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"Jordan's military background at the Citadel shows nicely in his battle descriptions. Check out the plans Mat outlines for the Battle of Cairhien in book 5 sometime."
Jordan's battles didnt strike me as anything special (neither in the way he describes them nor in terms of tactics used). Certainly nowhere near as good as erikson, kearney, cook, gentle or parker. Remind me, what exactly is so great about mat's plans?
What is your opinion on the Wheel of Time?
#102 Guest_stonesnake_*
Posted 09 June 2004 - 03:15 PM
Ok. I'll bite.
I like Wheel of Time. And I submit that if book sales are any measure of popularity, so do a lot of other people. Now, admittedly, popularity is not an ironclad sign of quality, but neither is it something that can be completely ignored. If millions of people have purchased a book, there is probably a reason. My frustration with Wheel of Time is not in it's content, but in the unavoidable delay in presentation. I started reading the series about a year before Lord of Chaos came out, and let me tell you, waiting two years between installments of a story gets old fast. I submit that anyone who read books nine and ten would have complained a whole lot less if they had been able to go immediately on to book eleven. The problem with those books is not the lack of action, but the fact that we have to wait two more years to see the results of the movements in those books.
My temper gets a little on edge when I hear people tear into Wheel of Time as a sort of literary-elitism or a rabid support of their own particular favorite author. You think George Martin is the finest writer in existence? That's nice. I like the guy. I enjoy his stories. But I disagree with you about his "obvious" superiority. The guy writes a good story, with some stuff I really like, and some other stuff that drives me nuts (major, plot-crucial events happening offscreen and being relayed third-person comes to mind). Jordan has some very interesting ideas... (Tel'aran'rhiod, for example) and some stuff I dislike quite a bit (spending large amount of time on annoying minor characters). But were I to compare the two authors in terms of quality, I would have to say they are roughly in the same league, at best. Every weakness or foible that I can think of in Jordan's work can be matched by a similar weakness in Martin's. Jordan digresses. Martin hasn't quite made the shift from writing tv scripts and short stories to epic novels. Martin has some fascinating characters. Jordan's military background at the Citadel shows nicely in his battle descriptions. Check out the plans Mat outlines for the Battle of Cairhien in book 5 sometime.
(Another minor quibble...Martin doesn't have a background in military history, and his descriptions of battles suffer for it... usually he falls back on just following a single point of view, limiting the view of the battle, or he just passes over it and relays the story of the battle later in the book. Annoying. If you want to write epic fantasy, learn to write a battle well, damn it!)
If it really comes down to a tie-breaker, I'd have to say that Jordan is a better professional novelist than Martin. Getting three books into a series, and then realizing what you've planned for the fourth book isn't going to work, scrapping it, and starting over from scratch on a constantly shifting new idea seems a bit amateurish to me. Not to mention downright infuriating for the fans, who have to wait 6 years or more for the next book, rather than the standard 2.
Erikson is a different story. Frankly, I like his work better than either of the other two authors. He clearly improves style, dialogue, and clarity of the story from the first book to the second and third. He doesn't waste time (Jordan's problem), and he focuses on the important stuff. Not to mention the fact that his world is shaped by demigods, generals, and mages who've lived for centuries. Fourteen year-old knights are not wandering around wooing twelve-year-olds. Hooray. Characters who actually match the scope of their actions; what a concept. Erikson has it all. Cool names, cool characters, a fascinating world, a no-holds-barred storyline, and WOW, he even manages to put out a book every year. Downright amazing in a genre where 2 years is the norm, and some writers take 2 years to realize their prologue isn't what they want it to be.
Enough ranting for now. I like WOT. It's a fun read.
-edited because I noticed a stupid spelling mistake...grr-
I like Wheel of Time. And I submit that if book sales are any measure of popularity, so do a lot of other people. Now, admittedly, popularity is not an ironclad sign of quality, but neither is it something that can be completely ignored. If millions of people have purchased a book, there is probably a reason. My frustration with Wheel of Time is not in it's content, but in the unavoidable delay in presentation. I started reading the series about a year before Lord of Chaos came out, and let me tell you, waiting two years between installments of a story gets old fast. I submit that anyone who read books nine and ten would have complained a whole lot less if they had been able to go immediately on to book eleven. The problem with those books is not the lack of action, but the fact that we have to wait two more years to see the results of the movements in those books.
