond me. Almost all the characters are minor variations on long-held sterotypical fantasy characters. Also the word epic implies something that is larger than life awe-inspiring something vast in scope and depth. RJ's writing is to be honest little better than a kids book. The only thing that sets it apart is the quality of language. The plots is essentially Goodies vs. baddies. The only question of any value in the series is how long its going to take these outmanned and outmatched goody-2-shoes to defeat bigger stronger more powerful and generally superior enemies.
What is your opinion on the Wheel of Time?
#62 Guest_Caldazar_*
Posted 08 August 2004 - 02:36 PM
Rand's leniency towards women has nothing to do with being noble. He has a serious mental problem about harming women or women being harmed due to him. I fail to see how that is bs.
#63 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 10 June 2004 - 12:33 AM
So does my chess opening against 4-year olds. 
#64 Guest_starnberg_*
Posted 18 December 2004 - 05:29 AM
I can't help thinking of how Kearney's Monarchies of God series was brought to a brutally swift conclusion with the rushed last book, when I hear Jordan saying there's only 2 books left.Why did he start introducing dozens and dozens of women Aes Sedai/seafolk/kin characters late in the day at the expense of the pace of the story which was a major factor in selling the first five books. What the hell are they going to do. Perrin's being pissing about in forests getting jack **** done for three books, Mat's being arsing around in Ebou Dar since 1994,Elayne's taking up the guts of a chapter having a bath and deciding what she's going to wear.and now there's only two books left for Elayne to see off dozens of rebel nobels(whose names we know), for Egwene to take Tar Valon, for Rand to sort out the Seanchan Borderlanders, Forsaken, and win The Last Battle.The frustrating thing is that Jordan could have wrote 13 books without the pace slackening much if he had concentrated more on the main characters. More and more characters does give it a more epic feel but if he wraps it up in 2 more books it's going to be an awful anticlimax. Much worse than Ships from the West was because Kearney's story was so much more compact.
#65 Guest_Drake Labatt_*
Posted 30 June 2004 - 06:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ashnak:
Really, I think the point is that if RJ had written a collection of stories, and historical things like the silmarillion, his story would feel more credible.
Does that mean that ASoIaF lacks cred because GRRM hasn't produced his version of the Silmarillion?
Does that mean THE HYPERION CANTOS lacks cred because Dan Simmons hasn't produced the Silmarillion?
I mean, don't even go there. You can take your foot out of your mouth gracefully.
quote:
the fact that the silmarillion was published long after lotr doesn't alter the fact that most of it was written/noted down long before lotr.
...uhh...
quote:
and I really don't understand people who do not like the silmarillion, it's by far more interesting than lotr, for example... RJ haven't put down the effort similar to that, though, and thus his story feels a bit on the thinnish side. but I agree that RJ would have been readable if he had an editor who compiled his last 4 books into one... fire harriet!
You have absolutely no evidence to state that RJ hasn't put in a lot of effort in creating his background information. On the contrary, we know from various interviews, etc. that he /does/ have a large amount of detail on the various cultures, characters and plots ongoing in The Bloated Epic.
Please. You /do/ know about the WoT encyclopedia right? Oh sure, it's not the Silmarillion, but it's more than say GRRM has put out for ASoIaF!
#66
Cause 
- Elder God
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 6,056
- Joined: 25-December 03
- Location:NYC
Posted 15 July 2004 - 02:35 PM
I love the series. I hate Robert Jordan, will kill him once series is complete. I feel the books were great and then he strated introducing ideas, characters and book ten which are ruining his work.
At the end of bk10 characters were still standing were they were at end of book 9.
His female characters are groing worse. More annoying. The more Cadsuane is allowed to live the more respect i lose for rand. The part were he asks how he can make her intrested in him made afool of him. Does he really believe she was only visiting far madding and not following him.
I dont require infallible characters but i do require some inteligice from rand the main character if that he is. He seems to be getting less and less important. Book ten had him in two chapters.
In all after reading the firts few novels i expected a higher quality of novel than what become of it. I still have to read evrything else he writes though to see how it ends.
At the end of bk10 characters were still standing were they were at end of book 9.
His female characters are groing worse. More annoying. The more Cadsuane is allowed to live the more respect i lose for rand. The part were he asks how he can make her intrested in him made afool of him. Does he really believe she was only visiting far madding and not following him.
I dont require infallible characters but i do require some inteligice from rand the main character if that he is. He seems to be getting less and less important. Book ten had him in two chapters.
In all after reading the firts few novels i expected a higher quality of novel than what become of it. I still have to read evrything else he writes though to see how it ends.
