[Cougar]

in the spirit of what tehol says, you have PM.

[D'rek]

Anomander, on 09 December 2009 - 05:42 PM, said:

caladanbrood, on 09 December 2009 - 02:45 PM, said:

I for one am no fan of the 4chan-ness of the board, though that has actually decreased significantly in the last 6 months, so maybe we're headed in the right direction already. Though maybe that's just because I don't visit the silly pictures thread - if that is the case then at least it is contained, and warnings can be applied.

A noticeable upside to getting rid of the bulk of pic threads.

I've not much to add at this point which hasn't already been said but I can see a problem arising with this "General Book Forum" idea. As it stands a fair number of the book related forums suffer from a lack of use, in particular the ones for GotM, DG, etc. While I think reorganizing the layout will help some we risk having a long term problem with most of the book related discussions happening in one place. I know it'll start off as "this doesn't fit anywhere else" but you could probably say that for a lot of discussions which span more than one book. Now I haven't frequented the book forums much but just how many topics fit that description now?

I do like Sombra's idea of alerting new members to the spoiler system in the greeting message.

Is that really a problem though? Just because there isn't a new thread in each book forum every day doesn't mean the current organization system is bad. I actually really like the current system because for new members, every single thread already in there is an unread thread, so as they finish each book they have at least a few pages worth of unread threads to go through. But that's far, far superior to them having to skim through 20 pages of a massive multi-book forum to find only the good discussion threads relevant to the book they just finished. While we up-to-date members don't have much use for the pages of old threads in the book discussions, its a well-organized sequential goldmine for people working their way through the series.

*goes and checks user list*

and there are a handful of people reading old book discussion threads right this instant!

[amphibian]

Cougar, on 09 December 2009 - 05:54 PM, said:

My point about it actually being a bit pointless to ask the forum is perfectly valid as your post illustrates , like I said some time ago, asking the people here can only produce a result based on people who weren't put off so it only goes so far. Nevertheless through some of the arguing a lot of good points have come out.

I am all for the full speed ahead implementation of these changes. Of course, I am not doing any of the work and have the luxury of standing by the sidelines and hollering while y'all carry the rock to the end zone.

In this case, I think the proposed changes are really good and the necessary fine-tuning will only come after implementation.

Quote

we need to work through this stuff cos I for one do not want a repeat of the debacle involving the Naina thread, nobody came out of that with a shred of dignity intact, not any of us.

Naina wrote a great piece about the series and her experience with it. I was all for inviting her to come and post here - and she did! Hopefully, she'll come back around now and then, with a friend or two.

I did not know about the borderline racist stuff, and it's somewhat of a testament to the mods doing their work like ninjas that it disappeared so quickly. The disappearance of those posts did make the angry mod posts appear to come out of nowhere and I hope y'all can handle that off-screen a bit more in the future.

[Abyss]

caladanbrood, on 09 December 2009 - 02:45 PM, said:

... but we have user groups, the Abyssmal army, High House Mafia, and what are they is not actively organised cliques?...

Just to be clear. the Abyssmal Army is most definitely NOT a clique. It's a cult. It abducts, brainwashs, reprograms and cheerfully exploits. No mere clique could do that nearly as effectively or stylishly.

Mezla PigDog, on 09 December 2009 - 03:58 PM, said:

...I vote for ditching user groups. The Mafia and Abyssmal groups seem like terrifying cults to me.

Don't be silly, it's just a clique.

Jusentantaka, on 09 December 2009 - 06:22 PM, said:

...I'm also not girley either, I like my nerdery and rock climbing, martial arts, sky diving and other unwomanly pursuits as much as shoes, dresses and perfume. And I'm smutty... which is possibly a direct result of the Dark Ages of the Interweb. ...

Jusen', that's another $10.00. Did you want us to start running you a tab?



When all's said and done, what we're discussing here is how the forum works now and how it might work in the future. We can try stuff. If it doesn't work, we can try other stuff. Throw enough poo at the wall and eventually something sticks. This analogy is failing. The point being i don't think there's much we can do that will irretrievably torpedo all things forumesque (short of giving Apt admin status).