My temper gets a little on edge when I hear people tear into Wheel of Time as a sort of literary-elitism or a rabid support of their own particular favorite author. You think George Martin is the finest writer in existence? That's nice. I like the guy. I enjoy his stories. But I disagree with you about his "obvious" superiority. The guy writes a good story, with some stuff I really like, and some other stuff that drives me nuts (major, plot-crucial events happening offscreen and being relayed third-person comes to mind). Jordan has some very interesting ideas... (Tel'aran'rhiod, for example) and some stuff I dislike quite a bit (spending large amount of time on annoying minor characters). But were I to compare the two authors in terms of quality, I would have to say they are roughly in the same league, at best. Every weakness or foible that I can think of in Jordan's work can be matched by a similar weakness in Martin's. Jordan digresses. Martin hasn't quite made the shift from writing tv scripts and short stories to epic novels. Martin has some fascinating characters. Jordan's military background at the Citadel shows nicely in his battle descriptions. Check out the plans Mat outlines for the Battle of Cairhien in book 5 sometime.
(Another minor quibble...Martin doesn't have a background in military history, and his descriptions of battles suffer for it... usually he falls back on just following a single point of view, limiting the view of the battle, or he just passes over it and relays the story of the battle later in the book. Annoying. If you want to write epic fantasy, learn to write a battle well, damn it!)
If it really comes down to a tie-breaker, I'd have to say that Jordan is a better professional novelist than Martin. Getting three books into a series, and then realizing what you've planned for the fourth book isn't going to work, scrapping it, and starting over from scratch on a constantly shifting new idea seems a bit amateurish to me. Not to mention downright infuriating for the fans, who have to wait 6 years or more for the next book, rather than the standard 2.
Erikson is a different story. Frankly, I like his work better than either of the other two authors. He clearly improves style, dialogue, and clarity of the story from the first book to the second and third. He doesn't waste time (Jordan's problem), and he focuses on the important stuff. Not to mention the fact that his world is shaped by demigods, generals, and mages who've lived for centuries. Fourteen year-old knights are not wandering around wooing twelve-year-olds. Hooray. Characters who actually match the scope of their actions; what a concept. Erikson has it all. Cool names, cool characters, a fascinating world, a no-holds-barred storyline, and WOW, he even manages to put out a book every year. Downright amazing in a genre where 2 years is the norm, and some writers take 2 years to realize their prologue isn't what they want it to be.
Enough ranting for now. I like WOT. It's a fun read.
-edited because I noticed a stupid spelling mistake...grr-
#103
caladanbrood 
- Ugly on the Inside
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Posted 30 June 2004 - 11:53 PM
quote:
Does that mean that ASoIaF lacks cred because GRRM hasn't produced his version of the Silmarillion?
Does that mean THE HYPERION CANTOS lacks cred because Dan Simmons hasn't produced the Silmarillion?
This was not what he said. He was making a specific point about WoT.
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#105
Darkwatch
- A Strange Human
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- 1.6180339887
Posted 22 October 2004 - 06:35 PM
Well never read it, don't intend to. But I did find something funny that should be here.
Pay attention to the 10th and 11th panels.
http://sluggy.com/da...php?date=040622
Pay attention to the 10th and 11th panels.
http://sluggy.com/da...php?date=040622
The Pub is Always Open
Proud supporter of the Wolves of Winter. Glory be to her Majesty, The Lady Snow.
Cursed Summer returns. The Lady Now Sleeps.
The Sexy Thatch Burning Physicist
Τον Πρωτος Αληθη Δεσποτην της Οικιας Αυτος
Proud supporter of the Wolves of Winter. Glory be to her Majesty, The Lady Snow.
Cursed Summer returns. The Lady Now Sleeps.
The Sexy Thatch Burning Physicist
Τον Πρωτος Αληθη Δεσποτην της Οικιας Αυτος
RodeoRanch said:
You're a rock.
A non-touching itself rock.
A non-touching itself rock.
#106
RodeoRanch
- The Midnight Special
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Posted 30 November 2004 - 10:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
Ok, so I'm on page 179 of EOTW (first go-round for me), right where Egwene says, "Grow up, Garion! Forget the stories and use your eyes." Having devoted precious minutes of my dwindling life reading this _entire_ thread, I'm left with the dreadful feeling that that quote will be heard far too many times before this journey comes to a close.
So far I can't help thinking that I probably would be enjoying this book a lot more if I had read it around the time I first read the Belgariad (junior-high/highschool for me).
At any rate, I intend to soldier on and see what happens .. wish me luck ...
