[Korbas]

I have class, away for 5 hours or so.

[Rashan]

Here catching up. I'll be off and on all day.

[Rashan]

Mockra, on 09 December 2009 - 07:25 AM, said:

So you're saying ONE OF THE VIPERS is the assassin Fener? Bill for example is gonna turn on his own people?


Because if every non-viper revealed, the bride would kill all of them for revealing ala O-Ren. That would leave only the bride, and the assassin and the vipers left alive, since the assassin wouldn't dare reveal. The remaining vipers would see who is not of their group, and lynch both the assassin and the bride in subsequent nights.

Of course, this would only work if the vipers can communicate, and the bride will kill any old reveal. That's two big "ifs". But you took a different tack on what I meant. Why would the assassin be exempt from my goofy scenario?

Explain.

But for now, that looks like a slip.

Vote Fener

To Quote everyone's favorite GL


"The Fuck?"

[Liosan]

Back. I agree Mockra's plan has lots of holes in it, but since they have been pointed out several times, I won't respout them.

I don't quite get Sorrit's reasoning about why staying in your alt would imply a FM, so if he could explain it would be nice. While an FM might explain the lack of deaths last night, there are many other possible reasons for it.

I think we are getting too hung up on this mechanic of revealing followed by death. It really doesn't provide us with much information unless the day kill isn't automated, in which case we can seriously narrow down the suspects for the Bride, which would have been me, Tellan, Sorrit, Korbas, Kalse, Fener.

I am not sure we can go on that assumption, especially based on Grief's ranting at PB straight after he died, suggesting it was an auto mod resolved thing rather than a quick PM from the Bride as well as the OP suggesting the Bride is always watching.

Will do a re-read later to see if there's anything else I can pick up.

[Rashan]

Galayn Lord, on 09 December 2009 - 07:58 AM, said:

Well, there was 20 minutes between the reveal and the death scene. That's pretty fast.

I will go under the assumption that the Bride's daykill ability is not passive, so it means the Bride saw it right away and sent the PM. Since there is no mod post between the reveal and the scene, though, we can't be sure about that.

Here are the players that were posting during the reveal: Kalse, Tellan, Sorrit, Korbas.

But, more important IMO, the posters that posted shortly before the reveal, did not post between the reveal and the scene, and posted again some time after: Liosan, Fener.

If was the Bride and saw the reveal, I would act like the people in the second group. It's not the strongest argument, but it's the only kind of lead I can see for now.

Of the two I find Liosan the most likely candidate, I won't quote the whole thing but you can go back and see his posts before, and some time after the events



vote Liosan

This was the first thing that I thought too. If we could figure out a way to determine if the Kill was automatic or not, I would think that this is sound logic. If the Kill is automatic tho.. that renders this plan moot. Not willing to drop a vote yet, but down the line if we can determint that this reveal/kill mechanism isn't automatic, then we at least have a starting point.

[Liosan]

Rashan, it's explained a few posts down.

[Tellan]

Don't like all the assumptions flying around. GLs vote and Mockras plan both rely on them.

Personally, I suspect the kill was a game mechanic.

If it's not, it could be used to figure out the bride, and so I doubt PB put something like that in.
Secondly, why would the bride kill so close after the reveal if it had to be activated by her? She would know speculation would follow, and surely try to use that to some kind of advantage. Or why not let us lynch and use the kill elsewhere?
Just doesn't work for me, I would say it's more likely a mechanic. After all rules say "the bride is always watching" which is obviously untrue if the bride has to be on for the power to be activated.

[Eloth]

Reading back there still seems to be some confusion about the whole Mockras plan/Fener vote thing.

Just to clear it up for me at least, Mockra plan is dumb. And I don't think anyone is going to seriously look at it.

However what happened after Mockra posted his plan, was Fener's reply to it implied the Assassin was a member of the Vipers which is new infomation to me thus the vote.


As to the thought of a FM, well I don't think we can rule it out at this point, also since we don't get a full CF its going to mighty hard to spot, I think most FM's seem to be picked up by alt guesses on the CF.

Spites kill is weird - I think I agree with Rashan with it being a game mechanic at this point it seemed to happen almost straight away. I could see something like, "If someone reveals The Bride automatically day vigs but loses their Night Kill?" Also a thought, the Mod has said no Mod kills at all, so what happens if someone doesn't call The Bride, The Bride? Are they Killed by the Bride as well? I guess they are, so I don't think we should try and find out mind you. That also makes me think it would be some sort of automatic mechanic.