#67 Guest_Drake Labatt_*
Posted 10 June 2004 - 04:36 PM
Jordan deserves to be /trashed/ for how his story has gotten out of control after FoH. (Some can make a case for LoC, but I maintain that the plot diverged into 5000 threads in that book and it was the demarcation point.)
Jordan deserves to be /praised/ for his work and the effect it has had on the entire genre. Maybe China can put down his thesaurus and write RJ a thank-you note if he has time in between lancing boils.
RJ deserves to be /richly/ compensated for his efforts. I'm sure TOR's taken care of that. "Another solid gold toilet seat Mr. Rigney? No problem!"
NS renewed my faith in RJ's ability to bring order to chaos (notably his 50,000 plot threads), but I'm going to need more than that to be entirely satisfied.
Anything else is holier-than-thou rhetoric, which is /always/ total BS, because everyone posting to an INTERNET BULLETIN BOARD ON A WEBSITE DEVOTED TO A YET-UNFINISHED FANTASY SERIES is a big geek that has stooped to the level of getting a big thrill out of stating their opinion to the world, or at least those they think will care, or they think will read it, or something.
Compared to that, RJ, Eddings, Martin, Goodkind or whoever /hardly/ needs a kick in the ass. We all do!
Jordan deserves to be /praised/ for his work and the effect it has had on the entire genre. Maybe China can put down his thesaurus and write RJ a thank-you note if he has time in between lancing boils.
RJ deserves to be /richly/ compensated for his efforts. I'm sure TOR's taken care of that. "Another solid gold toilet seat Mr. Rigney? No problem!"
NS renewed my faith in RJ's ability to bring order to chaos (notably his 50,000 plot threads), but I'm going to need more than that to be entirely satisfied.
Anything else is holier-than-thou rhetoric, which is /always/ total BS, because everyone posting to an INTERNET BULLETIN BOARD ON A WEBSITE DEVOTED TO A YET-UNFINISHED FANTASY SERIES is a big geek that has stooped to the level of getting a big thrill out of stating their opinion to the world, or at least those they think will care, or they think will read it, or something.
Compared to that, RJ, Eddings, Martin, Goodkind or whoever /hardly/ needs a kick in the ass. We all do!
#68 Guest__*
Posted 20 August 2004 - 02:39 PM
Originally posted by thread creator (I assume it was "admi. . . [cough], Cadz:-
. . . . . . . . .
quote:
What is your opinion on the Wheel of Time?
. . . . . . . . .
#69 Guest_Ashnak_*
Posted 30 June 2004 - 03:47 AM
Really, I think the point is that if RJ had written a collection of stories, and historical things like the silmarillion, his story would feel more credible. the fact that the silmarillion was published long after lotr doesn't alter the fact that most of it was written/noted down long before lotr.
and I really don't understand people who do not like the silmarillion, it's by far more interesting than lotr, for example... RJ haven't put down the effort similar to that, though, and thus his story feels a bit on the thinnish side. but I agree that RJ would have been readable if he had an editor who compiled his last 4 books into one... fire harriet!
and I really don't understand people who do not like the silmarillion, it's by far more interesting than lotr, for example... RJ haven't put down the effort similar to that, though, and thus his story feels a bit on the thinnish side. but I agree that RJ would have been readable if he had an editor who compiled his last 4 books into one... fire harriet!
#70 Guest_Izz_*
Posted 26 July 2004 - 07:53 PM
I'm looking forward to the comic book. I'll bet it's going to condense the story a bit and pack in some more action. Plus, the dable bros seem to know what they are doing.
Anyone else as hopeful for the comic as I am?
Of course it is only for New Spring, which isn't supposed to be so terrible anyways.
Anyone else as hopeful for the comic as I am?
Of course it is only for New Spring, which isn't supposed to be so terrible anyways.
#71
Nazaar
- Recruit
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 25-May 04
Posted 30 June 2004 - 06:16 PM
quote:
So what? I couldn't give a crap about the Simarillion, it was one of the most boring and unappealing books I've ever had the misfortune of opening. I don't need a reference manual, and I /shouldn't/ need a reference manual as evidence of an author's dedication. The novels will do just fine thanx.
(Sorry about the long quote, but it's all needed
)Yep, the Silmarillion was really boring. I've never read it all the way through. The novels do just fine on their own. I don't think it was ever intended to be published. I was trying to illustrate the amount of work that went into the world to flesh it out, same with the languages. I think RJ's world needs more work. With JRRT you get the impression that he gives windows on a much bigger picture. With RJ, imho, I feel that he's made the references to try to give that impression, a window painted with a scene, rather than a window to a real scene...
quote:
You wouldn't be saying that if WoT was still at book 4 or 5.