/"coming, C'nedra .."
Just wait until the 11th book.
#107 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 16 June 2004 - 02:36 AM
About Loose's and Eleth's observation:
The opinion of modern soldiers aside, I'm not sure I even agree it.
Not all the soldiers in the Malazan books seem brilliant to me. Erikson just follows around certain officers and exceptional soldiers. This fits in well with Erikson's style since he prefers to focus on role players. Of course the soldiers we see the most are going to be either very intelligent or very powerful.
However, there are plenty of plain speaking and ordinary soldiers in the Malazan books. He just doesn't doddle with them. The Barghast who was a Bridgeburner didn't seem particularly bright (can't remember his name.)
**Very slightly spoilerish****
How about the soldiers in the town Karsa attacked? Or some of the of the officers who couldn't do their jobs...?
The opinion of modern soldiers aside, I'm not sure I even agree it.
Not all the soldiers in the Malazan books seem brilliant to me. Erikson just follows around certain officers and exceptional soldiers. This fits in well with Erikson's style since he prefers to focus on role players. Of course the soldiers we see the most are going to be either very intelligent or very powerful.
However, there are plenty of plain speaking and ordinary soldiers in the Malazan books. He just doesn't doddle with them. The Barghast who was a Bridgeburner didn't seem particularly bright (can't remember his name.)
**Very slightly spoilerish****
How about the soldiers in the town Karsa attacked? Or some of the of the officers who couldn't do their jobs...?
#108
Abyss
- abyssus abyssum invocat
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Posted 16 August 2004 - 01:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RodeoRanch:
We do?
Yes. Sometimes dobermans. Sometimes rottweilers. But mostly pitbulls.
quote:
Where does one put that?
Wait...don't answer that.
If i have to tell you, you don't need to know.
quote:
Poor RJ. He just can't get the love.
He gave up all right to the love with 'Crossroads of Twiddling My Thumbs'.
- Abyss, read it for free, still felt ripped off.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#109 Guest_Richard_*
Posted 02 December 2004 - 01:21 PM
Tiste, you know what they say, 'what doesn't kill you will only ..' 
#110 Guest_Dark Daze_*
Posted 18 August 2004 - 10:40 AM
Fool is talking about EOTW, TGH, and TDR. That's way too far even for me. We need Caldazar in his caped and spandex splendor to fly to Mr. Jordan's rescue and spread the good word of mediocrity.
#111 Guest_LooseCannon_*
Posted 10 June 2004 - 08:16 AM
@Fizban - I'd say that is your own fault about wasting $40. If unsure why not just get the book from the library. I'd hardly put the blame on the author for you spending your own cash on his book.
@NastyMan - You must be exaggerating about the similarity to a children's novel as I don't think anyone has ever made this comparison. You hardly support your cause when you vouch for an author like David Gemmell.
As for the male characters: Lan basically trained Rand, Perrin and Mat for the first bit. Rand, Mat and Perrin are from the same village so they would have the same ideals as they are all men of integrity and honor. What is your complaint, that all the main characters in the book have some form of honor, rather than going around raping, murdering and stealing things?
You are just trying to generalize every character in the series. You haven't even looked at the Aiel, the Aes Sedai, the Seanchan, the Forsaken, Darkfriends, Asha'man and so on.
Your main complaint is that everything in the series is too similar? The characters all feel the same, the countries blend into one another? Well the countries in the WoT have shifted their borders and been called by different names quite a few times in the past 3000 years. Also, try walking from the USA to Canada, do you think you would notice a difference between to the two countries? My point is that nations that are close together are obviously going to blend into one another a fair bit. And Jordan has been pretty obvious about the differences in culture between the different nations.
@NastyMan - You must be exaggerating about the similarity to a children's novel as I don't think anyone has ever made this comparison. You hardly support your cause when you vouch for an author like David Gemmell.
quote:
For one thing there are not 20+ characters. Rand,Mat,Perrin,Lan,Bashere and most others are all the same the only variation is the level of power available to each one. They are all based on the "Death is lighter thana feather, duty heavier than a mountain" template. Reading one is much the same as readingf another. The women much the same as well with their constant Repittion of the word "men".
As for the male characters: Lan basically trained Rand, Perrin and Mat for the first bit. Rand, Mat and Perrin are from the same village so they would have the same ideals as they are all men of integrity and honor. What is your complaint, that all the main characters in the book have some form of honor, rather than going around raping, murdering and stealing things?