I'm off to bed and will be back in 10 or so hours I hope, at the moment i'm leaving my vote on Fener as its what I like best at the moment, there's been a bunch of other people mentioned but I'm going to have to reread them to see what I make of it since we have oodles of time at the moment.

[Rashan]

Kinda Piecing together what I have read so far. Mockra seems to be in the middle of it all. I think Kara and Tellan might be on to something. Meaning that Mockra might be symping Barghast. He comes out with his game imploding plan to see how it's received. Kinda back tracks Then says he's just being retarded. Calls himself a jackass and then goes after Fener for his reaction.

Mockra, on 09 December 2009 - 08:41 AM, said:

I didn't say my plan was workable, I was just being a jackass really.

However, Fener, it technically WOULD be testable, i.e., I could (for example, I am not actually revealing) reveal as "Elle". Maybe the bride automatically reacts to an "I'm a viper" reveal and day vigs that person. This would be rather solid information. And if it DIDNT work, then nothing would be lost actually. Obviously, it wouldn't even be POSSIBLE for all non-vipers to reveal at once, so that we would all die or whatever. Who is strawmanning?

But EITHER WAY, as Eloth said, goofy plan or not, big assumptions or not, YOUR REACTION is really dodgy.

Then, even though he has already said his plan is silly, He's willing to test it. To me this screams symp. What better way to get your stupid "outing" plan working than to test it, if the bride is on your side, she'll do whatever you want. We then go on with the plan and basically out the Vipers...

Mockra, on 09 December 2009 - 08:56 AM, said:

Hell, I'm willing to personally test it if you want. If PS is confirmed as being around, I'll fake reveal as a viper. If I'm killed almost immediately, you'll have your answer. If I live, you have another answer.

The Bride is Watching YOU sounds to me like some sort of 24 hour surveillance threat, which sounds more like a game rule than an individual day vig ability.

Reposting Kara's post because if Mockra is a Symp, this case can be made that Barghaast is the one he is symping.

Karatallid, on 09 December 2009 - 02:01 PM, said:

Mockra, on 08 December 2009 - 04:14 AM, said:

Barghast, on 08 December 2009 - 03:57 AM, said:

I am here now.

I thought Fener was accusing Shadow of saying they were the assassin through emote use, but then what do I know. However, it is Fener so he may be a good choice.

Not a lot going on other than spam about dragonsex and your momma jokes otherwise.

Vote Barghast

It's been a while since I've seen such a wishy-washy-hedging-summarizing-dont-ruffle-feathers post.

Barghast, on 08 December 2009 - 04:27 AM, said:

Mockra, on 08 December 2009 - 04:14 AM, said:

Barghast, on 08 December 2009 - 03:57 AM, said:

I am here now.

I thought Fener was accusing Shadow of saying they were the assassin through emote use, but then what do I know. However, it is Fener so he may be a good choice.

Not a lot going on other than spam about dragonsex and your momma jokes otherwise.

Vote Barghast

It's been a while since I've seen such a wishy-washy-hedging-summarizing-dont-ruffle-feathers post.

Really? What games have you been playing?

Mockra, on 08 December 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

I've been playing mafia games!


Common man, read your own post. WEAK!


Remove Vote

Im back. No kill last night was nice. I went back over the thread, and the above posts seem to really stand out to me. Mockras vote seemed to be a serious vote, the barghast responds with, what games have you been playing, and thats enough to get mockra to remove his vote. What strikes me as odd, is Mockra was voting Barghast for being wishy washy, and middle of the road. Then suddenly Mockra is being wishy washy himself. Looks like it might be signalling. Im still re-reading, but thought this needed some attention.

He calls the plan dumb, he says he's a jack ass but after a page of it being shot down, he's still talking about it. Why are you pushing this so hard Mockra?

Mockra, on 09 December 2009 - 02:03 PM, said:

Let me spell this out for the slow ones. This scenario ONLY WORKS if the vipers can communicate with each other, AND revealing as a viper = an auto kill.

My retard plan in full:

1. All non-vipers reveal, one at a time and are killed by the bride.

2. That leaves only the vipers, the bride and the assassin alive.

3. Vipers lynch the bride and the assassin (in whatever order they feel like)

4. Town drinks vodka to celebrate (HD will be jealous for not playing)


The reason I voted Fener (and Eloth saw it too) is Fener came on and said something basically to the effect of the bride and assassin would be able to cruise with this scenario, indicating he knows something about those roles. Eloth says it better below.