Of course, because he kept on biting without chewing soon after that. I judge a writer on what I see, all of what I see, not the first half of what I can see.
quote:
None of SE's female characters strike me as being well-portrayed.
To tell you the truth I hadn't noticed that. You may be right, but the big difference is that he doesn't spend much time on them, and as a result the possible lack doesn't detract from the story much, if any.
quote:
That is pretty much the hallmark of fantasy stories, and you'd have to go after everyone else.
Is it ? The better modern fantasy authors realise it's a cliche and stay away from it. Even in the minutae, there's a big difference between the lowly peasant who rises above his station, to the farmboy who's born with a burden of a greater destiny, evil to kill, kingdoms who will bow down to him, yada yada yada. For goodness sake, how much of Rand's bitching was almost a clone of Garion's in the Belgariad ?
quote:
He /does/ have the talent to write an epic fantasy story that requires many acres of land to be deforested.
Talent includes a willingness to kill off characters, to realise when you're out of control. Editors can't take all the blame for this.
edit:
quote:
You have absolutely no evidence to state that RJ hasn't put in a lot of effort in creating his background information.
The only evidence I have is that the impression of a fully fledged backstory isn't there, for me. For me, that's all that's important. If he has indeed done a lot of work to make up a history, culture etc, then he isn't effectively using the information, which makes it useless. Actually, it makes it worse than useless, because it's time he could have spent finishing the story, and editing it before he published his drafts.
quote:
Oh sure, it's not the Silmarillion, but it's more than say GRRM has put out for ASoIaF!
1) There's a big difference between the Silmarilion and the WoT Encyclopedia. The WoT Encyc. tells us very little we didn't already know about the world anyway. It can't, because it's published in the middle of the series, and RJ wants us to RAFO. There's very little of the backstories that are what gives a series a sense of history...
2)IIRC the WoT was published after 5-6(?) books. ASoIaF is up to what, 3 ?
#72 Guest_Rallick Nom_*
Posted 16 June 2004 - 09:11 AM
*wanders into thread, glances at Torvald*
Hmm, must be a gay thing.
Hmm, must be a gay thing.
#73 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 15 June 2004 - 07:10 PM
Well I rather enjoy Jordan's series and I am also a computer nerd who has read quite a lot of books so I don't seem to fall into that category.
#74 Guest_FizbansTalking_Hat_*
Posted 10 June 2004 - 10:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LooseCannon:
@Fizban - I'd say that is your own fault about wasting $40. If unsure why not just get the book from the library. I'd hardly put the blame on the author for you spending your own cash on his book.
Hmm, I guess it might be my fault, for investing my time and energy and hard earned money into a series that just went no where in my opinion. Maybe I should have checked them out at the library instead of buying them, btu they remain on my shelf, as a reminder of why I dislike Jordan.
As much as I dislike his work, I will say this, if it werne't for Jordan, Goodkind, and the likes of those authors, we might not have some others. The money they make for their own publishers by being so successfull and seeling so many books, helps to further their investigation into newer and more intriging authors out there. So I guess at the least, the least, I can appreciate that from him, cheers.
#75
Tiste Simeon
- Faith, Heavy Metal & Bacon
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 12,732
- Joined: 08-October 04
- Location:T'North
Posted 04 December 2004 - 08:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
If I'm going to give WOT an honest shot, I don't think I should read ASOIAF 'till after WOT, 'cause from what I've read/heard I wouldn't be able to go back
So I think I'll give WOT book 2 a shot first.
Besides, Amazon.ca says 'A Feast for Crows' isn't coming out until August 3, 2005, and 'The Bonehunters' isn't due till August 23, 2005, and I wouldn't be surprised if both were late ...
A Feast for Crows is beginning to annoy me now... I keep getting emails from Amazon letting me know that yet again the date is going back...
Now, if Erkison does that... 
ASOIAF is really good though, however I still maintain that nothing can ever compare to MBotF - it has completely taken over my life!! I can't read a single book without thinking WWED - What Would Erikson Do?? Ruining me!
A Haunting Poem
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
#76 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 12 November 2004 - 02:46 PM
Crossroads of Twilight came out Jan 2002 I thought and he released a novella this year. Martin's last book came out July 2000. I wouldn't say he is pulling a Martin (sitting on a mountain of burritos painting his toy soldiers collection)
#77 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 17 June 2004 - 02:57 PM
Great Point Loosecannon. I'll try to counter with one of my own. The people drawn to a military life in preindustrialized societies are not necessarily the same as people drawn to the military in a modern industrialized world. What better options are there for intelligent people in the masses of Erikson's world? As complex as it is there is too much I don't know to make any presumptions. e.g. I don't know much about there medical, legal, and education system.
Also, I liked the intelligent soldier for the same reason it stretched credibility. It countered expectation and stereotype. And I really like contrasts.