There's no need for consensus, since Hetan and Mal own the place and what they decide ulitmately carries the day, but it would seem that notwithstanding discussion/disagreement upthread, we more or less agree

- that the order of MBF book forums should be reversed;
- that sticking Braven Tooth's Taco Emporium up at the top is a good step; and,
- that the Abyssmal Army is not a cult and should receive all your money.


We're all over the place on the 'general book forum' discussion. I suggest we shelve that one and see if the Braven Tooth's Tattoo Parlour satisfies the entry-level need and that the most recent book subforum continue to be the 'everything goes' forum for the moment. It seems to me that any general questions like 'where can i find the book', 'what book do i start with?' 'who is this ICE guy?' and 'where can i get a tattoo of a nekkid Karsa Orlong in Thule, Greenland?' will fit in Braven Tooth's in any event.

- Abyss, reminds you that the Abyssmal Army happily accepts new disciples lackeys recruits thralls organ donors processing cogbrainz incubators members.

[Salt-Man Z]

The only concern I'd have with Braven Tooth's Pancake House is to make it super obvious that it's the "new members" forum. I'm not sure giving it a goofy in-fiction name is the best way to do that.

[D'rek]

Salt-Man Z, on 09 December 2009 - 10:09 PM, said:

The only concern I'd have with Braven Tooth's Pancake House is to make it super obvious that it's the "new members" forum. I'm not sure giving it a goofy in-fiction name is the best way to do that.

Well the forums have subtitles, so it should be clear enough if the subtitle is "The Place for New Members" or something like that. On that note, though, I definitely think Braven Tooth's Slip'N'Slide should be a forum in itself, as it'll be a lot less visible if it is a subforum...

[Tapper]

A downside could be that Braven Tooth's All you Can Eat becomes a bit of a seperate community, with its members only being noticed once they make the Big Jump into the rest of the forums? I know I hardly visit the new member thread, for one (although that also has to do with having to log back and forth from mafia alts), but like seeing a new face.

It would be a pity if they announced themselves in the Take Away and never got a reply from longer standing members, or if the Restaurant at the Start of the Forums is just being filled with announcement posts.

as for Mez saying HHM (amongst other user groups) should be abolished... I think all in all, we are a pretty friendly bunch and it may well be that, despite all the feuding, we have a higher ratio of female participation than the regular forum, so we too are doing good work

Usergroups may be a tad bit elitist, but reading the Abyssal forum is pure fun, and no-one I know ever got kicked from one, either, nor are they mutually exclusive or anything.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 09 December 2009 - 11:19 PM

[Jusentantaka]

Just a suggestion now that some of the changes are starting: move the wiki link up with the new people parts too. Maybe under the announcements? I thought it was helpful to have it at hand when looking through some of the more (over)analyzed topics that come up.



@Abyss: The other one I got, this time I don't gets it.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 09 December 2009 - 11:50 PM

[Grief]

Can't see disbanding HHM as making much odds tbh. I doubt all the mafia players are even added-it's not kept massively up to date. But disbanding the user group wouldn't affect the clique-which would still exist, because the clique is formed by people who all play mafia, and as a result spend lots of time talking to each other etc. The clique would remain anyway, because the same people would still be playing mafia together in the mafia forum. So yes it's a clique, it's a group who all spend a lot of time playing mafia together, and disbanding the user group wouldn't do anything-you'd have to ban the game, which is going a bit too far to avoid cliques. Of course there will be cliques-a group of people hang out together, do similar things, and bam, clique.

Also, the mafia is a friendly and welcoming group, or so I found when I started playing. Perhaps not within the games themselves, but that's just the nature of the game.

The other probem is that the groups are cliquey, and people generally do need to ask a bit to find out about them, which people may not always do.