*snip* (basically it's Eloth Quote on why he voted Fener.)

Then Tellan Spots this. The Barghast reaction does come off very self righteous. Fitting in with the Mockra symping of Barghast.

Tellan, on 09 December 2009 - 04:33 PM, said:

Barghast, on 09 December 2009 - 02:37 AM, said:

I see we've already greatly lessened our chances of winning. Good job guys. Both one of the Bride's targets and a likely roled character down before the day one lynch.

Can't say I like this post.

Barghast conviniently avoids the argument at the time, and then comes in righteously after the fact.

It's a post that looks designed to make himself look more innocent by coming in agressively on spites death after the event, a safe position after we know he's a viper.

It does't contribute in any way whatsoever as it's just attacking those who were actually contributing at the time, after he's knows that spite was a viper, it doesn't advance the game at all, it just serves to make him look better.

vote barghast

So it's Day 1 part Deux. and this seems just a little too coincidental for me. I'm not against a Fener vote at this point, I am not against any vote at this point, but for now

vote Barghast



Thats my one big post for the day, back to work. i can be off and on for snippets of the day, but no extended time. I am not married to this vote, but as far as Day 1/2' s go.. I have felt worse about my votes.

If Time permits I will go back and look at some of Bargys other posts to see if it meshes with this. If it doesn't I'll remove. It's still early and I don't think a speed lynch is in our best interests.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 19 hours and 51 minutes remain.

17 players still alive: Alkend, Barghast, D'riss, Eloth, Fener, Galayn Lord, Hood's Path, Kalse, Karatallid, Korbas, Liosan, Mockra, Olar Ethil, Rashan, Shadow, Sorrit, Tellan

9 votes are required to lynch.

2 Votes Fener (Mockra, Eloth)
1 Vote Liosan (Galayn Lord)
1 Vote Mockra (Karatallid)
1 Vote Sorrit (Shadow)
2 Votes Barghast (Tellan, Rashan)

Not voted: Alkend, Barghast, D'riss, Fener, Hood's Path, Kalse, Korbas, Liosan, Olar Ethil, Sorrit

---

[Sorrit]

@Rashan: I'm not entirely sure how you connect Mockra's behaviour today with Barghast. Are you implying that he's trying to divert attention or something?

@Liosan: The staying in alt rule is something that should be enforced in an FM game to give the FM a chance. If the FM jumps to someone and the person who died is CFed or posts in SH, then it gives a hint as to which alt the FM has jumped to. You can focus your search on alts who sounded like the dead player.

[Liosan]

Fair enough, that makes sense.

[Tellan]

Sorrit, on 09 December 2009 - 06:18 PM, said:

@Rashan: I'm not entirely sure how you connect Mockra's behaviour today with Barghast. Are you implying that he's trying to divert attention or something?

@Liosan: The staying in alt rule is something that should be enforced in an FM game to give the FM a chance. If the FM jumps to someone and the person who died is CFed or posts in SH, then it gives a hint as to which alt the FM has jumped to. You can focus your search on alts who sounded like the dead player.

Though realisitcally you can do this without the persons account name-just by comparing posts with the posts the alt has made.

Off for a bit.

[Rashan]

Sorrit, on 09 December 2009 - 06:18 PM, said:

@Rashan: I'm not entirely sure how you connect Mockra's behaviour today with Barghast. Are you implying that he's trying to divert attention or something?

@Liosan: The staying in alt rule is something that should be enforced in an FM game to give the FM a chance. If the FM jumps to someone and the person who died is CFed or posts in SH, then it gives a hint as to which alt the FM has jumped to. You can focus your search on alts who sounded like the dead player.

Kara made the Connection from Mockra to Barghast.

His behavior today has nothing to do with that. His behavior today suggests symp to me. Ie. "Lets all reveal!!" "I'll test it first and see if the bride Kills me!!" I'm just saying that it would be easy for a symp to say this and "test" it knowing what his master will do.

If it is symp behavior, as Kara pointed out it is most likely symping of Barghast based upon previous, completely unrelated posts.

Still need to go back to Bargys posts tho.

[D'riss]

Tellan, on 09 December 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

Sorrit, on 09 December 2009 - 06:18 PM, said:

@Rashan: I'm not entirely sure how you connect Mockra's behaviour today with Barghast. Are you implying that he's trying to divert attention or something?

@Liosan: The staying in alt rule is something that should be enforced in an FM game to give the FM a chance. If the FM jumps to someone and the person who died is CFed or posts in SH, then it gives a hint as to which alt the FM has jumped to. You can focus your search on alts who sounded like the dead player.