You are just trying to generalize every character in the series. You haven't even looked at the Aiel, the Aes Sedai, the Seanchan, the Forsaken, Darkfriends, Asha'man and so on.
quote:
Also if you look at the map you will find that most of the nations are kid of puny. The depth and scope of the WoT is really only skin deep. If you get my meaning. The countries don't strike as being particlarily "real".
Also they're not particularily interesting places. They're historys aren't particlarily well thought out or engaging.
Your main complaint is that everything in the series is too similar? The characters all feel the same, the countries blend into one another? Well the countries in the WoT have shifted their borders and been called by different names quite a few times in the past 3000 years. Also, try walking from the USA to Canada, do you think you would notice a difference between to the two countries? My point is that nations that are close together are obviously going to blend into one another a fair bit. And Jordan has been pretty obvious about the differences in culture between the different nations.
#112
Mort
- Captain
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Posted 16 June 2004 - 12:12 AM
@Loose - all is cool, was just stirring you!
And Rodeo, just don't tell anyone what you've found out...
The Military Republika of Australia is only a few short months away... and then the Kiwis had better start worrying (especially if they win the Bledisloe again...)
And Rodeo, just don't tell anyone what you've found out...
The Military Republika of Australia is only a few short months away... and then the Kiwis had better start worrying (especially if they win the Bledisloe again...)
#113 Guest_Pran Chole_*
Posted 17 July 2004 - 12:46 AM
The great hunt was IMO´the best of his books.
#114 Guest_Falco_*
Posted 29 June 2004 - 07:16 PM
But its not like he can fire his wife...
#115 Guest_FizbansTalking_Hat_*
Posted 09 June 2004 - 01:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rallick Nom:
Since it's such a controversial issue, lets just take a peek at how people feel about it, in such a way we can see the actual numbers.
Well, I'm new, but I'll voice my opinion on this topic b/c I feel passionate about it. I dislike, and really hate this series. I've read the first 4 books, and it just bored me to death. Nothing really happens, and I just dont find myself interested in what happesn to the characters. It's boring and its crap. And it keeps on going, on and on and on. I mean you're on book 11, 12 and you release a PREQUEL, I mean, the original series hasn't even been finished, the least you could do is sum that up and then go back with a new series. I don't know if its publishers, the author himself, or fans which are bleeding this series dry, but I find it awful.
He has his loyal following and if you're a fan, you're certainly entitled to it, but not me. Ah well, different strokes, for different folks.
#116
drinksinbars
- Soletaken
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Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:30 AM
@nazzar some good points but just one tiny point about your david gemmel point, he writes for a certain type of reader in a style he knows works and one which aloows him to deliver short novels to a mainstream audience in a relativley short amount of time. he has never tried to write an epic and so we cannot judge whether or not he could.
in regards to WOT some good points especially about conclusions, jordan needs things to occur in his books, as it is they feel more like minutes from a bunch of seperate and boring meetings.
in regards to WOT some good points especially about conclusions, jordan needs things to occur in his books, as it is they feel more like minutes from a bunch of seperate and boring meetings.
#117 Guest_Rallick Nom_*
Posted 11 June 2004 - 03:24 PM
Grander than Tolkien? Laughable. Jordan hasn't put nearly as much work as Tolkien into his world, and I've eve flipped through Jordan's encyclopedia thing.
I hate The Silmarillion, but it's size, scope, and magnitude eats up virtually every other popular novel in history.
I hate The Silmarillion, but it's size, scope, and magnitude eats up virtually every other popular novel in history.
#118 Guest_Floridon_*
Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:41 AM
WoT is the first series that I do not intend to finish even though I have read 8 books so far.
Jordan (as well as Feist) is a typical example of a writer with a great idea and a mission. But
as the ideas run out and the mission fade, his talent (or rather lack hereof) is laid bare.
Jordan (as well as Feist) is a typical example of a writer with a great idea and a mission. But
as the ideas run out and the mission fade, his talent (or rather lack hereof) is laid bare.
#119 Guest__*
Posted 20 August 2004 - 12:10 PM
yes, that of course, and
quote:I mean, how can you not find that funny?
Please disregard Fool's last remark. He is clearly confused and meant exactly what I said he did.
IT'S TRUE. IT'S TRUE.
#120 Guest_starnberg_*
Posted 17 November 2004 - 04:34 AM
Anyone know when New Spring is coming out on paperback. 22 euros for the hardback is outrageous