Perhaps a sticky at the top of each group subform(or maybe one in games, incorporating mafia, diplomacy, etc) as a brief sort of guide to what it is and how to get involved?

Another problem is that people would get irritated if the user groups constantly went about trying to get people involved in the Inn or whatever. In general, it seems that if people want to know they have to ask, there's no information they can check.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The spambot is pleased! Beep.

[Cougar]

I agree that we should disband the user groups unless they are meaningful, Malazan Artists, Wiki Contributor etc are useful the rest aren't.

[D'rek]

Cougar, on 10 December 2009 - 12:04 AM, said:

I agree that we should disband the user groups unless they are meaningful, Malazan Artists, Wiki Contributor etc are useful the rest aren't.

Why is that?

Besides, the supposedly "useful" ones aren't very significant anyways - there's about 3 people in the wiki one who actively add content (by actively I mean once every 6 months or better) and yet there are plenty of other people updating the wiki who aren't in the group.

The Abyssmal Army has threads in its own subforum and there is posts in those threads. The only thing I could ask more from them is that Abyss actually get the people who like to post in there added to the actual group.

As Grief said, HHM is and does exactly what it claims to be and doesn't seem to be offending anyone. It correctly identifies people who play lots of mafia but its not like those members are acting close-minded or superior in other parts of the forum (or even in their own, they always welcome and try to guide new players).

Unless having user groups somehow massively drains the resource allocations of the forum, I can't see the downside. Take away the groups and people will still have cat avatars, Apt and Abyss will still be rivals, mafia players will stil play mafia, artists will still make art, etc

Quote

Perhaps a sticky at the top of each group subform(or maybe one in games, incorporating mafia, diplomacy, etc) as a brief sort of guide to what it is and how to get involved?

Actually Grief, the user-group forums aren't visible to people that aren't in the user groups (except Abyss'), so that wouldn't work. Perhaps a general user group forum with a thread for each group explaining what it is and then the (hidden) user group forums would all be sub-forums of that forum, which would have the added benefit of making the whole list shorter for you mods who can see everything.

[alt146]

Tapper, on 09 December 2009 - 11:17 PM, said:

A downside could be that Braven Tooth's All you Can Eat becomes a bit of a seperate community, with its members only being noticed once they make the Big Jump into the rest of the forums? I know I hardly visit the new member thread, for one (although that also has to do with having to log back and forth from mafia alts), but like seeing a new face.

It would be a pity if they announced themselves in the Take Away and never got a reply from longer standing members, or if the Restaurant at the Start of the Forums is just being filled with announcement posts.

as for Mez saying HHM (amongst other user groups) should be abolished... I think all in all, we are a pretty friendly bunch and it may well be that, despite all the feuding, we have a higher ratio of female participation than the regular forum, so we too are doing good work

Usergroups may be a tad bit elitist, but reading the Abyssal forum is pure fun, and no-one I know ever got kicked from one, either, nor are they mutually exclusive or anything.

I think the best thing about Braven Tooth's Shwarma Hut will be that you can sticky stuff like a guide to using IPB, how the spoiler policy works, what each section of the board is for, who the admin/mods are and what they do etc. Threads that we dont really have or have a place for and would go a long way to making feel a little more comforatable here. I would think there won't be much else in there other than the existing new members and what got you into the series threads in any case, I doubt people will end up only ever posting in the Used Furniture Store.

And maybe bumping a couple more ladies up to mod status will help address the gender balance? Dont know if would actually help, but it's a thought.

[Cougar]

@D'rek: personally I think you've explained why the user groups are redundant as well as I can, they are never updated and I still harbour the thought that they are rather elitists. Look at the Wheelchairs of War, Inquisition etc they are a total waste of time, nobody posts in the group forums of the Wheelchairs. Since the Abyssmal army have a fully accessible forum, then I don't see the need for the user group. Especially as most of them post their position in their info line (eg: Chief Phallus Fluffer of the Abyssmal Army). Grief's point about Mafia is also as much a point not to have them as to have them, not everyone who plays mafia is in the group and once again there is the info line being used to convey the same info. Mafia doesn't even have a subforum, just the games forum itself.