Though realisitcally you can do this without the persons account name-just by comparing posts with the posts the alt has made.

Off for a bit.

Or by comparing timezones. I remember when DK got caught out for not spelling Emurlahn correctly after the alt he took over always did, was pretty funny.


Have to agree, Mockra's plan is not that great and his willingness to jump into it seems a little too pro-town, especially with the number of assumptions that his plan involves. If someone wants to test the bride's insta-kill they're welcome to, but I think if someone does decide to, they should 1) make sure a mod is around first and 2) make sure none of the possible bride-by-timing suspects are around, else we wont actually learn anything.

[Sorrit]

Shadow, on 09 December 2009 - 03:50 PM, said:

So I did a re-read from page 3, and you know who stands out to me?
Sorrit.
Sure, Tellan was in a pissing match with Spite. Why did Sorrit jump in there? Why did he feel the need to be involved, meanwhile I don't think Sorrit voted.
Then, he vanishes until a little earlier today, when he starts spouting off about a FM. Sowing confusion and paranoia? Quite happy with that implosion from Spite, and now are trying to turn people who possibly know of each other against each other?

Vote Sorrit

I also agree with Korbas's post 380 (6 posts up) in its entirety. Look, now I'm symping him too!

On Day 1, you have to talk about whatever comes up. I thought Tellan was barking up the wrong tree to start, and said so. As the argument went on, Spite looked more and more suspicious as he started to make less and less sense, so I talked about that as well. I'm not going to sit back and pretend that their spat is not going on if I happen to be online at the time.

As far as I'm concerned, it's far better to be aware of the possibility of an FM and be pleasantly surprised when one doesn't appear than it is to go through the game oblivious to the possibility. It's very difficult to spot FM if you're not actually looking for them, after all. I feel mentioning it was worth the risk.

[Sorrit]

Tellan, on 09 December 2009 - 06:23 PM, said:

Sorrit, on 09 December 2009 - 06:18 PM, said:

@Rashan: I'm not entirely sure how you connect Mockra's behaviour today with Barghast. Are you implying that he's trying to divert attention or something?

@Liosan: The staying in alt rule is something that should be enforced in an FM game to give the FM a chance. If the FM jumps to someone and the person who died is CFed or posts in SH, then it gives a hint as to which alt the FM has jumped to. You can focus your search on alts who sounded like the dead player.

Though realisitcally you can do this without the persons account name-just by comparing posts with the posts the alt has made.

Off for a bit.

Well, not really - you'd expect the FM to try and change his posting style every jump to match the previous inhabitant of the alt. So you're looking for inconsistencies. But when you know the identity of the previous inhabitant, that lets you narrow down the range of alts whose posts you look at. But yeah, the point is that the town knowing the identities of the people the FM kills is a disadvantage to the FM.

[Galayn Lord]

Tellan, on 09 December 2009 - 05:15 PM, said:

Don't like all the assumptions flying around. GLs vote and Mockras plan both rely on them.

Personally, I suspect the kill was a game mechanic.

If it's not, it could be used to figure out the bride, and so I doubt PB put something like that in.
Secondly, why would the bride kill so close after the reveal if it had to be activated by her? She would know speculation would follow, and surely try to use that to some kind of advantage. Or why not let us lynch and use the kill elsewhere?
Just doesn't work for me, I would say it's more likely a mechanic. After all rules say "the bride is always watching" which is obviously untrue if the bride has to be on for the power to be activated.

Well, you always have to make some assumptions in a game like this, but I get the point. The speed of the whole thing is what gets me, because it shows that if it is a Bride action, then she reacted way faster than it was intelligent for her to do. So either it's automated, either she has a window of opportunity to take advantage of it, or she was totally lurking at the time which makes my mini-case moot in any case.

If it's automated, I still want to repeat that "the Bride is always watching" is related to quoting your role PM on thread, not revealing, so unless Spite a moron that didn't read his role PM properly, there was no warning against this when I consider there should have been one.

I see and understand the symping that is being mentioned, but there's a few reasons I'm not a big fan of voting on those, and even more so in this game.

[Galayn Lord]

About the FM, the lack of death last night does not imply FM activity as I've read in some post BTW, since a FM has to leave his old alt to enter the new one, we would still register it as a kill.

[Galayn Lord]

Urgh, that last post of mine has some shitty grammar that I don't feel like editing. I hope you get my meaning.