Also, I liked the intelligent soldier for the same reason it stretched credibility. It countered expectation and stereotype. And I really like contrasts.
#78 Guest_Drake Labatt_*
Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nazaar:
Jordan, imho, has bitten off more than he can chew.
You wouldn't be saying that if WoT was still at book 4 or 5.
quote:
_My_ issues with him.
Talent in epic writing: If you're going to write a 10-15 book epic, you need to be able to reach _conclusions_, in some way. Waypoints on the journey. The main issue in this regard with Jordan is that the only conclusions he reaches tend to be momentary, if they exist at all.
Books often end with battles, fine, but little, if anything, is resolved. Characters die, to be resurrected in the next book.
Jordan has the talent to get the job done, but the problem is he doesn't know what job he's trying to do. The early books are full of plot point resolution. However, he's totally lost control of a lot of his story, which happened circa book 6.
<snip>
quote:
Character potrayal : I'm willing to admit that the characters themselves can actually be quite different, but the mannerisms are ridiculous. The male/female relationships are one dimensional. He simply cannot write romance, or male/female interactions on a sexual level.
You're totally correct. However, in Mr. Rigney's defence, a lot of male writers cannot write accurately about the relationship between men and women. Yeah, that's a weak defence, especially for an author as 'acclaimed' as RJ, but it's all that really can be said.
Men and women behave pretty ridiculously in WoT.
quote:
Compare to Erikson: we have no idea if he's skilled at writing romantic stuff, because _he doesn't try_. Realistically this is the main source of annoyance for his characterisation.
Hetan was a horrible attempt at the Xena gimmick. None of SE's female characters strike me as being well-portrayed. SE is a rookie writer though, and he doesn't do a number of things well. He'll get better with age though, like everyone does.
quote:
Scope: Frankly he's over-reached himself again. He's trying to give an impression of ancient civilisations reaching back into the mists of time, and I don't think it works for him.
I'll disagree here. I think that the background he's laid for Randland is fine, in fact, it's one of his stronger points.
quote:
Tolkien wrote whole languages for his books. The Silmarillion was never intended to be published, it's a summary of all his notes that he wrote for the backstory of his books.
So what? I couldn't give a crap about the Simarillion, it was one of the most boring and unappealing books I've ever had the misfortune of opening. I don't need a reference manual, and I /shouldn't/ need a reference manual as evidence of an author's dedication. The novels will do just fine thanx.
Seriously, if RJ took six months off from the story and created the Trolloc language, who would that impress? No one but the most hardcore geeks. Everyone else would be f'n pissed off that he wasted yet another six months in not moving the story forward.
I sure didn't buy the WoT encyclopedia!
quote:
Erikson play tested his world for years, and wrote about it, and you get the feeling it's _there_ if he wants it.
IMO SE has an excessive amount of detail that borders on the annoying and ridiculous. (Yawn) How many ancient elder races does one story need? How many civilizations have to rise and fall and be discovered as ruins to impress upon the reader that the world is 'lived-in'? How cryptic does he have to make his magic system to impress the 'masses' with his creative genius? It would be much more effective to introduce these background elements as needed, rather than throwing out hundreds of tidbits to tease the audience in the hopes of impressing them.
I think SE's over the top there, but I digress, as this is about RJ.
quote:
Originality of concepts: imho he's actually pretty good when it comes to the overlying fantasy stuff, like the magic system, the Ways, Dreamworld etc. That gets him a few points. The farmboy-with-a-greater-destiny thing is _old_ though, and we have three of them!
You can't go after RJ for using the Ugly Duckling concept. That is pretty much the hallmark of fantasy stories, and you'd have to go after everyone else.
quote:
Battles: the battles are some of the best bits. He does these well, and it's interesting to see his take on how magic would affect large scale battles.
I agree. Dumai's Wells was an awesome scene, one of the best in WoT, if not /the/ best.
quote:
So basically he has talent, but imho it's nowhere near the talent that he needs to pull off what he's attempting.
Wrong. He /does/ have the talent to write an epic fantasy story that requires many acres of land to be deforested. What he doesn't have currently, and hasn't had for five books, is an editor with the balls to stand up to him, slap him silly with his ridiculous manuscripts, and tell him to get back ono track.
#79 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 04 September 2004 - 05:46 PM
Remember how much better the Highlander TV series was than the movies? Adapting Wheel of Time is a good thing, because there is a good story in there. It just needs to be rewritten.
#80 Guest_Unoriginal_*
Posted 31 December 2004 - 07:02 PM
CoT is sitting on my shelf unread as well. Despite disliking most of the charecters I'd still like to know if there's any news on the books that are yet to come out?