@Tapper: I doubt we need any more mods, there is only Bubba does any actual modding now- it's a ceremonial position for Abyss, Rodeo hasn't realised he is one, I use it to supress dissent against the regime, Anomander, Lish and IH are too busy with school (slackers), Grief is keeping Mafia going and Hetan and Mal are busy with the staples and sellotape making sure the wheels don't fall off the creaking portaloo that is IPB3.

[Mezla PigDog]

Salt-Man Z, on 09 December 2009 - 10:09 PM, said:

I'm not sure giving it a goofy in-fiction name is the best way to do that.

I think the forum needs a bit more goofy stuff related to the books. It's the single thing everyone who comes here has in common and it might make the place a bit more fluffy and welcoming to noobs.

Tapper, on 09 December 2009 - 11:17 PM, said:

A downside could be that Braven Tooth's All you Can Eat becomes a bit of a seperate community, with its members only being noticed once they make the Big Jump into the rest of the forums?

The onus then is on community members to make a bit of an effort. I've been trying a bit recently as I generally feel ambivalent towards newbies. I've been surprised how easy it is to be nice to be people with just a teeny bit of effort

D, on 10 December 2009 - 12:36 AM, said:

Actually Grief, the user-group forums aren't visible to people that aren't in the user groups (except Abyss'), so that wouldn't work. Perhaps a general user group forum with a thread for each group explaining what it is and then the (hidden) user group forums would all be sub-forums of that forum, which would have the added benefit of making the whole list shorter for you mods who can see everything.

Well that's the first reason to get rid of the user groups! There are parts of the forum that I can't see because I'm not part of a clique? Well I never knew that.

I think they just add unnecessary barriers. The friendships will still be here even without the group name. I never go in the Abyssmal Army forum because I don't like getting cat fur on my clothes but I do miss Abyss' sig series. Perhaps they would be perfect for a General forum that is more friendly and less prone to descend into piss taking? Things like Gamet's Book of the Forum would have been good in there too (I miss those ).

[Tapper]

Cougar, on 10 December 2009 - 10:04 AM, said:

@Tapper: I doubt we need any more mods, there is only Bubba does any actual modding now

Sorry for being pedantic without wanting to be, but that's adressed at alt146, right?

Anyway, there's nothing in the HHM subforum that can't be put in the mafia subforum, I'll agree with that.
I just happen to like the green HHM tag

[Cougar]

@Tapper, yeah it was and I don't think you are being pedantic! But still...

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[Hetan]

One more reason for possibly not having User Groups - as I mentioned before the Reputation Comments Hook will only allow one group to see the comments and the name of the person who left it. Now, my theory is that as everyone starts as a Malaz Regular and then are divided into User Groups (if they choose), the Malaz Regular group SHOULD over-ride the forum user group whereby all members should be able to read the comments and who left them (except Admin staff - yes I know, it sucks to be us). Unfortunately it's not been possible to test that out in practice in the Sandbox yet as there aren't enough members in there

I'll create some non-existent members in there I guess and see how it works out, but if it doesn't then we're pretty much left with the Malaz Regulars only who can use the reputation comment system.

I like Jusi's point about the FAQ - have been thinking along those lines myself. (Hope you don't mind my shortening your name that way but I just can't get my tongue around the spelling )

[Lisheo]

I'm just going to add a few comments on the matter.
First of all, I notice there's a lot of discussions about the actual "mood" for want of a better term, of the forum. Honestly, I don't really think we can actually change this. On ANY forum, cliques develop among people who know each other. If anything, I think we are one of the most welcoming communities I've been a part of, I find Westeros far more daunting, for example. However, I've been here for nearly three years now, which might make me a little biased. Perhaps the biggest problem joining the community is the fact that some people are sheer libraries of Malaz-lore, it could be a little intimidating; I don't really think the off-topic Inn being an active forum is going to put anyone off. However, it'd be pretty easy to set the Inn to be invisible to guests, and maybe leave a message saying it exists on the board.
To me, the usergroups don't REALLY matter. The Abyssmal Army doesn't actually have any visible effect apart from showing that Abyss is something of a celebrity around here, which is hard to miss even without the group, let's face it. I remember looking at Abyss with awe in my early days, before the usergroups existed. They're just a fun thing to have, anyone can join them.
That said, I think a "General" forum would be very useful, if just for a place to put "RAKE IS BETTER THAN X" threads, or "Characters in the Malazan Movie" threads etc, etc. Anything that isn't serious discussion of the books, and is just a bit of fun.
Braventooth's Underground Bunker sounds like a good plan to me, as well. The New Members thread is a long, stickied thread that not many people look at. If we put a Braventooth forum, it may make new members feel more welcome. The New Member thread seems a little like an off-hand, meh, kind of thing.
When it comes to women on the forum, well, honestly, I don't think we're that bad, but then, I'm a guy...
The 4chan-like atmosphere, in my opinion, is unavoidable. Like it or not, 4chan is pretty much a hub of content for the net, or was, and it has had an effect on online culture. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but like Facebook and Myspace, even if you hate it, you can't do anything other than grin and bear it.

That all said, I notice a lot of heated debating, suggesting criticism of the mod team, attitudes, etc, and I've seen it pop up around the forum several times. In all honesty, we have our hands full with the site. We all have lives, like you guys, but we also have to deal with the day-to-day mechanics of the forum, oiling the wheels, making sure this place runs smoothly. This site is one of the best I've ever been to, with regards to security, options available to members, moderation atmosphere etc. True, certain staff are more visible (I'm not going to name names, but his name has a C, ends with R, and has ougar in the middle), but in all honesty, that just means he's more active and vocal in discussions, not that he's a tyrant striking down forum members left right and centre. The only difference between you guys and him is he has to delete all the crap and ban all the spambots. Without him, I imagine the forum would suffer a sharp decline in quality.

Anyway. Feel free to agree or disagree.

[D'rek]

Cougar, on 10 December 2009 - 10:04 AM, said:

@D'rek: personally I think you've explained why the user groups are redundant as well as I can, they are never updated and I still harbour the thought that they are rather elitists. Look at the Wheelchairs of War, Inquisition etc they are a total waste of time, nobody posts in the group forums of the Wheelchairs. Since the Abyssmal army have a fully accessible forum, then I don't see the need for the user group. Especially as most of them post their position in their info line (eg: Chief Phallus Fluffer of the Abyssmal Army). Grief's point about Mafia is also as much a point not to have them as to have them, not everyone who plays mafia is in the group and once again there is the info line being used to convey the same info. Mafia doesn't even have a subforum, just the games forum itself.

Well, I can't see the Wheelchairs or Inquisition, so I'll take your word for their lack of traffic which seems entirely believable since most of them have 1 or 2 members. But, that's a major symptom of their only recruiting grounds being in the Inn, which is much more densely populated with gruffy old members who are content in their places than new and impressionable members who might be interested in joining a new user group. Once the general forum is created (or a user-group-info/recruiting forum), they'd have a much better area to do so. Just as we're trying to make the forum more welcoming to new folks but without getting rid of the Inn, I think the same principles can be applied to welcoming new(ish) people into the user groups rather than deleting them.

Though right now I'm envisioning an elimination contest - tell the user groups they have 2 months at the end of which whatever group has recruited the least new members gets deleted.

re HHM subforum: its the Mafia Addicts Anonymous subsubforum in the Mafia subforum and is visible only to HHM, Game Alts, Adjudicator, Mods, Supermods and Admins. Sure the threads in there don't get updated all that regularly, but its another 4 sticky threads that would be added into the mafia forum and make that forum just a wall of stickies, and most of those threads do not need to be read often or by most people. I could also note that the most recent post in MAA is just as old as the most recent in the wiki forum...